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Crosby

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  1. 1. Is Crosby the best player in the NHL?

    • Yes
      43
    • No
      72

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81 posts in this topic

He's easily the best 3rd line Centre in the league right now. Wonder how much better he'll get when his minutes increase and he gets better linemates.

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Why does Crosby have to be better defensively than Datsyuk in order to be considered the best player in the league?

So if Crosby is on pace to finish say 40 points ahead of Datsyuk if they both played full seasons, people would still say Pavel is better because he's better defensively.

I mean Gretzky and Lemieux weren't better two way players than Messier, but what idiot would say he was better than those guys?

I just don't get that argument. Sure Pavel is a better two way player than Crosby, but so are many other players in the league. Being the best two-way forward doesn't necessarily make you the best player in the league if one guy is just that much better offensively.

Why does Datsyuk have to have more points than Crosby in order to be considered to be the best player in the league? Datsyuk gives up points to play defense. Crosby does not. This an old argument. One that used to involve Yzerman and Lemieux and Gretzky. Who's better? A player with 199 points and doesn't play defense? Or a player that gets 155 points and helps prevent the puck from going into his own net? I don't necessarily know if there's a right answer to this, it really comes down to preference. The people that think Datsyuk is better believe that if he played Crosby's kind of game, he would have more points, while if Crosby played Datsyuk's style, he wouldn't do as well as Datsyuk is now.

Personally, I think Datsyuk is better because he's more valuable when going for a championship. Defense plays a huge part in the playoffs and scoring machines typically get slowed down in the postseason.

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Why does Datsyuk have to have more points than Crosby in order to be considered to be the best player in the league? Datsyuk gives up points to play defense. Crosby does not. This an old argument. One that used to involve Yzerman and Lemieux and Gretzky. Who's better? A player with 199 points and doesn't play defense? Or a player that gets 155 points and helps prevent the puck from going into his own net? I don't necessarily know if there's a right answer to this, it really comes down to preference. The people that think Datsyuk is better believe that if he played Crosby's kind of game, he would have more points, while if Crosby played Datsyuk's style, he wouldn't do as well as Datsyuk is now.

Personally, I think Datsyuk is better because he's more valuable when going for a championship. Defense plays a huge part in the playoffs and scoring machines typically get slowed down in the postseason.

Yzerman is not better than either Lemieux or Gretzky, so now you are just looking like a gigantic homer.

Secondly, if Crosby beat Datsyuk by 40 points during any season, there is no chance in hell that Datsyuk changing his game would lead to that many more points. Especially since he gets a good portion of his offense now from his defensive game.

The funny thing is that Crosby can play defense (in 2010 he had more shorthanded time on ice than Datsyuk *GASP*), yet people act like he is terrible in his own end.

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Yzerman is not better than either Lemieux or Gretzky, so now you are just looking like a gigantic homer.

Secondly, if Crosby beat Datsyuk by 40 points during any season, there is no chance in hell that Datsyuk changing his game would lead to that many more points. Especially since he gets a good portion of his offense now from his defensive game.

The funny thing is that Crosby can play defense (in 2010 he had more shorthanded time on ice than Datsyuk *GASP*), yet people act like he is terrible in his own end.

I was really surprised by your shorthanded time on ice stat so I went back and checked. In 2010-2011 season Pav had 37:19 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:39 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 19:21 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:28 of shorthanded ice time per game. I decided maybe you meant the 2009-2010 season so I went and looked back there as well. In that season you are correct Pav had 59:71 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:44 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 71:54 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:53 of shorthanded ice time per game.

Mostly I was just surprised, I didn't think about Crosby being on the ice shorthanded that often, and wanted to provide the actual stats.

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Crosby is a damn good player ,no doubt about it. The thing that bothers me the most about him is the media's urge to constantly shove him down my throat.... There are other great players in this league.

I know this post was from a while ago, but with the release of some post-season adverts recently there's been no Crosby/Penguin love. It's been Dats, the Sedins, Lundqvist, Rangers, Bruins. So far. So I don't think they're really forcing him down our throats as much these days. If they plaster him over the NHL homepage after a particular game, it's probably because he is the best player in the league and he's doing well after so long out.

I was really surprised by your shorthanded time on ice stat so I went back and checked. In 2010-2011 season Pav had 37:19 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:39 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 19:21 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:28 of shorthanded ice time per game. I decided maybe you meant the 2009-2010 season so I went and looked back there as well. In that season you are correct Pav had 59:71 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:44 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 71:54 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:53 of shorthanded ice time per game.

Mostly I was just surprised, I didn't think about Crosby being on the ice shorthanded that often, and wanted to provide the actual stats.

That's the thing, you rarely see Dats out there short handed these days, bit more the other night now Helm is out, but it's usually the bottom 6 guys, maybe Fil or Z. It's like we're trying to make him our premier offensive guy which has lead to some slightly increased numbers and greater publicity, but it also means the 'better 2-way player' argument is getting closer. Not saying Sid is the better defensive player, but he's improved a hell of a lot.

