49 replies to this topic

[rrasco]

Lidstrom hasn't even been the best defenseman on our team, IMO, let alone the entire league. I don't know if he would win the Norris even if he was playing hockey ala lidstrom 2002, though. I feel like there are too many influential people who see Lids as inferior to Orr and have to justify that by not voting for his tying Norris trophy. It doesn't matter either way, though.

That's been my fear; that he might not get the nods because his achievements would rival that of Orr's.

Did anyone actually read the article? I don't see any reason why he can't win. He is tied for the best +/- there is; regardless of how useless that stat is. One of the three tied with a +25 is Ian White. He doesn't have 50 pts, but this isn't the Art Ross. He is still having a solid year and is in the top 10 for goals by defenseman. Not to mention all that stuff that was covered in the article.

I thought it was funny the video clip had the analysts picking Weber and Karlsson, while the article pegs Lids as the winner.

[Ozzie30]

If Lidstrom wins, is breaking Orr's record enough to coax him back?

[Red Crazy]

I am sure that Nick will be glad to pass the torch to Karlsson. Karlsson's stats are freekin incredible. If Karlsson doesn't win this year there is something wrong.

[haroldsnepsts]

Lidstrom hasn't even been the best defenseman on our team, IMO, let alone the entire league. I don't know if he would win the Norris even if he was playing hockey ala lidstrom 2002, though. I feel like there are too many influential people who see Lids as inferior to Orr and have to justify that by not voting for his tying Norris trophy. It doesn't matter either way, though.

Who would you put above him? Not Kronwall. He's been good but had some really awful mistakes and weak games. White is having a great season in part because he's paired with Lidstrom.

[Red Wings Addict]

Lidstrom hasn't even been the best defenseman on our team, IMO, let alone the entire league. I don't know if he would win the Norris even if he was playing hockey ala lidstrom 2002, though. I feel like there are too many influential people who see Lids as inferior to Orr and have to justify that by not voting for his tying Norris trophy. It doesn't matter either way, though.

While I somewhat agree with this sentiment, I'm not exactly sure who I would put above Lidstrom. I'm not sure he's been great as far as a two-way defenseman goes. However, I can't really say for sure that one of the other guys has been better.

Who's been better from your point of view just out of curiosity? Ericsson?

[LeftWinger]

Lidstrom hasn't even been the best defenseman on our team, IMO, let alone the entire league. I don't know if he would win the Norris even if he was playing hockey ala lidstrom 2002, though. I feel like there are too many influential people who see Lids as inferior to Orr and have to justify that by not voting for his tying Norris trophy. It doesn't matter either way, though.

This to a "T"

They will never vote Lidstrom an 8th trophy just because that would mean that people would have to admit that Lidstrom is just as good as or even better than Orr ever was. So by that fact alone, Lids will retire with 7 Norris Trophies.

On that note, if I am making a team and picking players from their prime, Lidstrom gets picked before Orr...

[toby91_ca]

That's been my fear; that he might not get the nods because his achievements would rival that of Orr's.

Did anyone actually read the article? I don't see any reason why he can't win. He is tied for the best +/- there is; regardless of how useless that stat is. One of the three tied with a +25 is Ian White. He doesn't have 50 pts, but this isn't the Art Ross. He is still having a solid year and is in the top 10 for goals by defenseman. Not to mention all that stuff that was covered in the article.

I thought it was funny the video clip had the analysts picking Weber and Karlsson, while the article pegs Lids as the winner.

So, you think he might deserve to win becuase of his +/-, even if the stat is useless?

[dat's sick]

I am sure that Nick will be glad to pass the torch to Karlsson. Karlsson's stats are freekin incredible. If Karlsson doesn't win this year there is something wrong.

30 goals as a D-man is more impressive than just being about a Point-per-game. Also, Karlsson is still a high-risk player. It try to watch Ottawa every now and then and every time I do I see Karlsson making atleast a few stupid plays per game that lead to odd-man rushes or breakways for the other team. Even just looking at highlights from their games you'll see many occasions where the other team has a good chance and Karlsson is the 4th or 5th Ottawa guy getting back in the defensive zone.

