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THN Future Watch 2012


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#1 Majsheppard

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:42 AM

A recent tweet reveals that the new Hockey News Future watch has a weak forcast of the Wings farm system.


Brian Costello ‏ @bcostellothn
#RedWings have C+ rating and 4 prospects (Smith, Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Tatar) among top 75 in THN's upcoming #FutureWatch

Interesting...
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Tootoo does NOT belong on this team. He is classless and I would rather see the Wings be bad than classless. I feel the same way about Bertuzzi as well, but he at least CAN make the team better. With Tootoo the team becomes worse and in danger of being classless. Would you have liked Claude on the team? Or Roy? No. So why would you be okay with that POS.

This thread has been closed due to emotions being higher than people's ability to read, interpret, and properly respond to simple posts.

#2 Echolalia

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:17 AM

I think that's a fair assessment. I dont see any of those players as being top line material (except smith i can see being a top 2 dman). We have depth in our farm system, but no marquee players. In other words, we have a replacement for Filppula, we have a replacement for Hudler, but when Dastyuk and Zetterberg and Franzen retire, there's no young blood that can fill their skates, at least at the moment.

#3 Konnan511

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:36 AM

I think that's a fair assessment. I dont see any of those players as being top line material (except smith i can see being a top 2 dman). We have depth in our farm system, but no marquee players. In other words, we have a replacement for Filppula, we have a replacement for Hudler, but when Dastyuk and Zetterberg and Franzen retire, there's no young blood that can fill their skates, at least at the moment.

Jurco and Tvrdon and Nyquist disagree with your last statement.
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#4 Crashnburnluder

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:56 AM

I love checking out how our prospects are doing, but I hate trying to compare them to who they would replace. I bet over 10 years ago we never would have thought Datsyuk would basically take the helm from Datsyuk, and Zetterberg from Shanahan. It is hard to tell what players will be come what.

If I remember correctly Zetterberg never put up a ton of points in the Elitserien but then came over here and was runner up to the Calder. Some players hit a wall and never reach there potential, some get the right attitude and right enviroment and shoot through the ceiling. There will be some surprises out there, and I cant wait to see who it is so I can buy their jersey. Hoping Jurco, I want to see another 91 in Detroit....

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#5 Echolalia

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 12:44 PM

Jurco and Tvrdon and Nyquist disagree with your last statement.


I sure hope so, but from all I've gathered I expect them to be solid top 6ers (although I know nothing at all about Tvrdon), but cracking top 3 still seems like a stretch for me.

#6 Majsheppard

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

I don't get the ratings at all, I just read the flyers got a b- with no prospects in the top 75?

It just stands to reason something is wrong with their concept.
"It is a lot easier to be an ******* to words than to people"-xkcd

Tootoo does NOT belong on this team. He is classless and I would rather see the Wings be bad than classless. I feel the same way about Bertuzzi as well, but he at least CAN make the team better. With Tootoo the team becomes worse and in danger of being classless. Would you have liked Claude on the team? Or Roy? No. So why would you be okay with that POS.

This thread has been closed due to emotions being higher than people's ability to read, interpret, and properly respond to simple posts.

#7 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:33 AM

If I remember correctly Zetterberg never put up a ton of points in the Elitserien but then came over here and was runner up to the Calder.


Yes and no.

46 points in 47 games in his first SEL season in which he won what we know of as a rookie of the year award.
Then 32 points in 48 games in his second season where he ended up winning the MVP of the SEL.

It is very, very difficult to put up points in the SEL. It is probably the exact opposite of a league like say the QMJHL which is stereotypically known as a league where very few play real defense.

#8 Majsheppard

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 09:49 AM

I think that's a fair assessment. I dont see any of those players as being top line material (except smith i can see being a top 2 dman). We have depth in our farm system, but no marquee players. In other words, we have a replacement for Filppula, we have a replacement for Hudler, but when Dastyuk and Zetterberg and Franzen retire, there's no young blood that can fill their skates, at least at the moment.



I agree with your statement to an extent.

four points:

1. Every single top prospect in our system does seem to have a lower value than our top guys on the team. I do think this is common for all but the worst teams in the league, and even they rarely have anyone to replace their superstars. Even Columbus couldn't replace Nash with their farm, and they draft pretty high. I would say that you don't necessarily replace the top guys directly, nor do you have to within a certain time frame.

