101 replies to this topic

[MibJab]

In 475 Red Wings games, Cleary has 109 goals and 135 assists for 244 points. Does he get a free pass too, since his numbers are comparable? I'm sick and tired of Franzen getting a free pass because everyone wrongly assumes his numbers are great. They're good...not great. Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom all have better numbers than Franzen, both playoff and regular season, and we expect each of them to bring an A game every night. If our stars don't get a pass for producing, neither should anybody else.

I think you mis-understood my posting of Franzen's stats. I think they are horrible for the type of role he is supposed to be playing. Cleary's to add, for that matter. The only free pass Franzen should be getting is the ride to the airport to another team..

[atodaso]

I think you mis-understood my posting of Franzen's stats. I think they are horrible for the type of role he is supposed to be playing. Cleary's to add, for that matter. The only free pass Franzen should be getting is the ride to the airport to another team..

I understand what you're trying to say but those stats you posted are a bit skewed. Remember, Franzen broke out as a legitimate sniper in March of '08. If we look at his stats since then they are actually pretty good. 253 games, 110 goals, 92 assists, for 202 points. That's roughly 0.8 PPG. Not to mention his playoff scoring (especially in '08). I guess the point here is that there's more to a hockey player than just stats. If in 50 years someone who never actually watched NHL hockey from our time compared Cleary's and Franzen's stats to this point they might think they were fairly similar players. Franzen might still be putting up decent numbers but he's far from the player he was in those '08 playoffs. Then again, this whole team is far from that team so...

[GoalieManPat]

I guess the point here is that there's more to a hockey player than just stats.

I agree. But what exactly does Franzen bring to the table other than his stats? Hes big but doesn't use his size. He doesn't intimidate other players. He doesn't use it to hit players as hes usually coasting while they are skating. He doesn't use it to stick up for his teammates other than maybe a facewash in a scrum. Heck the most aggressive thing hes done is assault Patrick Kanes mouth-guard. He doesn't bring leadership intangibles to the team. You'd never see the recent team leaders (Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Yzerman, Zetterberg, Draper, etc) coast like he does as often as he does.

Its 100% obvious the contract and success he attained has gotten to his head. For how much he has progressed as a player since he came into the league he has regressed the same amount in where his in game work ethic was at.

[Z Winged Dangler]

So if he drops down to the 3rd or 4th line (which I really doubt will last longer then pre-game skate) who takes his place? Nobody else is really filling the net.

Give Helm a shot. His speed could open things up for the high end skilled guys. Homer was on a line with Dats and Z to do the exact same thing, but Helm can actually hang on to the puck and do more than deflections and screen.

[kipwinger]

I think you mis-understood my posting of Franzen's stats. I think they are horrible for the type of role he is supposed to be playing. Cleary's to add, for that matter. The only free pass Franzen should be getting is the ride to the airport to another team..

Yeah, I definitely misunderstood you. I'm so used to hearing the excuse "but he's great in the playoffs" that maybe I'm just a little too defensive now. Anyway, sorry to jump your case.

[kipwinger]

I understand what you're trying to say but those stats you posted are a bit skewed. Remember, Franzen broke out as a legitimate sniper in March of '08. If we look at his stats since then they are actually pretty good. 253 games, 110 goals, 92 assists, for 202 points. That's roughly 0.8 PPG. Not to mention his playoff scoring (especially in '08). I guess the point here is that there's more to a hockey player than just stats. If in 50 years someone who never actually watched NHL hockey from our time compared Cleary's and Franzen's stats to this point they might think they were fairly similar players. Franzen might still be putting up decent numbers but he's far from the player he was in those '08 playoffs. Then again, this whole team is far from that team so...

Good point. 50 years from now everybody will remember that Franzen had comparable, yet slightly better numbers than Cleary did during the same time period, and worked about 1/3 as hard per shift. You're right, stats don't tell the whole story. And with Franzen the whole story is: talented yet opportunistic scorer with less than desirable work ethic, who posted moderately impressive numbers in spite of his own laziness, on the best/one of the best offensive teams in each year of his entire career. Such a write up puts him in the same category as other illustrious Red Wings. Notably, Keith Primeau and Robert Lang.

[Z and D for the C]

would not only missed half the 2010 season due to rehab, but would also be a potential risk due to other injuries.

