Cleary, Bertuzzi, Hudler and Franzen

[sureWhyNot 19]

Bertuzzi is a +21 and has 30 points while missing a handful of games. He plays night in and night out against other teams top lines. I know he has the luxury of playing aside Datsyuk but tht said I couldn't be happier with Big Bert's play. I am very happy he signe a 2 year deal.

[Guest Crymson]

What gets me is that he's getting paid quite well for playing on the bottom 6.

$5 million plus per season up until the 2015/2016 season...At least it's only a cap hit of $3.9 million

Cap hit is more or less what matters. And 30 goals in the regular season plus excellent playoff performance is worth $4m.

[Wing Across The Pond 196]

Cleary's been playing on a bum knee for at least half this season. Just sayin'...

Yeah, I wasn't going to say anything really apart from the fact that he hasn't played a whole season nigh on since Frankie Goes To Hollywood were in the charts. He's a work horse for someone who constantly gets knocked on his can and knows that it's going to happen again as soon as he's back on the ice. Dats doesn't get knocked much but core strength like that doesn't come with a few months training. He's worked at that for years, something unfortunately Cleary doesn't have the time or the fresh body to do. Also Bert plays the game smart like a future coach. I like smart. Franzen pisses me off from time to time but his pros outweigh the cons for me. Hudler is having a good season on the back of a few shaky years (personally and professionally).

I mean jeez, we're not a gung-ho score-at-all-costs team. We're defensively strong and build around that. It's no mystery that we prefer our forwards to play D and our D to play sensible and smart. And that we invest time into a goaltender who was over-ripe when coming into the NHL for the purposes of having him play a lot of hockey and learn from consistent playing time. I couldn't care really that Franzen isn't a 50 goal scorer. As long as he gets us the one that wins (which he's been doing all year).

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

What gets me is that he's getting paid quite well for playing on the bottom 6.

$5 million plus per season up until the 2015/2016 season...At least it's only a cap hit of $3.9 million

He must be the best bottom-sixer in the league (if you honestly want to call him that) considering his point and goal totals.

[clutchngrab 12]

Those of you expecting perfection and/or constant dominance on the part of the Wings should alter your expectations to a more realistic level.

Well you are right about expectations. However a cup winning team has to have luck, health, hunger, goaltending, talent and a good mix of youth and vets to balance all that. Think about the wings cup teams - or any other cup winning teams of recent years. Ask yourself if the 2012 wings are that type of team? I would say close, but no cigar. You can't have passengers and you need everyone playing to their potential. Of these aforementioned players who makes the cut?

[clutchngrab 12]

Cap hit is more or less what matters. And 30 goals in the regular season plus excellent playoff performance is worth $4m.

What's frustrating is that this guy has all the tools in the world to be an elite forward yet he doesn't have the heart or psyche to be that forward. It's almost like he took less money to remain a wing, float around and underachieve. Maybe I have an unrealistic assessment of his abilities (ala Dustin Penner's amazing playoff run?), but I think not.

[clutchngrab 12]

This shows how much Datsyuk makes Bert look good. When Bert is alone he makes stupid plays, tries to do too much and takes stupid penalties. With Datsyuk he has more space and can actually do something.

What burns my ass is here we have one of the top players in the game in his prime and the best Holland can do is surround him with Bert and Franzen. Really? This is like a crime against humanity. Imagine Dats with Perry, Kessel or Gaborik - or even Kovalchuk - it boggles the mind how Holland has wasted the top 2 or 3 forwards in the game.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

What's frustrating is that this guy has all the tools in the world to be an elite forward yet he doesn't have the heart or psyche to be that forward. It's almost like he took less money to remain a wing, float around and underachieve. Maybe I have an unrealistic assessment of his abilities (ala Dustin Penner's amazing playoff run?), but I think not.

He has the size and shot. His moves are very deliberate and in all honesty not world-class. His defensive skills are fair. He is not a fast skater. Also his ability to protect the puck on the boards is fairly weak.

I don't know where people are getting this idea that he has the tools to be an elite talent. Even when he had the work ethic and linemates on both sides of him and not just one, he scored 34 goals. He is a good goal scorer. He is not an elite goal scorer.

