Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Call the team out


  • Please log in to reply
113 replies to this topic

#21 b.shanafan14

b.shanafan14

    One good Swede deserves another!

  • Silver Booster
  • 2,872 posts
  • Location:Upper Peninsula, Michigan

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:24 AM

The guys I was referring to that have stepped up are Z and Fil. Franzen, I'll grant you but I'm talking about the guys that we rely on to be top-end with an injured lineup or not.

TBH, I just think people are getting pissy simply because this team is playing to a level that should be expected with the lineup they're currently icing unfortunately at one of the most crucial times of the regular season.

There is an injury bug every season, around this same time, to a similar degree. Its strange, almost like clockwork you get to late February and players start dropping like flies. Babcock can only play Fil and Z 20 minutes or so a night, less on back-to-backs, so the team sorely needs Hudler to improve or be replaces and Franzen to play like he is capable of. Neither of these are happening. Cleary is either injured and should grab a seat, or healthy and should grab a seat. White should be playing better and the Wings PP should shoot the puck more, things that can happen with the current lineup.

The most frustrating thing about Injury Season 2012 isn't the players who are out or up, its the players who continue to slack and waste the efforts of the few players we have going. I'd rather see any of Miller, Abdelkader, or Nyquist up with Val and Hank, over someone like Hudler, at least then they would all be skating hard. It might be time to put all of our eggs in two baskets, so to speak. Let the 4th line continue to suck; there's no helping them. Leave the energy line intact and give them second line minutes. Let the third line become the float line, Hudler-Franzen-Cleary. And give Filppula and Zetterberg young skilled help in Nyquist.

Passengers no longer benefit from while hindering the workers, improving the top lines and hopefully forcing the floaters to do less floating.

#22 NeverForgetMac25

NeverForgetMac25

    Kate: Jr. Wing Nut

  • Gold Booster Mod
  • 18,184 posts
  • Location:Green Bay, WI

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:28 AM

I think people are getting pissy because other teams lose guys and keep rolling. This team loses a guy and falls apart and I think everyone has been pissed about the PP and its not injuries that are causing that problem.

I've already agreed that the PP has been abysmal and needs a shakeup. How much of a shakeup can they really give it with guys like Dats, Lids and Bert out....I doubt much.

As for teams losing guys and continuing to roll, I don't believe any team that loses 7 starters continues to roll. Show me one team that has done so *over the long haul* with a similar talent equivalent out and I'll be more than happy to admit I'm wrong.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#23 NeverForgetMac25

NeverForgetMac25

    Kate: Jr. Wing Nut

  • Gold Booster Mod
  • 18,184 posts
  • Location:Green Bay, WI

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:35 AM

There is an injury bug every season, around this same time, to a similar degree. Its strange, almost like clockwork you get to late February and players start dropping like flies. Babcock can only play Fil and Z 20 minutes or so a night, less on back-to-backs, so the team sorely needs Hudler to improve or be replaces and Franzen to play like he is capable of. Neither of these are happening. Cleary is either injured and should grab a seat, or healthy and should grab a seat. White should be playing better and the Wings PP should shoot the puck more, things that can happen with the current lineup.

The most frustrating thing about Injury Season 2012 isn't the players who are out or up, its the players who continue to slack and waste the efforts of the few players we have going. I'd rather see any of Miller, Abdelkader, or Nyquist up with Val and Hank, over someone like Hudler, at least then they would all be skating hard. It might be time to put all of our eggs in two baskets, so to speak. Let the 4th line continue to suck; there's no helping them. Leave the energy line intact and give them second line minutes. Let the third line become the float line, Hudler-Franzen-Cleary. And give Filppula and Zetterberg young skilled help in Nyquist.

Passengers no longer benefit from while hindering the workers, improving the top lines and hopefully forcing the floaters to do less floating.

At the risk of sounding like Eva, Hudler hasn't been nearly as bad as people are making him out to be. The guy has put up 42 points so far this season, half of which are goals. Are some of them luck or the result of good linemates, of course. However, name one NHL'er who doesn't get lucky goals or benefits from playing with good linemates. s***, Z scores some terribly lucky goals. His off-angle shots always magically go in and sometimes they tend to fall when he's in his worst slumps.

