101 replies to this topic

[Buppy]

Good to see one of our top players become the whipping boy. All the years of idiots bitching about scrubs of marginal impact was getting stale.

I thought about interjecting some rationality, but decided it would be pointless. Those who want to hate Franzen will do so regardless. They'll overstate his flaws, downplay or outright dismiss his strengths. Once he goes on another hot streak you'll all go back to jerking off to his picture while burning Ericsson in effigy.

Goal and assist tonight. On pace for 30+ goals, and career highs in assists and points. Yeah, such awful depreciation.

[CopenhagenWing]

I'm glad you missed the entire point of the whole "signing Hossa or Franzen" aspect of my post.

The entire point was because of his shoulder injury, he was GUARANTEED to miss half the season due to rehab. Franzen wasn't.

Hossa's "other attributes" did not do much to help Detroit in the post season. That is an issue despite the fact he was able to score 40 goals.

His best year happened to be alongside arguably the best center today. He hasn't replicated that performance, or even come close since.

Also, Franzen signed before the season ended, while Hossa took longer to negotiate a contract. Holland wasn't about to risk losing BOTH Franzen and Hossa by waiting on a deal for him.

Finally, the "one year rental" aspect, if you bothered to bring it into context, makes the point of Holland being loyal to players he drafted and included in the system. Hossa came by for one year, and Franzen worked his ass off to make it to the top line. Did anyone expect him to start floating? Absolutely not.

Point being, the entire point was that Hossa was not an easy choice, and if not for the Hudler debacle, Hossa AND Franzen could have been signed.

Funny how people forget that.

A lot of people have also forgotten that Franzen was a bottom 6 checking player when he initially broke in. Nobody bitched about his work ethic back then. Blissful days...

[GoalieManPat]

A lot of people have also forgotten that Franzen was a bottom 6 checking player when he initially broke in. Nobody bitched about his work ethic back then. Blissful days...

Thats because he had a work ethic back then.

[Z Winged Dangler]

Thats because he had a work ethic back then.

Now he's a classic case of getting the big contract and turning in performances. As soon as he reached the top 6 and got his 11 year contract or whatever it was, he hit the off switch on his effort. So what he got a goal and an assist last night, that doesn't make up for his complete lack of effort the past 15 games or so. I'd rather see Franzen be a consistant player that shows his talents on a regualar basis like Datsyuk. It pisses me off that he doesn't care about the regular season cause that's how you get a better spot in the playoffs. Do any of you really want to see the Wings make it to the WCF to face probably the Canucks and lose on the road as they love to do and with all the hometown calls for the Canucks as well? Didn't think so. That's why we need Franzen to put in a little moref****** effort on a regular basis to get the Presidents Trophy and take home ice through the playoffs to the SCF. The Wings will not win a series in which they do not have home ice advantage, mark my words.

[GoalieManPat]

Goal and assist tonight. On pace for 30+ goals, and career highs in assists and points. Yeah, such awful depreciation.

There also multiple times he was easily knocked off his feet for a man his size. Then he laid on the ice for a couple extra seconds, slowly got up, and skated slower than Hudler back into the play. If he gave the same effort Dats, Z, or Helm give each game he wouldn't be on pace for 30 goals. He would be on pace for 40+ and the scoring title.

[b.shanafan14]

Goal and an assist, but even more promising: effort. He went to the net for the first time in a long time, did the things that made him successful in the past and is rewarded. First goal, crashing and swatting outside the crease, good garbage goal. Filppula goal, Franzen is down low in the slot when the shot from the point, bats it free to the front of the net. When Franzen is playing the way he should be, he is a huge factor. Problem is that he hasn't been doing those things.

Good game from the Mule, now more of the same is needed. He is on pace for 30 goals and career high in points, but he is also looking at his first 80+ game season since 2005-2006. The numbers to start the thread were not a fabrication and have not gone away. His career year was still prior to signing his big contract. That year his 59 points included 34 goals. That year his totals were achieved in 71 games, while also assuming everyone's argument of hampered play after return from injury. Consider Franzen's pace if he were playing 71 games and you're looking at 27 goals 27 assists 54 points.

He needs to pick up the pace scoring, but more pressing is the need to change his attitude and the way he plays. He started as a grinder getting garbage goals and going to the hard areas, not a floater shooting from the outside. GO FRANZEN and GO WINGS.