[Guest Crymson]

What's frustrating is that this guy has all the tools in the world to be an elite forward yet he doesn't have the heart or psyche to be that forward. It's almost like he took less money to remain a wing, float around and underachieve. Maybe I have an unrealistic assessment of his abilities (ala Dustin Penner's amazing playoff run?), but I think not.

When did Dustin Penner have an amazing playoff run?

[clutchngrab 12]

When did Dustin Penner have an amazing playoff run?

With Edmonton a few years back. Right before Burke, then GM of Anaheim, gave him a RFA offer. That little spat was very entertaining.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

When did Dustin Penner have an amazing playoff run?

Amazing is overstating it, but he looked very good in the playoffs his first two seasons in the league. Winning the Cup with Anaheim his second. I guess that's when he decided he could stop trying, because he's been an underachiever most of the time since.

When the Kings traded for him (and his big contract) I was hoping he could be some surprising reclamation project. Alas, he still works about as hard as Franzen on his off nights, minus the scoring touch.

[Red Wings Addict 787]

Oh Cleary... Oh Danny Boy...

Would it be such a bad idea if he sat and healed up for a little bit or is it really better for him physically to keep playing through this injury?

[kipwinger 8,498]

Oh Cleary... Oh Danny Boy...

Would it be such a bad idea if he sat and healed up for a little bit or is it really better for him physically to keep playing through this injury?

I agree with you. Unlike many on here, I don't think Cleary is past it, or washed up, or whatever. I think he's just been playing hurt for a really long time and I agree that it would probably be better for him to sit right now rather than try to struggle through it and be ineffective.

[Red Wings Addict 787]

I agree with you. Unlike many on here, I don't think Cleary is past it, or washed up, or whatever. I think he's just been playing hurt for a really long time and I agree that it would probably be better for him to sit right now rather than try to struggle through it and be ineffective.

Well I'm seriously wondering about it. I really don't know. In the crazy world of professional sports, perhaps the best thing for him is to keep playing. He might be thinking that rest won't really heal him up much more significantly so he might as well play. Again, I'm really not sure.

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

why are some people hating on franzen?? if he plays a full season hes a 30 goal guy , look around the league and theres not to many 30+ goal scorers these days.... and more importantly he shows up in the playoffs when it counts

hudler after last season , i was willing to get rid of him has come back this year and is on pace for like 25 goals , id say keep him but im sure he will get bigger money offers from some team , probably 4+ a season , its time to let him go and bring up nyquist and others which is why for the life of me i cant understand why the wings resigned bertuzzi , we need to get some of the kids to come up and play with some veterans while they are still here so they can learn

cleary's been hurt so im gonna take it easy on him i think he has alot more to offer than hes been giving us this season , that being said considering his salary he'd be number 1 guy id trade if we needed cap room

on a different note id love it if we made an exception and gave dick axelsson a shot next year , at least a 10 game trial and a real shot not put him on the 4th line, hes got all the offensive tools to be a real point producer and goal scorer, his defensive play isnt great but i think he could learn from z and others

franzen datsyuk nyquist

filppula zetterberg axelsson .. top 6 next year ... tatar and andersson will be up in 2013-2014 , we gotta start blending in the kids

Edited March 15, 2012 by nyqvististhefuture

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Cleary-Franzen-Bertuzzi.

Is Babcock trolling us?

[Majsheppard 203]

I honestly wanted Franzen to be the only one of these guys on our team next year. The Bert signing pissed me off, and it just feels like on any given night two of them can be overcome by the team... I would like it if we only had one of them and I think Franzen is the best to keep in the long run.