Again, I'm in the same boat with you as Franzen. Cleary hasn't been himself much of the season either, but I expect way more out of Franzen than I do #11.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#24 rrasco

rrasco

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,095 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:46 AM

It's frustrating to watch, but if you think this has nothing to do with injuries you are as high as I want to be. We have roughly 1/3 of our cap inured...how can you not correlate that to the rash of losses? The most frustrating part has to be that it has been affecting the standings which is the hardest to swallow. Sure it would be nice to have Franzen show up for a full 60 minutes, but he can't be expected to carry the entire load; Mule or not. You can definitely tell when he gets angry and turns it on; he just needs to do it more often.

For the record, it's 4 SHGA in 8 games. Yes, it still sucks, but if you're going to ***** about it, at least get the facts straight. They only said it about 10 times during the game last night. Sometimes I wonder if people doing the most bitching actually watch the games at all.

Kronwalled.net - Keep Yer Head up Kid


#25 korrowan

korrowan

    3rd Line Checker

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 358 posts
  • Location:Glenside, PA

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:52 AM

I've already agreed that the PP has been abysmal and needs a shakeup. How much of a shakeup can they really give it with guys like Dats, Lids and Bert out....I doubt much.

As for teams losing guys and continuing to roll, I don't believe any team that loses 7 starters continues to roll. Show me one team that has done so *over the long haul* with a similar talent equivalent out and I'll be more than happy to admit I'm wrong.


The only guys that matter that are out are Lids and Dats. The other 5 'starters' are replaceable and Eaves hasn't played in ages. Kindl was scratched half the time, Ericsson has been better but Quincy and Smith are both better IMO, Bert only plays when he feels like it and MacDonald kept the team in games with saves goalies shouldn't have to be making.

They are really only down 2 guys that matter IMO. Everyone else that was / is hurt can be replaced or their replacement played close to their level (Howard's case). Either way the defensive lapses that occur and the turn overs are not being made by the guys that are replacements anyway. Its the bottom line, Kronwall, White, Hudler etc that are making the bone headed plays that end up being odd man rushes / 1v1 or guys not clearing the puck after Howard makes crazy saves like last night.

So you are asking me to find a team that has one of the best D men EVER and arguably the best 2 way forward in the game out. Well Pittsburgh is the closest I can come and since March 1st when Letang got hurt they went 5-0 with Crosby still out. Just sayin.

#26 Frozen-Man

Frozen-Man

    Thanks for the memories

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,579 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:53 AM

I think people are getting pissy because other teams lose guys and keep rolling. This team loses a guy and falls apart and I think everyone has been pissed about the PP and its not injuries that are causing that problem.


I don't think that Jimmy, Pavs. Lids, Big Rig, Kindl, Bert, and Eaves are "a guy" . . . nor are three of those players regular "guys" --- You are talking about far and away the best forward on the team (and one of if not the best in the league), far and away the best defenseman on the team (and one of if not the best in the league), and a goalie that people on this site and elsewhere were saying should be considered (although probably not win) the Vezina (and also mentions of a Hart Trophy candidate). Other teams do not lose the combo of guys like that (along with the other four and a severly hobbled Cleary) and just "keep rolling"

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain


#27 rrasco

rrasco

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,095 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:57 AM

The only guys that matter that are out are Lids and Dats.


Those are two HUGE guys in our lineup. Best two-way forward in the league? Best defenseman in the league? $12 mil that we have sitting on the shelf and can't replace. I'm sure at least Crosby was on IR so they could use his cap space? I'm just guessing, but sounds reasonable.

Kronwalled.net - Keep Yer Head up Kid


#28 NeverForgetMac25

NeverForgetMac25

    Kate: Jr. Wing Nut

  • Gold Booster Mod
  • 18,184 posts
  • Location:Green Bay, WI

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:00 AM

The only guys that matter that are out are Lids and Dats. The other 5 'starters' are replaceable and Eaves hasn't played in ages. Kindl was scratched half the time, Ericsson has been better but Quincy and Smith are both better IMO, Bert only plays when he feels like it and MacDonald kept the team in games with saves goalies shouldn't have to be making.

They are really only down 2 guys that matter IMO. Everyone else that was / is hurt can be replaced or their replacement played close to their level (Howard's case). Either way the defensive lapses that occur and the turn overs are not being made by the guys that are replacements anyway. Its the bottom line, Kronwall, White, Hudler etc that are making the bone headed plays that end up being odd man rushes / 1v1 or guys not clearing the puck after Howard makes crazy saves like last night.