[kipwinger]

Good to see one of our top players become the whipping boy. All the years of idiots bitching about scrubs of marginal impact was getting stale.

I thought about interjecting some rationality, but decided it would be pointless. Those who want to hate Franzen will do so regardless. They'll overstate his flaws, downplay or outright dismiss his strengths. Once he goes on another hot streak you'll all go back to jerking off to his picture while burning Ericsson in effigy.

Goal and assist tonight. On pace for 30+ goals, and career highs in assists and points. Yeah, such awful depreciation.

I think you're right. It's obviously hard to ***** about the guy's production over the past couple of years, especially given how much we pay for it. I think the real *****, at least for me anyway, is that except in rare circumstances, I've never believed that Franzen was the kind of guy who could take a game over and completely dominate. Obviously he's had a boat load of multiple point games, but that's not what I mean. I mean a guy that works so hard every shift, that opposition defenses have to match against him, have to spend time and effort to slow him down, or have to eat s*** if they don't. What's frustrating is that it's not that he doesn't have the skill set to do it, but rather, he's just kind of lazy. To me, what makes Pav, Z, and more and more often Filppula, so dangerous is that they are skilled enough to beat you themselves, but also because you have to take them seriously on every shift, they open the ice up for their linemates. I think Franzen could play that way, but sadly doesn't. I think he's the beneficiary of a lot of hard work from the other guys. And again, you could say this about a lot of people, but in most cases they're limited by a lack of pure skill. A limit Franzen doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, 25-30 goals a year is nice, and for the money it's wonderful. But 25-30 goals a year that commands a defensive response, and makes everyone around him better would be much nicer. And the only thing stopping Franzen from being a guy like that, is Franzen himself...which is just sort of, frustrating.

Basically, I see a guy who is already effective, but with a more consistent effort could be a Cory Perry or Shane Doan type guy. Somebody who's an absolutely beast to play against every night. Lord knows I'd love to see that.

Edited by kipwinger, 29 February 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[F.Michael]

I think you're right. It's obviously hard to ***** about the guy's production over the past couple of years, especially given how much we pay for it. I think the real *****, at least for me anyway, is that except in rare circumstances, I've never believed that Franzen was the kind of guy who could take a game over and completely dominate. Obviously he's had a boat load of multiple point games, but that's not what I mean. I mean a guy that works so hard every shift, that opposition defenses have to match against him, have to spend time and effort to slow him down, or have to eat s*** if they don't. What's frustrating is that it's not that he doesn't have the skill set to do it, but rather, he's just kind of lazy. To me, what makes Pav, Z, and more and more often Filppula, so dangerous is that they are skilled enough to beat you themselves, but also because you have to take them seriously on every shift, they open the ice up for their linemates. I think Franzen could play that way, but sadly doesn't. I think he's the beneficiary of a lot of hard work from the other guys. And again, you could say this about a lot of people, but in most cases they're limited by a lack of pure skill. A limit Franzen doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, 25-30 goals a year is nice, and for the money it's wonderful. But 25-30 goals a year that commands a defensive response, and makes everyone around him better would be much nicer. And the only thing stopping Franzen from being a guy like that, is Franzen himself...which is just sort of, frustrating.

Basically, I see a guy who is already effective, but with a more consistent effort could be a Cory Perry or Shane Doan type guy. Somebody who's an absolutely beast to play against every night. Lord knows I'd love to see that.

Well said.

I never recall Franzen being anything more than a 3rd line player when he came over at the tender age of 25 yrs in 2005; what he became a few years later was for the most part unexpected.

He arrived with a solid work ethic of someone who hustles, and never gives up on the play - hence his nickname by Stevie...Me thinks the injuries, and to a certain extent being targeted by the opposition has taken a bit of a toll on the Mule, and now we're beginning to see his play drop off, and he doesn't appear to be as hungry as he was just a few short years ago...Although I gotta admit - he's taken some pretty heavy-duty injuries (ACL tear, and facial lacerations when he went face 1st into the boards come to mind), and the guy comes back earlier than expected...For that I'm very impressed with!

I'm hoping he's just saving himself for the playoffs; God knows we'll need him, and Bert to really step it up, and use their size to their advantage...Either way he'll remain a Red Wing; I seriously doubt Holland will move the Mule anytime soon.

