149 replies to this topic

[Hairy Lime]

It's just you...tragic how Fish's career ended, but I think that incident is more defining his career than his career did. He had ONE good season and was horribly inconsistent the rest of them...sorry, but I think the sympathy bug has clouded everyone's memory of him. He was great in 2002, but before that, not so great and when he got pummeled by Scott Thornton he turn into, well, Ericsson...

Fischer certainly was not an all-star, but he was developing into a pretty good defenseman, and he hit harder than anyone on this current roster. And yeah, he did get pummeled by Thornton, but that was, if I recall right, his first NHL fight. After that, he carried himself pretty well in fights. Hell, he even managed to not get destroyed by Georges Laraque in one fight, even though he just basically held Laraque off, which, still, was not easy to do.

Anyways, I like this Smith kid, and actually think he should be up full time. He needs to learn at an NHL level now - The kid's 23yo for Christs sake! Holland has a bad habit of letting players "over ripen". And while we're at it, I would have Tatar and Nyguist up here, too. Homer and Cleary look spent. Lets inject some youth into this line-up.

[Nightfall]

Fischer certainly was not an all-star, but he was developing into a pretty good defenseman, and he hit harder than anyone on this current roster. And yeah, he did get pummeled by Thornton, but that was, if I recall right, his first NHL fight. After that, he carried himself pretty well in fights. Hell, he even managed to not get destroyed by Georges Laraque in one fight, even though he just basically held Laraque off, which, still, was not easy to do.

Anyways, I like this Smith kid, and actually think he should be up full time. He needs to learn at an NHL level now - The kid's 23yo for Christs sake! Holland has a good habit of letting players "over ripen". And while we're at it, I would have Tatar and Nyguist up here, too. Homer and Cleary look spent. Lets inject some youth into this line-up.

Fixed it for you....

I don't see the issue with letting players over ripen at the AHL level. It has served us very well in the past. Great players like Kronwall, Abdelkader, and Flip played many games at the minor league level, and it bolstered their confidence. Plus, at the minor league level, they are getting top line minutes. Nyquist and Tatar would be lucky to break into the 3rd line for the Wings. Sending a young player up from the minors to play at the NHL level has certain risk factors attached to it. There are far more young players that find themselves out of the NHL fast because they are not used to the speed of the game or the NHL game as a whole. Young players really do need to start low, excel, and work their way up. By the time they do get to the NHL level, they are either ready to take it on, or withdraw from the league.

I am in the camp that Smith is a good defenseman, but he could use a little more seasoning. Either that or stick him with a top pairing in Detroit where he can get some ice time. I really would not want Smith at this stage in his career when he can get top line minutes in the AHL, or get 7 minutes a night in the NHL.

Just my .02 cents.

[haroldsnepsts]

I liked how Smith handled himself in that fight.

I didn't like how he kept his visor on though. Then again, he did get jumped in the first place.

Exactly.

It's hard to take time to get your helmet off when the guy your fighting goes Tootoo on you and is swinging away.

As for Holland's track record with D-men, it's been impressive in years past but is falling off a bit lately when you consider the Wings track record with Meech, Quincey, Lebda, Ericsson, and Kindl. Even letting their players over-ripen, they've not turned into the players they seemed to think.

To be clear I'm not saying it's awful--prospects are always a bit of a crapshoot--but their development and evaluation of D-men the past few seasons has not been as stellar as they usually are at everything else, especially considering that they let their guys stay in the minors longer than most teams. It's not like we're talking about 19 year olds.

[newfy]

"He asked me to go a few times," Smith said. "I didn't want to because we only had five 'D.' I didn't want to put the guys down but there was a scrum in front of the net and he dropped the gloves. I didn't have an opportunity to get away other than to turtle and I don't do that. I apologized to the guys.

Love this quote. Especially the part about not turtling, Babcock seemed to love it too saying that he can fight all he wants when we have 6 d because he handled himself well

[arag]

Smith looks great so far. Let's hope he brings the new era to Wings. The Smith era ! Well after of course Lids is retired.

[Nevermind]

As for Holland's track record with D-men, it's been impressive in years past but is falling off a bit lately when you consider the Wings track record with Meech, Quincey, Lebda, Ericsson, and Kindl. Even letting their players over-ripen, they've not turned into the players they seemed to think.

To be clear I'm not saying it's awful--prospects are always a bit of a crapshoot--but their development and evaluation of D-men the past few seasons has not been as stellar as they usually are at everything else, especially considering that they let their guys stay in the minors longer than most teams. It's not like we're talking about 19 year olds.

Yeah, it seems like a while since we've developed a true top-four caliber defenseman. It's easy to not notice this when you have Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart as the top 4 for several years. And with White fitting in nicely this year, we haven't really 'needed' a young kid to step up.

I think a lot of us thought Ericsson might be an eventual top-four d-man after his '09 playoffs. You would think his current salary is so exorbitant because of the potential he showed back then. Yet, he's hasn't shown any development at all; if anything, he's regressed severely. I won't hesitate to say that if we get more depth on D for next year, I really want his contract off the books. It's not like his cap number is killing our team by any means--but that's way too much for a bottom pairing defenseman.