So you are asking me to find a team that has one of the best D men EVER and arguably the best 2 way forward in the game out. Well Pittsburgh is the closest I can come and since March 1st when Letang got hurt they went 5-0 with Crosby still out. Just sayin.

So you're saying they weren't missing 5 other regulars? That's my point. We can sit here and debate over the importance of those other 5, but I'd argue that they are put of the team chemistry and simply replacing them with GR kids isn't going to have the same effect.

I've been hearing LGW complain about floaters ever since I started viewing this site. It's funny how everyone seems to think all (or most) of the floaters in the league just happened to be on the Wings. Not everyone's style is "in your face" every second of every game. Having guys like Helm and Abdelkader on the team only display the discrepancy between role players who aren't every-game scorers and that of guys who are. No team in the NHL has 6 scorers and 6 tenacious forecheckers.

Guys do different things. Now would be the time for everyone to do some self-reflection and determine the ending they want for this season. Even still, it doesn't mean you're going to get it.
It's amazing how much clarity comes when you care more about the Red Wings than any individual player.


"They are the best team in the world. They are a team that can just take over when they want to," Chicago's Patrick Kane said (of the Detroit Red Wings).

#29 Frozen-Man

Frozen-Man

    Thanks for the memories

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,579 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:04 AM

The only guys that matter that are out are Lids and Dats. The other 5 'starters' are replaceable and Eaves hasn't played in ages. Kindl was scratched half the time, Ericsson has been better but Quincy and Smith are both better IMO, Bert only plays when he feels like it and MacDonald kept the team in games with saves goalies shouldn't have to be making.

They are really only down 2 guys that matter IMO. Everyone else that was / is hurt can be replaced or their replacement played close to their level (Howard's case). Either way the defensive lapses that occur and the turn overs are not being made by the guys that are replacements anyway. Its the bottom line, Kronwall, White, Hudler etc that are making the bone headed plays that end up being odd man rushes / 1v1 or guys not clearing the puck after Howard makes crazy saves like last night.

So you are asking me to find a team that has one of the best D men EVER and arguably the best 2 way forward in the game out. Well Pittsburgh is the closest I can come and since March 1st when Letang got hurt they went 5-0 with Crosby still out. Just sayin.


Couldn't disagree more. First, regardless of if they can be replaced there is a problem anytime you have 7 regular players out of your lineup. It messes with the team chemistry (that is why teams are often wary about moves at the trade deadline unless they need to change the chemistry), also you are talking about 1/2 of your regular defensive lineup that has to have an effect on a team especially one playing in front of a career AHL goalie (even if he is playing really well - you just assume it won't last). Second, Cleary should be out but of his knee but can't and is playing severely hobbled. Third, did you really compare Letang to Lids in any degree? Forth, as mentioned above Joey played well while Jimmy was hurt but no one would think of giving him a couple year contract and going with him as your starting goalie. The team knows this even if they feel comfortable with how he is currently playing careerwise he is not a NHL starting goaltender and that affects how a team plays in front of him. Finally, dismiss Bert all you want but Babs was raving about him before got hurt and the team thought he was playing great enough to give him a two year contract and raise his pay (they obviously don't think he is that "easily replaceable").

Bottom, you don't just swap out 7 players including your two best and your starting goaltender and that not have an enormous impact.

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain


#30 Heroes of Hockeytown

Heroes of Hockeytown

    Big Goal Bob

  • Bronze Booster
  • 13,729 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:07 AM

So you are asking me to find a team that has one of the best D men EVER and arguably the best 2 way forward in the game out. Well Pittsburgh is the closest I can come and since March 1st when Letang got hurt they went 5-0 with Crosby still out. Just sayin.

Lucky for them they've got Malkin to pick them up; few teams can boast such an effective "Plan B."

Injuries are always frustrating, and so hopelessly out of anyone's control. We want to believe that a little more heart or grit or whatever will get the job done, but the fact of the matter is you need talent; a second line of Nyquist-Franzen-Cleary isn't going to do it.