[b.shanafan14]

I think you're right. It's obviously hard to ***** about the guy's production over the past couple of years, especially given how much we pay for it. I think the real *****, at least for me anyway, is that except in rare circumstances, I've never believed that Franzen was the kind of guy who could take a game over and completely dominate. Obviously he's had a boat load of multiple point games, but that's not what I mean. I mean a guy that works so hard every shift, that opposition defenses have to match against him, have to spend time and effort to slow him down, or have to eat s*** if they don't. What's frustrating is that it's not that he doesn't have the skill set to do it, but rather, he's just kind of lazy. To me, what makes Pav, Z, and more and more often Filppula, so dangerous is that they are skilled enough to beat you themselves, but also because you have to take them seriously on every shift, they open the ice up for their linemates. I think Franzen could play that way, but sadly doesn't. I think he's the beneficiary of a lot of hard work from the other guys. And again, you could say this about a lot of people, but in most cases they're limited by a lack of pure skill. A limit Franzen doesn't have. Don't get me wrong, 25-30 goals a year is nice, and for the money it's wonderful. But 25-30 goals a year that commands a defensive response, and makes everyone around him better would be much nicer. And the only thing stopping Franzen from being a guy like that, is Franzen himself...which is just sort of, frustrating.

Basically, I see a guy who is already effective, but with a more consistent effort could be a Cory Perry or Shane Doan type guy. Somebody who's an absolutely beast to play against every night. Lord knows I'd love to see that.

I agree completely. Skill is no limit, effort is. As a sports fan, that's the most frustrating thing to watch, in my opinion. I'm not giving Franzen a pass for his low cap hit. He is being paid $5.25 million this season. Add the security the Wings have granted him with such a contract and he should be playing like $6 million. Let him play like $3+ million player when he is getting paid that and his play over time will even out. Setting the bar at the cap hit and then assuming diminished play over time and you'll never get what you paid for.

Looking at effort, defensive play, making his teammates better, and other intangibles, who would you rather have:

Franzen @ $3,651.54 per minute of Ice Time OR $84,677.42 per point OR $175,000.00 per goal
Filppula @ $2,434.36 per minute of Ice Time OR $55,555.56 per point OR $145,833.33 per goal

And some folks were complaining about Filppula's contract and him being paid on potential? Again, give me effort over stats, but if you aren't giving the effort, you better damn well have the stats. Franzen has neither. I hope he plays the rest of the season like he did last night, going to the hard areas and skating. We'll be rewarded with effort, he'll be rewarded with goals and points. I'm pulling for Franzen, always have been, but his effort has to change.

[F.Michael]

I agree completely. Skill is no limit, effort is. As a sports fan, that's the most frustrating thing to watch, in my opinion. I'm not giving Franzen a pass for his low cap hit. He is being paid $5.25 million this season. Add the security the Wings have granted him with such a contract and he should be playing like $6 million. Let him play like $3+ million player when he is getting paid that and his play over time will even out. Setting the bar at the cap hit and then assuming diminished play over time and you'll never get what you paid for.

Looking at effort, defensive play, making his teammates better, and other intangibles, who would you rather have:

Franzen @ $3,651.54 per minute of Ice Time OR $84,677.42 per point OR $175,000.00 per goal
Filppula @ $2,434.36 per minute of Ice Time OR $55,555.56 per point OR $145,833.33 per goal

And some folks were complaining about Filppula's contract and him being paid on potential? Again, give me effort over stats, but if you aren't giving the effort, you better damn well have the stats. Franzen has neither. I hope he plays the rest of the season like he did last night, going to the hard areas and skating. We'll be rewarded with effort, he'll be rewarded with goals and points. I'm pulling for Franzen, always have been, but his effort has to change.

Even though Flip isn't flashy, and has the skill to be a 50 plus point guy year-in-year-out - he's always out there working hard, and from what I've seen he never appears to take a night off - especially in the playoffs in which I feel he's consistently 1 of our better guys.

I'm certain he'll get a nice new contract after the 2012/2013 season, and Finnish his career as a Red Wing...Maybe this summer he'll convince his pal Teemu to join the club.

[Red Wings Addict]

Even though Flip isn't flashy, and has the skill to be a 50 plus point guy year-in-year-out - he's always out there working hard, and from what I've seen he never appears to take a night off - especially in the playoffs in which I feel he's consistently 1 of our better guys.

I'm certain he'll get a nice new contract after the 2012/2013 season, and Finnish his career as a Red Wing...Maybe this summer he'll convince his pal Teemu to join the club.