2. While I believe Tatar will be a top line sniper, Nyquvist will be a top six set up guy, Jurco will be a top line dynamic player, and the rest of the prospects can project to very big roles... I might agree with you that there might be no one that can be true superstars. I just also look back and see the projections of Pavel and Hank. Neither was thought to be superstars, and at some points they were thought of as 50/50 type players to make the team eventually by outside scouts. (with Zetter getting a much bigger vote of confidence early on by outsiders) I would even suggest that Zetter, while being a super-star in his own right, is in no way a replacement for Shanahan, Federov, or Yzerman. Yet he brings his own skills to the team and you make do with what you have and he has a lot. I can believe that Jurco, Pulkinen, Tatar, Calle and maybe someone we aren't focused on right now can deliver the same sort of ability.

3. I look at our farm (ONLY AT FORWARDS RIGHT NOW) and see in my mind six sure fire top six forwards. I see at least 12 more that could make the team and three of which I suspect should definately be on the team and maybe even be tweeners that could play top six but would likely fill a role (sort of like Cleary, Abs, Helm, Mursak could in my mind.) This is all without any further draft choices or free agent signings. I just find that there is the possiblity that we will have more talent then we have spots, and while some will underperform (anyone say Hudler???) We still would have many players of quality and maybe a few that step up beyond expectations.

4. People like Nugent-Hopkins were included in these rankings, so I understand a few A+ bluechip prospects would throw off the curve, yet a normal team is only supposed to have one of these guys in their organization and a great supporting cast to be championship caliber. We forget that only a few teams really end up having two elite level players on a team period let alone in the forward stables. I just assume that you don't rest on only those types of players in the system.



Bonus point: The Kings have supposedly had the best prospect system in rankings for years now and they haven't capitalized upon it. They can't find goal scoring and the biggest cornerstone of their franchise was a top end pick that went straight to the NHL. So we can take it all with a grain of salt.
"It is a lot easier to be an ******* to words than to people"-xkcd

Tootoo does NOT belong on this team. He is classless and I would rather see the Wings be bad than classless. I feel the same way about Bertuzzi as well, but he at least CAN make the team better. With Tootoo the team becomes worse and in danger of being classless. Would you have liked Claude on the team? Or Roy? No. So why would you be okay with that POS.

This thread has been closed due to emotions being higher than people's ability to read, interpret, and properly respond to simple posts.

#9 sputman

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:46 AM

I bet over 10 years ago we never would have thought Datsyuk would basically take the helm from Datsyuk


yeah but, do you think datsyuk can take the helm of the 2nd datsyuk?

:P
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#10 Nev

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:49 AM

I have always thought that fans of ALL teams have a tendancy to massively over-rate their own prospects. Once upon a time Kopecky and Hudler were tearing it up in the AHL, then they made the NHL and became perenniel whipping boys. I remember people here saying a young Lebda would one day be "elite". I remember when Kronwall was "Nick Jr" - he's turned into a pretty good player, but he's no Norris candidate.

Just for intrests sake, here is a list of our prospect rankings from 2007-2008 on RWC.

01 Jimmy Howard
02 Jakub Kindl
03 Justin Abdelkader
04 Cory Emmerton
05 Brendan Smith
06 Jan Mursak
07 Dick Axelsson
08 Jonathan Ericsson
09 Kyle Quincey
10 Darren Helm
11 Johan Ryno
12 Joakim Andersson
13 Logan Pyett
14 Ryan Oulahen
15 Mattias Ritola
16 Igor Grigorenko
17 Daniel Larsson
18 Evan McGrath
19 Zack Torquato
20 Anton Axelsson
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#11 rick zombo

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 10:58 AM

I have always thought that fans of ALL teams have a tendancy to massively over-rate their own prospects. Once upon a time Kopecky and Hudler were tearing it up in the AHL, then they made the NHL and became perenniel whipping boys. I remember people here saying a young Lebda would one day be "elite". I remember when Kronwall was "Nick Jr" - he's turned into a pretty good player, but he's no Norris candidate.

Just for intrests sake, here is a list of our prospect rankings from 2007-2008 on RWC.