Pavel coming back will have a huge cascade effect on the lineup. You add one guy that is great at scoring, can put guys next to him that are otherwise being wasted without a good setup man, and can demote players playing above their normal station back to lines where they are more comfortable.
"We've been in the same spot all year long. We won 50 games for the fourth year in a row. People think we're just hum-drum and boring.
No, you know what we are, we're good. You can't do what we do every single day and not be good." - Mike Babcock

#31 Frozen-Man

Frozen-Man

    Thanks for the memories

  • Gold Booster
  • 1,579 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:13 AM

Lucky for them they've got Malkin to pick them up; few teams can boast such an effective "Plan B."

Injuries are always frustrating, and so hopelessly out of anyone's control. We want to believe that a little more heart or grit or whatever will get the job done, but the fact of the matter is you need talent; a second line of Nyquist-Franzen-Cleary isn't going to do it.

Pavel coming back will have a huge cascade effect on the lineup. You add one guy that is great at scoring, can put guys next to him that are otherwise being wasted without a good setup man, and can demote players playing above their normal station back to lines where they are more comfortable.


Exactly, additionally it means that teams have to focus their best defensemen on Pavel and so each line below gets to play with less defensive pressure against them. The impact of everyone not having to play above their roll/ability when Pavel and Lids are back cannot be underestimated.

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain


#32 rrasco

rrasco

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,095 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:15 AM

Exactly, additionally it means that teams have to focus their best defensemen on Pavel and so each line below gets to play with less defensive pressure against them. The impact of everyone not having to play above their roll/ability when Pavel and Lids are back cannot be underestimated.


That's a good point. Match ups are less of an issue for teams as it stands. Would you rather have to match up your lines against Zetterberg, or Pavel and Zetterberg? Right now there is only one line for the opposition to contend with, getting Pavel back spreads out the talent on both sides. I guess that brings us back to what we already knew though, we currently have no depth.

Kronwalled.net - Keep Yer Head up Kid


#33 Hiei

Hiei

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,290 posts
  • Location:Centerton, AR via Mt. Carroll, IL

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:27 AM

I know holland wants the prospects over-ripe, but with Nyquist, Andersson, Kindl, Smith, Emmerton, and Mursak banging on the door hard this year, I cannot justify us hanging on to some of these other players. Hudler for one (Sorry Huds, you don't get my vote for mayor anymore) and probably also Cleary (after next year). Homer and Lidstrom are set to retire, Stuart is likely gone to the west coast. Helm, Abby, Quincey are up for Re-signing. I don't think Holland would've gotten Quincey had he not intended to sign him over the offseason. Janik is UFA this year.


Simply put, we need an effective plan B. and is it just me, or do we need to take Hudler off the 2nd line and put Cleary there maybe? park his ass in front of the net?

"Hit em with your purse, ya *****!" - Random Wings fans shouting at Franziska


#34 GMRwings1983

GMRwings1983

    The Killer is Me

  • Silver Booster
  • 20,833 posts
  • Location:Jerkwater, USA

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:34 AM

How come the Pens were going on win streaks with their best player out? Sometimes even with Malkin and others out as well?

It'd be nice if the other players just stepped up and played that much harder. But instead, we have a built in excuse for this next week or so. It's a little frustrating to say the least.
According to my profile, my reputation is excellent. LOL.

#35 sleepwalker

sleepwalker

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,067 posts

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:36 AM

We cannot continue with this injury blaming BS. It is not helping matters but it is not the sole reason we have issues. The issues have been there before the injuries. This team just lacks urgency and consistency much of the time.





Exactly.

I am getting tired of hearing the same lame "when we get Dats and Lids back, we'll be perfect again" Maybe in some ideal fantasy world, yes. But in reality that ignores the facts that the PP still sucked before they left along with the points mentioned above. Its a lame excuse that ignores the fact that the team had the same problems with them in the lineup.

And I don't even know what to say about the PP. Its been absolutely dismal all year. Wings are currently under 16% on the PP. Think about that. That is beyond horrible for the Wings.

#36 Nightfall

Nightfall

    My goal is to deny yours!

  • Gold Booster
  • 3,753 posts
  • Location:Grand Rapids

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:50 AM

I have no issues calling the team out for lack of hustle. That is what we saw yesterday. When you look at Pittsburgh, who was missing Crosby, Letang, and Staal for a bit earlier this year, you didn't see their other guys slacking. Their callups have been super, and if they aren't scoring, they are hustling. I believe that the Wings callups should be doing the same thing, but they are not.