He's having an awesome year but all that offense DOES come at a cost. If it was Game 7 of the Cup Final, with 1 minute left and the score tied, as a coach I'd be really, really hesitant to put Karlsson out on the ice. On the other, I would do everything I could to get Lidstrom out there as much as possible.

Adam Larsson is a more likely heir to Lidstrom's throne imo. I find it more likely that he will start putting up better offensive numbers than Karlsson becoming a good shutdown D.

[Shaman464]

I am sure that Nick will be glad to pass the torch to Karlsson. Karlsson's stats are freekin incredible. If Karlsson doesn't win this year there is something wrong.

His offensive stats have been great, his defensive stats have been meh.

[toby91_ca]

This to a "T"

They will never vote Lidstrom an 8th trophy just because that would mean that people would have to admit that Lidstrom is just as good as or even better than Orr ever was. So by that fact alone, Lids will retire with 7 Norris Trophies.

On that note, if I am making a team and picking players from their prime, Lidstrom gets picked before Orr...

I think that is absolutely asinine. If you want to argue that people won't give him Norris because they don't want to admit Lidstrom is just as good or better, those same people could just fall back on this:

Orr, ignoring his rookie year, effectively played 8 seasons in the NHL, in those 8 seasons he has won:

- 8 Norris trophies
- 3 Hart trophies
- 2 Conn Smythe trophies
- 2 Art Ross trophies

Some would argue that if his career was not cut short, he could have won 15-20 Norris trophies.

His offensive stats have been great, his defensive stats have been meh.

The problem is that there really are no defensive stats. Any stats you find that you can try and present as defensive stats are subjective at best.

That's the problem I always have with trying to determine who the best is defensively. You can do that with the Wings because you watch them play all the time. You can't really assess a player's defensive play without watching them all the time. Unless you watch every player just as much as every other player, you will never be able to form an objective view.

[Echolalia]

Who would you put above him? Not Kronwall. He's been good but had some really awful mistakes and weak games. White is having a great season in part because he's paired with Lidstrom.

Who's been better from your point of view just out of curiosity? Ericsson?

I think Stuart has been our best defenseman this year, which i'm entirely prepared to receive flak for. He doesn't have the offensive prowess of lidstrom, kronwall, or white, and those stats certainly won't paint a sexy picture of him, but I think what he has been providing in our own zone has more than made up for that.
I can certainly see the appeal for lidstrom because of his contributions across all 200 feet of ice, but again, Stuart's play in his own end and what he brings to the table are things that I don't see other guys on our team capable of replacing, and if we end up beating a big, powerful, cycling team like the ducks, sharks, or bruins in the playoffs, it will be largely because of him.

[rrasco]

So, you think he might deserve to win becuase of his +/-, even if the stat is useless?

No. Just pointing out what metrics are available and that some take into account when making that decision. Obviously he can win with a -2, why not a +25?

[haroldsnepsts]

I think Stuart has been our best defenseman this year, which i'm entirely prepared to receive flak for. He doesn't have the offensive prowess of lidstrom, kronwall, or white, and those stats certainly won't paint a sexy picture of him, but I think what he has been providing in our own zone has more than made up for that.
I can certainly see the appeal for lidstrom because of his contributions across all 200 feet of ice, but again, Stuart's play in his own end and what he brings to the table are things that I don't see other guys on our team capable of replacing, and if we end up beating a big, powerful, cycling team like the ducks, sharks, or bruins in the playoffs, it will be largely because of him.

I don't think that's a crazy argument. He doesn't face as tough of competition as Lidstrom does, and as you point out doesn't have the offensive prowess, but I agree he's been very solid this year.

If he does end up going back to California next season, he'll definitely be missed. He was a great pickup.

[Echolalia]

I don't think that's a crazy argument. He doesn't face as tough of competition as Lidstrom does, and as you point out doesn't have the offensive prowess, but I agree he's been very solid this year.

If he does end up going back to California next season, he'll definitely be missed. He was a great pickup.