01 Jimmy Howard
02 Jakub Kindl
03 Justin Abdelkader
04 Cory Emmerton
05 Brendan Smith
06 Jan Mursak
07 Dick Axelsson
08 Jonathan Ericsson
09 Kyle Quincey
10 Darren Helm
11 Johan Ryno
12 Joakim Andersson
13 Logan Pyett
14 Ryan Oulahen
15 Mattias Ritola
16 Igor Grigorenko
17 Daniel Larsson
18 Evan McGrath
19 Zack Torquato
20 Anton Axelsson


It's really great to think that 9 of the top 10 on that list are all playing in Detroit right now.
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#12 Crashnburnluder

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 11:34 AM

yeah but, do you think datsyuk can take the helm of the 2nd datsyuk?

:P


Damn hahaha.... I hate posting from my phone. I usually do it quick and never edit lol....

In the end Datsyuk 2 needs to become the next Datsyuk so that Datsyuk 3 has enough time to develop and fill Datsyuk 2's role in 10 or so years.... Let's just hope Datsyuk can play at a high level until Datsyuk 2 is ready to fill his role...

;)

Edited by Crashnburnluder, 09 March 2012 - 11:36 AM.


#13 hooon

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:18 PM

Reading this thread just reminded me of how Zetterberg was absolutely robbed of the Calder trophy.



One thing I'm sure their ranking system overlooks is not just WHO the prospects are but HOW they're developed. The Wings may not got the highest picks or the most NHL ready prospects right out of the gate, but they have to be up there as one of, if not THE, best teams at developing the talent they have.
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#14 egroen

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:57 PM

A recent tweet reveals that the new Hockey News Future watch has a weak forcast of the Wings farm system.


Brian Costello ‏ @bcostellothn
#RedWings have C+ rating and 4 prospects (Smith, Jarnkrok, Nyquist, Tatar) among top 75 in THN's upcoming #FutureWatch

Interesting...

Considering the Wings have had by far the worst drafting position in the NHL over any time period, anything better than dead last is great. No question the prospect pool is the strongest it has been in a long time.

Smith, Nyquist, Jarnkrok, Tatar and Pulkkinen all have performed very well as pros (against adults) already.

Smith and Nyquist are already AHL all-stars. Tatar was the youngest player in the AHL. Jarnkrok just finished 14th in SEL scoring (despite losing a fair amount of games to injury) and Pulkkinen recently broke Teemu Selanne's rookie scoring record in the Finnish elite league.

Jurco and Tvrdon put up a ton of points with their junior teams, while defensemen like Oullete and Sproul exploded to become all-star selections at defense (at very young ages). Even huge, lumbering Nedomlel just tripled his scoring from last year. Mrazek was the World Junior Championship most valuable goalie.

Then you have Sheahan and Jensen playing very well in college and defensemen like Marchenko, Backman and Almquist who could really surprise in the next couple years (my money is on Marchenko - who was made the face of Russian junior hockey and already playing in the KHL).

The prospect pool is the best it has been in 20 years, and it's exciting to keep up with their accomplishments... I'm very optimistic for the future.

Apparently a lot of teams were targeting Smith and Pulkkinen at the trade deadline.

Edited by egroen, 09 March 2012 - 02:24 PM.

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#15 Z Winged Dangler

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 01:58 PM

I don't get the ratings at all, I just read the flyers got a b- with no prospects in the top 75?

It just stands to reason something is wrong with their concept.

agreed 100%. not sure where the numbers are coming from. who do the Flyers have? Shenn and Couturier are already on the team, so who's waiting in the wings for them?

the Wings have tons of talent in the system. not just Tatar, Nyquist (potential top 3 fwd) and Smith. they have the likes of Jurco and Tvrdon. Then there's also Mrazek ready to take Mccollum's spot in GR very soon, there's Sheahan who should be a really good 2-way power forward, Jarnkrok who has seen comparisons to Zetterberg's play style and skill set and Pulkkinen who is a Brett Hull type player. Landon Ferraro has taken steps in GR to be a good 3rd/4th liner that can bring good energy and keep up with Helm and Mursak. Not sure what happened with Adam Almqvist, but he was putting up ridiculous numbers in Jr and then won the SEL championship with HV71 i believe, so he's obvoiusly got a good skill set as well, possibly a lot like Rafalski.

seems to me that the Wings just get the short straw on the ratings cause they never have a top 20 pick to work with since ??? Kindl? and then what? Yzerman...?