Not that I completely disagree but what helps that perception is the fact that he's arguably the most fundamentally sound and natural skater on the team. He skates very, very well. An "off" game for him however is the areas in which he skates or perhaps avoids to skate. For instance, when he doesn't work his way to the net or to the inside while in the offensive zone. An "off" game for him simply looks different.

[LeftWinger]

I'm glad you missed the entire point of the whole "signing Hossa or Franzen" aspect of my post.

The entire point was because of his shoulder injury, he was GUARANTEED to miss half the season due to rehab. Franzen wasn't.

Hossa's "other attributes" did not do much to help Detroit in the post season. That is an issue despite the fact he was able to score 40 goals.

His best year happened to be alongside arguably the best center today. He hasn't replicated that performance, or even come close since.

Also, Franzen signed before the season ended, while Hossa took longer to negotiate a contract. Holland wasn't about to risk losing BOTH Franzen and Hossa by waiting on a deal for him.

Finally, the "one year rental" aspect, if you bothered to bring it into context, makes the point of Holland being loyal to players he drafted and included in the system. Hossa came by for one year, and Franzen worked his ass off to make it to the top line. Did anyone expect him to start floating? Absolutely not.

Point being, the entire point was that Hossa was not an easy choice, and if not for the Hudler debacle, Hossa AND Franzen could have been signed.

Funny how people forget that.

Not me! This is one of the reasons I f'ing hate Hudler...

[Hockeytown0001]

Funny how he scores after this thread is made.

[stinky fish taco]

how could hossa and franzen have been signed? where is this extra 5 mil in cap space coming from?

i hate hudler just as much as the next guy, but i don't see how that was the factor in not signing hossa and franzen.

signing both was never presented as a realistic possibility unless you moved someone like filppula or cleary. too bad cleary had that NTC, huh?

[HOCKEY MATTERS]

Franzen has a history of injuries. Maybe he's hanging back a little so there's more of a chance of him being healthy come playoff time? Late season injuries have haunted the boys in the past....just sayin....

[kipwinger]

Franzen has a history of injuries. Maybe he's hanging back a little so there's more of a chance of him being healthy come playoff time? Late season injuries have haunted the boys in the past....just sayin....

So has Zetterberg, and Cleary, and Kronwall for that matter. I don't see them half-assing it 3 out of every 4 games.

[Doc Holliday]

how could hossa and franzen have been signed? where is this extra 5 mil in cap space coming from?

i hate hudler just as much as the next guy, but i don't see how that was the factor in not signing hossa and franzen.

signing both was never presented as a realistic possibility unless you moved someone like filppula or cleary. too bad cleary had that NTC, huh?

Extra 5 million?

There was that 3 million used to sign Bertuzzi and Williams, and moving another lower tier player would allow the cap space to sign Hossa to a fair contract (I think he would have taken a bit less to stay) and only reduce the roster size a bit.

[stinky fish taco]

even if "a bit less" is a 4.5 cap hit long term (which is a pretty significant discount from his current 5.25 hit, which was already a discount to play for a contender), you're still talking about dropping another 1.5mil in addition to what you mentioned. not to mention that you're replacing 3 players with one? how does that work? you'd have to add 1mil for 2 guys minimum salary deals.

even if your scenario is feasible, it doesn't show that that hudler had anything significant to do with it. it was a cap crunch, period.

Edited by stinky fish taco, 01 March 2012 - 12:41 PM.

[Doc Holliday]

even if "a bit less" is a 4.5 cap hit long term (which is a pretty significant discount from his current 5.25 hit, which was already a discount to play for a contender), you're still talking about dropping another 1.5mil in addition to what you mentioned. not to mention that you're replacing 3 players with one? how does that work? you'd have to add 1mil for 2 guys minimum salary deals.

even if your scenario is feasible, it doesn't show that that hudler had anything significant to do with it. it was a cap crunch, period.

If Holland doesn't worry about fitting Hudler into the equation he would have more leeway with Hossa. All I'm saying. I think it was possible, but unfortunately didn't come to fruiting.

The Draper deal probably helped kill it, regardless.

[stinky fish taco]

i think we can agree that if we could go back in time we would sign both and sacrifice depth with a few 500k contracts for a season or two. it would obviously be benefiting them now.

...or go farther back and not give cleary that NTC