Quincey could be on the top two pairings for a lot of teams, but he's probably more of a #5 guy for us. It's important to remember though, Meech vastly outplayed Quincey when they were both here. When we had all those injuries on the back end in '08 (and won like 1 game in 11 or something), Meech was our best defenseman. Who knew Quincey would develop so well?

Hopefully Smith can develop into a very good top-four guy. When the unthinkable with Lidstrom happens, we're gonna need all the help we can get. I'm curious though, does anyone think he has the potential to be an elite first-paring type of guy? IMO, I think he'll be more of a Kronwall type--a #2 defenseman that may still play on the second pair. The thing about Kronwall though is that he could be a #1 defenseman on quite a few teams. I'm not sure if Smith has quite that much potential.

Edited by Nevermind, 05 March 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[wingslogo19]

Smith is the real deal. He's a beauty He's shown that he's NHL ready now. Smith era

[Nightfall]

Yeah, it seems like a while since we've developed a true top-four caliber defenseman. It's easy to not notice this when you have Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall and Stuart as the top 4 for several years. And with White fitting in nicely this year, we haven't really 'needed' a young kid to step up.

I think a lot of us thought Ericsson might be an eventual top-four d-man after his '09 playoffs. You would think his current salary is so exorbitant because of the potential he showed back then. Yet, he's hasn't shown any development at all; if anything, he's regressed severely. I won't hesitate to say that if we get more depth on D for next year, I really want his contract off the books. It's not like his cap number is killing our team by any means--but that's way too much for a bottom pairing defenseman.

Quincey could be on the top two pairings for a lot of teams, but he's probably more of a #5 guy for us. It's important to remember though, Meech vastly outplayed Quincey when they were both here. When we had all those injuries on the back end in '08 (and won like 1 game in 11 or something), Meech was our best defenseman. Who knew Quincey would develop so well?

Hopefully Smith can develop into a very good top-four guy. When the unthinkable with Lidstrom happens, we're gonna need all the help we can get. I'm curious though, does anyone think he has the potential to be an elite first-paring type of guy? IMO, I think he'll be more of a Kronwall type--a #2 defenseman that may still play on the second pair. The thing about Kronwall though is that he could be a #1 defenseman on quite a few teams. I'm not sure if Smith has quite that much potential.

You do realize that Kronwall was developed by the Wings and came up through the AHL system?

Erickson is a defenseman that would be a 2nd pairing on many other teams in the NHL. He is another player that has come up through the system.

Then you have Smith, who IMHO, has the potential to be on the 1st pairing of defense. He is a lot like Rafalski, in that he is an offensive defenseman. The danger I see with Smith is that he could turn into a clone of Andy Delmore. Delmore was a great offensive threat, but he was a defensive liability. That is what they have been working on in the AHL with him this year. I have seen that change going to Griffins games and watching Smith. Last year, he was pushing to get points. Now he is more defensive minded.

The farm system that the Wings have created with the Griffins has been good for the prospects. I believe that by allowing prospects to work their butts off in the minors for a few years has paid dividends. Look at all the players the Wings have today that went through that system. The results cannot be debated.

[Nev]

As for Holland's track record with D-men, it's been impressive in years past but is falling off a bit lately when you consider the Wings track record with Meech, Quincey, Lebda, Ericsson, and Kindl. Even letting their players over-ripen, they've not turned into the players they seemed to think.
.

I don't think its that the players you mention were allowed to over-ripen, its just that they aren't/weren't that good. Quincey got his act together when he was waived, the rest are borderline NHLers.

[Nevermind]

You do realize that Kronwall was developed by the Wings and came up through the AHL system?

Yes, but I was talking about defenseman developed recently. As was haroldsnepsts' post.

Kronwall came into the NHL eight or nine years ago. Not exactly a recent farm product.

Erickson is a defenseman that would be a 2nd pairing on many other teams in the NHL. He is another player that has come up through the system.

Then we should have signed that Erickson guy instead of Ericsson. Maybe he actually plays physical.

Edited by Nevermind, 05 March 2012 - 04:55 PM.

[haroldsnepsts]

I don't think its that the players you mention were allowed to over-ripen, its just that they aren't/weren't that good. Quincey got his act together when he was waived, the rest are borderline NHLers.

That's kind of what I meant. Not that it was the over-ripening them that ruined them. But even given that extra time to evaluate them, the Wings seemed to have overestimated their potential.

Don't get me wrong, I think they actually made a good find in someone like Ericsson. Dead last in the draft and they've got a #5 defenseman out of it.

My point was mainly that their assessment of D-men the last few seasons hasn't been as strong as in the past, not that the over-ripening damaged their prospects.