This is why Suter is so crucial to the Wings' future. He can contribute offensively to alleviate Lidstrom's retirement, and he's also hard in the corners and around the net, which frankly I believe the Wings severely lack on defense. Stuart provides it, White can provide it but doesn't with the regularity and effectiveness that Stuart does, and Ericsson tries to and sometimes does well, but it's inconsistent and often ineffective. Other than that we really just let other teams own our perimeter and hope Jimmy can make a save with at the most a favorable rebound.

[Ram]

Nick's got a shot, you don't always have to put up a lot of points to be considered, NHL.com's reasoning that the Central Division is tough as nails this year and Nick has held it down in even strength seems legit, though maybe he becomes a finalist just as a formality as this point?

Also, Draper won the Selke in '03 - '04? Totally forgot about that one.

[Jaymister]

Karlsson should get it, but you never know.

[Red Crazy]

30 goals as a D-man is more impressive than just being about a Point-per-game. Also, Karlsson is still a high-risk player. It try to watch Ottawa every now and then and every time I do I see Karlsson making atleast a few stupid plays per game that lead to odd-man rushes or breakways for the other team. Even just looking at highlights from their games you'll see many occasions where the other team has a good chance and Karlsson is the 4th or 5th Ottawa guy getting back in the defensive zone.

He's having an awesome year but all that offense DOES come at a cost. If it was Game 7 of the Cup Final, with 1 minute left and the score tied, as a coach I'd be really, really hesitant to put Karlsson out on the ice. On the other, I would do everything I could to get Lidstrom out there as much as possible.

Adam Larsson is a more likely heir to Lidstrom's throne imo. I find it more likely that he will start putting up better offensive numbers than Karlsson becoming a good shutdown D.

You make some good points. He may not win the Norris this season but the tools this kid has at his age if he continues to grow his game and tightens up defensively he will no doubt win his share.

[Z Winged Dangler]

I think that is absolutely asinine. If you want to argue that people won't give him Norris because they don't want to admit Lidstrom is just as good or better, those same people could just fall back on this:

Orr, ignoring his rookie year, effectively played 8 seasons in the NHL, in those 8 seasons he has won:

- 8 Norris trophies
- 3 Hart trophies
- 2 Conn Smythe trophies
- 2 Art Ross trophies

Some would argue that if his career was not cut short, he could have won 15-20 Norris trophies.

The problem is that there really are no defensive stats. Any stats you find that you can try and present as defensive stats are subjective at best.

That's the problem I always have with trying to determine who the best is defensively. You can do that with the Wings because you watch them play all the time. You can't really assess a player's defensive play without watching them all the time. Unless you watch every player just as much as every other player, you will never be able to form an objective view.

In no way is this to negate the greatness of Bobby Orr, but in a 6 team league he won it 8 times, with approx 36 Dmen to compete against in a era where hockey wasn't the logjam of great players it is today. Lids won his norris trophies all in a 30 team league against approx 180 Dmen. It's the same as the Gretzky debate playing in the insanely high scoring 80's with no salary cap and on an Oilers team with a ridiculous roster. Tell me Stamkos isn't as good a trigger man as Brett Hull...better goalies these days too...86 goals in a season for Hull, Stamkos on pace for almost 60. Apples and oranges.

[toby91_ca]

In no way is this to negate the greatness of Bobby Orr, but in a 6 team league he won it 8 times, with approx 36 Dmen to compete against in a era where hockey wasn't the logjam of great players it is today. Lids won his norris trophies all in a 30 team league against approx 180 Dmen. It's the same as the Gretzky debate playing in the insanely high scoring 80's with no salary cap and on an Oilers team with a ridiculous roster. Tell me Stamkos isn't as good a trigger man as Brett Hull...better goalies these days too...86 goals in a season for Hull, Stamkos on pace for almost 60. Apples and oranges.

Bobby Orr did not play at in the original 6 era.

[dragonballgtz]

Karlsson should get it, but you never know.

Mike Green would be pissed IMO if Karlsson got it and he didn't get it back in 09