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#16 heikks86

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:14 PM

agreed 100%. not sure where the numbers are coming from. who do the Flyers have? Shenn and Couturier are already on the team, so who's waiting in the wings for them?

the Wings have tons of talent in the system. not just Tatar, Nyquist (potential top 3 fwd) and Smith. they have the likes of Jurco and Tvrdon. Then there's also Mrazek ready to take Mccollum's spot in GR very soon, there's Sheahan who should be a really good 2-way power forward, Jarnkrok who has seen comparisons to Zetterberg's play style and skill set and Pulkkinen who is a Brett Hull type player. Landon Ferraro has taken steps in GR to be a good 3rd/4th liner that can bring good energy and keep up with Helm and Mursak. Not sure what happened with Adam Almqvist, but he was putting up ridiculous numbers in Jr and then won the SEL championship with HV71 i believe, so he's obvoiusly got a good skill set as well, possibly a lot like Rafalski.

seems to me that the Wings just get the short straw on the ratings cause they never have a top 20 pick to work with since ??? Kindl? and then what? Yzerman...?


Kindl was the Wings first top 20 pick since Martin Lapointe was #10 in 1991

#17 paulwoodsfan

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 03:26 PM

I would love to see THN's 2001 ranking of RW prospects. I bet Datsyuk was not even on the list. So it's not a huge stretch to think that someone who is outside the top 75 in hockey today (Pulkinnen, say) might turn into a top-line NHLer.

#18 Namingway

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 04:37 PM

If you go by this system then Kirk Maltby would've been a top 3 forward :ph34r:
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#19 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 04:59 PM

I would love to see THN's 2001 ranking of RW prospects. I bet Datsyuk was not even on the list. So it's not a huge stretch to think that someone who is outside the top 75 in hockey today (Pulkinnen, say) might turn into a top-line NHLer.


True although it is much more rare and unlikely.

#20 Echolalia

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:16 PM

I agree with your statement to an extent.

four points:

1. Every single top prospect in our system does seem to have a lower value than our top guys on the team. I do think this is common for all but the worst teams in the league, and even they rarely have anyone to replace their superstars. Even Columbus couldn't replace Nash with their farm, and they draft pretty high. I would say that you don't necessarily replace the top guys directly, nor do you have to within a certain time frame.

2. While I believe Tatar will be a top line sniper, Nyquvist will be a top six set up guy, Jurco will be a top line dynamic player, and the rest of the prospects can project to very big roles... I might agree with you that there might be no one that can be true superstars. I just also look back and see the projections of Pavel and Hank. Neither was thought to be superstars, and at some points they were thought of as 50/50 type players to make the team eventually by outside scouts. (with Zetter getting a much bigger vote of confidence early on by outsiders) I would even suggest that Zetter, while being a super-star in his own right, is in no way a replacement for Shanahan, Federov, or Yzerman. Yet he brings his own skills to the team and you make do with what you have and he has a lot. I can believe that Jurco, Pulkinen, Tatar, Calle and maybe someone we aren't focused on right now can deliver the same sort of ability.

3. I look at our farm (ONLY AT FORWARDS RIGHT NOW) and see in my mind six sure fire top six forwards. I see at least 12 more that could make the team and three of which I suspect should definately be on the team and maybe even be tweeners that could play top six but would likely fill a role (sort of like Cleary, Abs, Helm, Mursak could in my mind.) This is all without any further draft choices or free agent signings. I just find that there is the possiblity that we will have more talent then we have spots, and while some will underperform (anyone say Hudler???) We still would have many players of quality and maybe a few that step up beyond expectations.

4. People like Nugent-Hopkins were included in these rankings, so I understand a few A+ bluechip prospects would throw off the curve, yet a normal team is only supposed to have one of these guys in their organization and a great supporting cast to be championship caliber. We forget that only a few teams really end up having two elite level players on a team period let alone in the forward stables. I just assume that you don't rest on only those types of players in the system.



Bonus point: The Kings have supposedly had the best prospect system in rankings for years now and they haven't capitalized upon it. They can't find goal scoring and the biggest cornerstone of their franchise was a top end pick that went straight to the NHL. So we can take it all with a grain of salt.


Good points although I do want to clarify that when I said player X may/may not replace player Y, I didn't refer to their skill set as much as their role on the team. I think my wording implied otherwise...





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