[kipwinger 8,498]

why are some people hating on franzen?? if he plays a full season hes a 30 goal guy , look around the league and theres not to many 30+ goal scorers these days.... and more importantly he shows up in the playoffs when it counts

hudler after last season , i was willing to get rid of him has come back this year and is on pace for like 25 goals , id say keep him but im sure he will get bigger money offers from some team , probably 4+ a season , its time to let him go and bring up nyquist and others which is why for the life of me i cant understand why the wings resigned bertuzzi , we need to get some of the kids to come up and play with some veterans while they are still here so they can learn

cleary's been hurt so im gonna take it easy on him i think he has alot more to offer than hes been giving us this season , that being said considering his salary he'd be number 1 guy id trade if we needed cap room

on a different note id love it if we made an exception and gave dick axelsson a shot next year , at least a 10 game trial and a real shot not put him on the 4th line, hes got all the offensive tools to be a real point producer and goal scorer, his defensive play isnt great but i think he could learn from z and others

franzen datsyuk nyquist

filppula zetterberg axelsson .. top 6 next year ... tatar and andersson will be up in 2013-2014 , we gotta start blending in the kids

Johan Franzen has scored 30 goals or more once...once!

[b.shanafan14 733]

Johan Franzen has scored 30 goals or more once...once!

I thought he was the Wings' franchise goal-scorer? I must have read that contract he signed a few years ago wrong... Its OK, he is still leading the team in goals. And White has the best plus-minus, or at least he did...

Johan Franzen: Perennial 25-30 goal-scorer. Who wouldn't want that for 11 years?

[nyqvististhefuture 1,002]

Johan Franzen has scored 30 goals or more once...once!

2007-08 Detroit Red Wings NHL 72 27

2008-09 Detroit Red Wings NHL 71 34

2009-10 Detroit Red Wings NHL 27 10

2010-11 Detroit Red Wings NHL 76 28

2011-12 Detroit Red Wings NHL 70 26

as i said if he plays a full schedule hes a 30 goal guy

Edited March 15, 2012 by nyqvististhefuture

[b.shanafan14 733]

2007-08 Detroit Red Wings NHL 72 27

2008-09 Detroit Red Wings NHL 71 34

2009-10 Detroit Red Wings NHL 27 10

2010-11 Detroit Red Wings NHL 76 28

2011-12 Detroit Red Wings NHL 70 26

as i said if he plays a full schedule hes a 30 goal guy

And yet, his goals-per-game and points-per-game continue to drop season after season, peaking (shock) in the last contract year he'll ever see. He also no longer plays even halfway physical or does much fore/backchecking. He's a one-note song, and its losing tempo. His career arc is looking like "utility player breaks through as a scorer before losing his utility and failing to score".

[CrimsonFlame 424]

Raw stats don't mean anything. Just looking at Franzen's numbers makes you think "oh yeah ok he seems to do good he deserves a huge contracnt"

But if you actually watch the games you can clearly see he is pretty much a no show. He doesn't do ANYTHING most of the time. Just skates around minding his own business. And all of those goals he scores, are usually done at pointless times. IE Last night when we were already down 2 (or 3 I can't remember) goals to the Kings. Or better yet when we're up 2 or 3 goals.

Playoff preformer or not, I want you to play your heart out EVERY TIME you step out onto the ice. Not just in the post season. Because once you start trending in a direction you typically keep following it. And right now Franzen is NOT trending in a positive direction in any facet of the game.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

And yet, his goals-per-game and points-per-game continue to drop season after season, peaking (shock) in the last contract year he'll ever see. He also no longer plays even halfway physical or does much fore/backchecking. He's a one-note song, and its losing tempo. His career arc is looking like "utility player breaks through as a scorer before losing his utility and failing to score".

So you mean to tell me it is likely he won't get either two goals or two points to pass his last season goal/point totals?

Come on. Also this is is second full season after his contract was signed, so saying he is expected to continue to drop in production (when he is on pace to surpass both of last years totals in goals and points) is short-sighted.

I thought he was the Wings' franchise goal-scorer? I must have read that contract he signed a few years ago wrong... Its OK, he is still leading the team in goals. And White has the best plus-minus, or at least he did...

Johan Franzen: Perennial 25-30 goal-scorer. Who wouldn't want that for 11 years?

What franchise goal scorer gets paid $4 million a season?

Edited March 15, 2012 by Doc Holliday

[b.shanafan14 733]

So you mean to tell me it is likely he won't get either two goals or two points to pass his last season goal/point totals?