Um, Franzen played 27 games in 09-10. And he was a "one year rental"? Even using the phrase "rental" completely wrong, what does that have to do with anything? The only possible thing you can say about Franzen is that he had a couple playoffs where he performed better than Hossa, but what you're forgetting is that just because Hossa isn't scoring goals doesn't mean he isn't doing anything. He provides so much more beyond goal scoring that Franzen doesn't. Defense, speed, back checking, work ethic, play making. Hossa is twice the player Franzen will ever be.

Edited by Z and D for the C, 28 February 2012 - 11:32 AM.

[Doc Holliday]

Um, Franzen played 27 games in 09-10. And he was a "one year rental"? Even using the phrase "rental" completely wrong, what does that have to do with anything? The only possible thing you can say about Franzen is that he had a couple playoffs where he performed better than Hossa, but what you're forgetting is that just because Hossa isn't scoring goals doesn't mean he isn't doing anything. He provides so much more beyond goal scoring that Franzen doesn't. Defense, speed, back checking, work ethic, play making. Hossa is twice the player Franzen will ever be.

I'm glad you missed the entire point of the whole "signing Hossa or Franzen" aspect of my post.

The entire point was because of his shoulder injury, he was GUARANTEED to miss half the season due to rehab. Franzen wasn't.

Hossa's "other attributes" did not do much to help Detroit in the post season. That is an issue despite the fact he was able to score 40 goals.

His best year happened to be alongside arguably the best center today. He hasn't replicated that performance, or even come close since.

Also, Franzen signed before the season ended, while Hossa took longer to negotiate a contract. Holland wasn't about to risk losing BOTH Franzen and Hossa by waiting on a deal for him.

Finally, the "one year rental" aspect, if you bothered to bring it into context, makes the point of Holland being loyal to players he drafted and included in the system. Hossa came by for one year, and Franzen worked his ass off to make it to the top line. Did anyone expect him to start floating? Absolutely not.

Point being, the entire point was that Hossa was not an easy choice, and if not for the Hudler debacle, Hossa AND Franzen could have been signed.

Funny how people forget that.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 28 February 2012 - 01:23 PM.

[arag]

Hossa is ineffective in post season. Franzen is.
Just be patient and you will see.
Go Wings !

[Z and D for the C]

We signed Franzen early in 2009 if I recall correctly. Hossa signed with Chicago July 1st. It took one day for Chicago to deal with Hossa. I guarantee that we could have come to terms with Hossa had we not signed Franzen. And even if we didn't, we would have had plenty of time to sign Franzen if talks broke down with Hossa. There was zero chance of losing both. There was no reason to sign Franzen so early. It was a complete blunder by Holland, and I'm no Holland basher.

And yes, I forgot about his off season shoulder surgery. You're still not going to not sign elite talent just because they're going to miss a few months in the beginning of the season.

And we got to game 7 of the Stanley Cup finals with an injured team with much less motivation than Pittsburgh after winning the cup the year before. Hossa, while maybe not scoring as many goals as expected had some key goals and played well. People need to stop blaming him. Our entire team broke down after winning the first two games of the finals.

[Esquire]

Wings' Johan Franzen dropped to third line

Columbus, Ohio — Johan Franzen was dropped to the third line with Darren Helm and Drew Miller for Tuesday's game against the Columbus Blue Jackets.

"We had nothing going on, and usually that's what happens," Franzen said of the change.

The big winger hasn't gotten a point in four games and has three points (two goals, one assist) in his last eight games.

Franzen leads the Wings with 23 goals. He has 24 assists for a total of 47 points and is plus-21.

Coach Mike Babcock didn't single out Franzen but instead cast a net over an entire Wings team that hasn't won in its last three games (0-2-1).

"They key to that is we need everyone playing at their best," Babcock said.

[GoWings1905]

"We had nothing going on." Well yes, that's what tends to happen when you float around.

Edited by GoWings1905, 28 February 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[jeff48109]

Point being, the entire point was that Hossa was not an easy choice, and if not for the Hudler debacle, Hossa AND Franzen could have been signed.

Funny how people forget that.

i have forgotten the details, how did Hudler (I'm guessing the dispute the NHL had when he signed a contract with a KHL team) stop Hossa from being signed?