[kipwinger]

Meech was drafted 229th by Detroit. Lebda was undrafted and signed after given a pro-tryout. Lilja was drafted 54th overall by the Kings and was traded twice before being signed by the Wings for close to the league minimum. Ericsson was drafted dead last and plays regular minutes on our defense. Kindl hasn't even played one completely season yet and has looked streaky but good. Kronwall and Quincey are both top four dmen on pretty much any team in the league. I really don't know what you guys are expecting when it comes to developing talent, but I'd love to know which team in the league meets your lofty expectations if turning out Kronwall, Quincey, Kindl, Smith, and Ericsson means our system isn't cutting it. If all you've got is Meech, Lebda, and Lilja to ***** about, I'd say look at how they were acquired and what they provided (marginal though it might be) and I think you'll realize we got more out of them, and for less, than anybody else would have. As for the other five I mentioned, show me another team in the league that regularly starts five defensemen that they drafted and developed?

Edited by kipwinger, 05 March 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[Nightfall]

Then we should have signed that Erickson guy instead of Ericsson. Maybe he actually plays physical.

Nice deflection! I will claim point on that one since you didn't have one to produce other than to try to pull spelling cop.

Ericsson, Quincey, and Kindl are three players who could be considered to be at least 2nd pairing defense that came up through the system since Kronwall. Then of course you have Brendan Smith as well. That pretty much equates to about as many players get chosen at the NHL level on a regular basis. Of everyone playing in the AHL, only 2-3 guys actually make it up and stay with the big club. Hell, if you look at the Griffins Alumni since they started playing back in 1996, only 123 players have even played a single game at the NHL level. Less than 1/4 of those players actually had regular seasons with the NHL. Thats a lot of players that go through the farm system.

Of course, the 2nd pairing of D in Detroit are widely considered to be 1st pairing of D in other cities. If Stuart and Kronwall were playing for any other team, they would be playing on the top line.

[Nightfall]

That's kind of what I meant. Not that it was the over-ripening them that ruined them. But even given that extra time to evaluate them, the Wings seemed to have overestimated their potential.

Don't get me wrong, I think they actually made a good find in someone like Ericsson. Dead last in the draft and they've got a #5 defenseman out of it.

My point was mainly that their assessment of D-men the last few seasons hasn't been as strong as in the past, not that the over-ripening damaged their prospects.

I believe another big problem is that people expect that every draft pick should be a top player for the Wings. The simple fact of the matter is that many of these players don't pan out. Less than 20% of all players picked actually have a career in the NHL over 200 games.

List of Wings Draft Picks

Look at all the players that were chosen that haven't played a single game in the NHL. I really think that people should have more realistic expectations. A lot of these players called in the draft will never see NHL action for one reason or another. Its not horrible picks, but just the name of the game.

[haroldsnepsts]

I believe another big problem is that people expect that every draft pick should be a top player for the Wings. The simple fact of the matter is that many of these players don't pan out. Less than 20% of all players picked actually have a career in the NHL over 200 games.

List of Wings Draft Picks

Look at all the players that were chosen that haven't played a single game in the NHL. I really think that people should have more realistic expectations. A lot of these players called in the draft will never see NHL action for one reason or another. Its not horrible picks, but just the name of the game.

True.

I guess it's just really that time span where they had Lebda, Meech, Ericsson and Quincey that things got a little goofy.

And yeah, overall the Wings have done a great job considering what a crapshoot draft picks are. And none of theirs are high picks.

[LeftWinger]

Fischer certainly was not an all-star, but he was developing into a pretty good defenseman, and he hit harder than anyone on this current roster. And yeah, he did get pummeled by Thornton, but that was, if I recall right, his first NHL fight. After that, he carried himself pretty well in fights. Hell, he even managed to not get destroyed by Georges Laraque in one fight, even though he just basically held Laraque off, which, still, was not easy to do.

Anyways, I like this Smith kid, and actually think he should be up full time. He needs to learn at an NHL level now - The kid's 23yo for Christs sake! Holland has a bad habit of letting players "over ripen". And while we're at it, I would have Tatar and Nyguist up here, too. Homer and Cleary look spent. Lets inject some youth into this line-up.

Oh well, that is the past and I agree Smith seems to be a real good find and I hope he is here to stay!

Edited by LeftWinger, 05 March 2012 - 09:19 PM.

[winger30]

It's just you...tragic how Fish's career ended, but I think that incident is more defining his career than his career did. He had ONE good season and was horribly inconsistent the rest of them...sorry, but I think the sympathy bug has clouded everyone's memory of him. He was great in 2002, but before that, not so great and when he got pummeled by Scott Thornton he turn into, well, Ericsson...

i meant more size wise i guess they were both pretty stocky jiril had 20 pounds or so on smith but still.

[Hockeytown0001]

I like what I've seen from him so far, especially his scrap yesterday.

[arag]

Smith needs to be smart and keep his head up at all times. Iam sure he will be a target for asholes of other teams. Be smart stay healthy and a bright future is pretty much guaranteed with the Wings.

[Rivalred]

I like what I've seen from him so far, especially his scrap yesterday.

Was at disappoint when he didn't lift the opponent off the ice, over his head, and break him in half on his knee...

*crosses fingers eagerly wishing for next fight*