Come on. Also this is is second full season after his contract was signed, so saying he is expected to continue to drop in production (when he is on pace to surpass both of last years totals in goals and points) is short-sighted.

---

What franchise goal scorer gets paid $4 million a season?

I was referring to per game stats, not total stats. More games are bound to equal more points, but would you really say that we should be expecting one-dimensional play with so-so stats from a guy we have signed for 11 years? As I said, he is bringing less and less beyond his scoring, and his scoring is not to par. The thought in 2009 when they signed him for 11 years was that he was trending up, not down. Based on his per game stats, everyone rightfully expected 40 goals and 68 points through 82 games. Compare this season and last to his contract year, its a pretty sharp decline statistically, which is the basis for most folks defense of him. Add in that he floats incessantly and works less every night while climbing on the back of Datsyuk to do all the heavy lifting. He is a passenger and hasn't stepped up jack with his team down.

And no, I wouldn't expect a franchise goal-scorer to be paid $4mil/season, I would expect him to be signed to a franchised-contract of say, 11 years, and I'd expect him to be getting paid around $5.25mil/season on top of such ludicrous job security, which he is. Folks need to quit looking at the cap-hit as a wash right now, because he is already nearing the edge of his usefulness at that price, and I can't imagine he'll be able sustain this little plateau for much longer given the his continual decline since signing his contract.

Lets say he is playing to his cap-hit. Right now he is getting paid $5.25mil/season now and playing like a $4mil/season. The fun part? 4 years from now when his play has continued to decline, same story $5mil/season and a $4mil/season cap-hit. And in 6 years when his pay finally starts to dip, still a $4mil/season cap-hit.

The guy getting worse doesn't bode well. His statistics are not up to par with a player granted the contract he was, and yet they are the only defensible position for most. Watch the games and its an entirely different story, moving from decently mediocre to abysmal. And above all else, his attitude is s*** when he can't be bothered to get up for games when his team is down and dropping quickly in the standings.

Edited March 15, 2012 by b.shanafan14

[nuts2u 22]

I was referring to per game stats, not total stats. More games are bound to equal more points, but would you really say that we should be expecting one-dimensional play with so-so stats from a guy we have signed for 11 years? As I said, he is bringing less and less beyond his scoring, and his scoring is not to par. The thought in 2009 when they signed him for 11 years was that he was trending up, not down. Based on his per game stats, everyone rightfully expected 40 goals and 68 points through 82 games. Compare this season and last to his contract year, its a pretty sharp decline statistically, which is the basis for most folks defense of him. Add in that he floats incessantly and works less every night while climbing on the back of Datsyuk to do all the heavy lifting. He is a passenger and hasn't stepped up jack with his team down.

And no, I wouldn't expect a franchise goal-scorer to be paid $4mil/season, I would expect him to be signed to a franchised-contract of say, 11 years, and I'd expect him to be getting paid around $5.25mil/season on top of such ludicrous job security, which he is. Folks need to quit looking at the cap-hit as a wash right now, because he is already nearing the edge of his usefulness at that price, and I can't imagine he'll be able sustain this little plateau for much longer given the his continual decline since signing his contract.

Lets say he is playing to his cap-hit. Right now he is getting paid $5.25mil/season now and playing like a $4mil/season. The fun part? 4 years from now when his play has continued to decline, same story $5mil/season and a $4mil/season cap-hit. And in 6 years when his pay finally starts to dip, still a $4mil/season cap-hit.

The guy getting worse doesn't bode well. His statistics are not up to par with a player granted the contract he was, and yet they are the only defensible position for most. Watch the games and its an entirely different story, moving from decently mediocre to abysmal. And above all else, his attitude is s*** when he can't be bothered to get up for games when his team is down and dropping quickly in the standings.

People that keep bleating about that effing cap hit piss me off almost as much as watching Lazydick stroll around the soft areas of the ice looking for an easy goal. f***** is getting paid 5.25 MILLION BUCKS and anyone that thinks 5.25M is really only 3.95M then please come see me as I have a house in Forida I will sell you in a heartbeat.

Edited March 15, 2012 by nuts2u