Every team is going to go through a tough spell. The Wings have had a couple cold stretches where they haven't been very good. Injuries or not, the team has to weather the storm and come out of it for the better. Go ahead, call out the players. I believe that when the Wings get healthy and their chemistry back, the wins will come. In order to win the Stanley cup, a team has to have good goaltending, be healthy, and have some puck luck. I think this team will be healthy come playoff time, and that will be a huge factor.

Edited by Nightfall, 14 March 2012 - 11:51 AM.

Christopher Brian Dudek
My Domain

#37 GMRwings1983

GMRwings1983

    The Killer is Me

  • Silver Booster
  • 20,833 posts
  • Location:Jerkwater, USA

Posted 14 March 2012 - 11:52 AM

Someone needs to call out Ian White for his recent play.

I know Lidstrom makes everyone looks better, but this guy has presumably played hockey without Lidstrom at some point in his career. He just looks lost out there in front of his own net.
According to my profile, my reputation is excellent. LOL.

#38 Echolalia

Echolalia

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,055 posts
  • Location:fab ferndale

Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:02 PM

Special teams have always been a point of concern this year and it is something that the Wings will have to work on, but they can't do much in the state they're currently in. Injuries absolutely play a role in the play we have witnessed, and I think a much larger role than a lot of folks may realize. When a player goes down, you aren't just losing his point total. You lose the chemistry that he has with his teammates, you lose the attention that he gets from the opposition, you lose the special skill set that your team has been designed to compliment. Datsyuk and lidstrom are obviously huge losses for the Wings, but Bertuzzi, Kindl, Eriksson, etc are all significant losses too, based on the above. They're being replaced with guys with capable skill, but little to no experience with the team, their linemates, or the system. That pulls down the play of everyone. I'm seeing a lot of bad passes and a lot more miscommunication, and it has resulted directly into shorthanded goals against, even strength goals against, power play goals against, prevented us from establishing the offensive zone (the only line that seems comfortable with neutral zone passing is Zetterberg's line), prevented us from even getting scoring opportunities. When guys start returning, these problems should disappear, and they can get back to focusing on road wins, power plays, penalty kills, and whatever else plagued them when they were healthy. Babs and co will say they're working on it now, but with the lineup they have it's just not possible, and none of these issues will be fixed until our lineup starts to resemble what it was a month ago.

#39 Z Winged Dangler

Z Winged Dangler

    Part 3: Return of the Hammer Hands

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,219 posts
  • Location:Winnipeg, MB

Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:30 PM

The only regular on the powerplay point that is out is Lidstrom. Kronwall, White, and Hudler all got regular time there. Quincey has played the point a lot before he got here, and Smith is only being thrown in because Hudler is just that bad.

Let's not make excuses for just how incredibly bad this powerplay has been.

one of the main reasons the PP is so terrible is cause of the constant giveaways on each unit by Homer and Cleary. They are both somewhat weak at carrying the puck through any traffic whatsoever and end up blindly throwing the puck away and unfortunately 8 out of 10 times it goes directly to the other team. another point on Homer is his lack of points. if he's not producing anything in what?...20 games? then get him off the PP and move Hudler up to forward. atleast Huds can one-time the puck. Homer needs to hang out in the press box. and keep Nyquist up and maybe toss him on the PP with Dats and Mule when Dats is back.

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#40 Chunkylover

Chunkylover

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 772 posts
  • Location:Belleville

Posted 14 March 2012 - 12:32 PM

There are two ways to inspire performance: fear and love.

A coach can yell at his players and chide them personally in the media and maybe get them to perform at a high level for a while, but eventually that method burns itself out. No one wants to be angry all the time, and eventually players stop caring.

The alternative is to take the long-view approach. Set a goal and encourage people to perform in a positive way. This way can seem ineffective to outsiders, but the coach and players know they are all on the same team and support each other.

Think about what environment you perform your best work in. Ask yourself whether you can maintain the standard for performance in your job that you hold over these players. The goal is to win, and laziness needs to be discouraged, but these constant calls for benching players or calling them out reflects confusion of what constitutes effective leadership.





Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users