[Doc Holliday]

i have forgotten the details, how did Hudler (I'm guessing the dispute the NHL had when he signed a contract with a KHL team) stop Hossa from being signed?

Hudler was an RFA, so Holland spent the majority of the offseason trying to come to a deal with him.

Hudler walked, so Detroit had to pick up scraps to fill the cap space.

Franzen was not a blunder. The guy has performed very well for us so far pointwise, and is sporting a low 3.9 million dollar cap hit.

Hossa is paid more and it was not known if he would be able to pick up his play (3 goals and 15 points in 2010 isn't cutting it) from the 2009 post-season.

You can split hairs about how one deal was better than the other, but you have to understand Holland can't think of his roster in such near-sighted terms. Franzen had an affordable deal on the table and came to an agreement.

It's all hindsight, and the only thing people have against Franzen to date is his work ethic. The guy is producing at a normal clip and as the cap rises his salary looks cheaper.

[T.Low]

i have forgotten the details, how did Hudler (I'm guessing the dispute the NHL had when he signed a contract with a KHL team) stop Hossa from being signed?

The fact that the Wings didn't bother going after Hossa because the committment was to Franzen and Hudler, while letting Sammy and Hossa walk. IF Holland had known that little fahker was going to Russia, he could have entertained the idea of keeping Hossa.


I like Hossa too and wish we could have kept him somehow. But lets not forget that Franzen was drafted as a checker, and only after the Canucks took Alex Edler before the Wings could. And he is currently tied with Hossa at 24 goals, while Hossa has 10 more assists becasue he plays with actual goal scorers, which Datsyuk and Zetterberg are surely not.

Edited by T.Low, 28 February 2012 - 11:38 PM.

[NHLrules?]

Just remember Hossaf****** sucked here. Franzen is clutch and clutch is everything.

I didnt here you a holes bitching and moaning in 2008 when Franzen was hotter than whale s***.

Settle down everything will be ok.

[dat's sick]

Just remember Hossaf****** sucked here. Franzen is clutch and clutch is everything.

I didnt here you a holes bitching and moaning in 2008 when Franzen was hotter than whale s***.

Settle down everything will be ok.

Hossa was awesome in the regular season. He had a mediocre playoffs though, but both him and Datsyuk were playing injured I believe (Hossa had surgery in the off-season).

I agree with the sentiment "settle down" though.

[NHLrules?]

Hossa was awesome in the regular season. He had a mediocre playoffs though, but both him and Datsyuk were playing injured I believe (Hossa had surgery in the off-season).

I agree with the sentiment "settle down" though.

Come playoff time Franzen>Hossa. We witnessed this first hand.

[GoalieManPat]

Come playoff time Franzen>Hossa. We witnessed this first hand.

They both have the same number of Cups and that's all that matters in the end. Franzen has had monster playoffs but doesn't show up for most regular season games. Despite what people say the regular season does matter. If Franzen played hard every game it would easily give the Wings 2-3 more wins a season. Those points would have been great last year giving the Wings home ice against the Sharks for that game 7. You dont think that would have made a difference? 2-3 games this year and the Wings would be sitting with a lot better lead in the division which with how good the west is its imperative the Wings get home ice as much as possible.

It basically comes down to the fact that Franzen is setting 82 games worth of bad habits. Theres no guarantee he can flip the switch come game one of the playoffs. The older he gets the more likely he is to keep up those bad habits.

[clutchngrab]

What I am upset with is that the rest of Datsyuk's prime will be stuck side by side with Franzen and Bertuzzi.

Sad, isn't it. One of the greatest active players over the last 2 or 3 years and going into the next 2 or 3 hasn't had a winger that can support his abilities. Holland is a very conservative and pedestrian GM - If he makes a deal it's usually a good one - but he has no vision or sense of team aesthetic. On top of that his loyalty to players from yesterday seems to supersede his desire to win today. I watched Janick come up today and play light years better than Erricson. I suspect replacements for Cleary are easily found as well.

This is probably the last year of this generational cup window and he has done almost nothing to make this team a true contender for the cup.

Combine all this with Babcock's inability to reward players ice time based on contribution and you have one very stale organization.

Second round exit again - if that