Interesting though how a defenceman is never mentioned in the 'best player' argument either. Saw a stat in the game against Washington I think it was, that said Lids has a +/- of 454, whilst second all time in franchise history was Fedorov with +200-odd. But alas I guess Dmen just don't really get the goals that win games.

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I know this post was from a while ago, but with the release of some post-season adverts recently there's been no Crosby/Penguin love. It's been Dats, the Sedins, Lundqvist, Rangers, Bruins. So far. So I don't think they're really forcing him down our throats as much these days. If they plaster him over the NHL homepage after a particular game, it's probably because he is the best player in the league and he's doing well after so long out.

That's the thing, you rarely see Dats out there short handed these days, bit more the other night now Helm is out, but it's usually the bottom 6 guys, maybe Fil or Z. It's like we're trying to make him our premier offensive guy which has lead to some slightly increased numbers and greater publicity, but it also means the 'better 2-way player' argument is getting closer. Not saying Sid is the better defensive player, but he's improved a hell of a lot.

Interesting though how a defenceman is never mentioned in the 'best player' argument either. Saw a stat in the game against Washington I think it was, that said Lids has a +/- of 454, whilst second all time in franchise history was Fedorov with +200-odd. But alas I guess Dmen just don't really get the goals that win games.

Defense isn't flashy

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Yzerman is not better than either Lemieux or Gretzky, so now you are just looking like a gigantic homer.

Thanks. However, you have to concede that comparing players based on points is ridiculous. Players like Yzerman and Datsyuk never get mentioned in these type of discussions because they backcheck, which is wrong. If Yzerman wasn't backchecking all the time and cherry picked at the opponents blue line, who is to say he wouldn't have as many points as Lemieux or Gretzky in a season.

The funny thing is that Crosby can play defense (in 2010 he had more shorthanded time on ice than Datsyuk *GASP*), yet people act like he is terrible in his own end.

Don't know where you came up with those numbers. I see a lot of Pens games and I saw Cooke, Staal, Adams and Rupp out there a ton, not Crosby. When he's out there, its right before the penalty expires.

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I was really surprised by your shorthanded time on ice stat so I went back and checked. In 2010-2011 season Pav had 37:19 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:39 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 19:21 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:28 of shorthanded ice time per game. I decided maybe you meant the 2009-2010 season so I went and looked back there as well. In that season you are correct Pav had 59:71 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:44 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 71:54 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:53 of shorthanded ice time per game.

Mostly I was just surprised, I didn't think about Crosby being on the ice shorthanded that often, and wanted to provide the actual stats.

I did mean the 2009 2010 stats and the entire premise was simply to dispel the notion that Crosby can't hold Datsyuk's jock defensively. He is a center and to be successful at the position he has to have some amount of defensive awareness and ability.

Thanks. However, you have to concede that comparing players based on points is ridiculous. Players like Yzerman and Datsyuk never get mentioned in these type of discussions because they backcheck, which is wrong. If Yzerman wasn't backchecking all the time and cherry picked at the opponents blue line, who is to say he wouldn't have as many points as Lemieux or Gretzky in a season.

He wouldn't, because even with abandoning defensive play he couldn't touch either of their single season records in points. There is a reason nobody has.

Points aren't everything, but they do mean a lot.

Don't know where you came up with those numbers. I see a lot of Pens games and I saw Cooke, Staal, Adams and Rupp out there a ton, not Crosby. When he's out there, its right before the penalty expires.

I came up with them by looking at the stats.

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He wouldn't, because even with abandoning defensive play he couldn't touch either of their single season records in points. There is a reason nobody has.

That's simply your opinion. Logic would dictate that if a forward spent more time in the offensive zone and less time in the neutral zone or his own zone, he would see an increase in points. Someone scoring 130-150 points a year would see a pretty strong increase in offensive numbers if they played a more offensive minded game.

I came up with them by looking at the stats.

Nice snarky answer. For all the big offensive numbers Crosby puts up, he hasn't finished with more than a +20. In fact, when he won the Art Ross in '07 he finished with one of the lowest +/- totals in the history of the NHL for a recipient of that award. In '09 he had 103 points and was just a +3. Even the year he scored 109 points and led the league in goals, he finished with just a +15. Seems to me, if he's good defensively, with all the points he accumulates, shouldn't his +/- be much higher? Datsyuk was able to finish with a +41 in a year he scored 97 points. A +36 in a year when he got 87 points. Now comes the part where you say "plus minus doesn't matter", but those 20 seconds Crosby plays at the end of a penalty kill against a teams 2nd PP unit means more.

I did mean the 2009 2010 stats and the entire premise was simply to dispel the notion that Crosby can't hold Datsyuk's jock defensively.

Datsyuk has 3 Selke trophies, good for 2nd all time. Crosby hasn't even been close to a nomination.

edicius likes this

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That's simply your opinion. Logic would dictate that if a forward spent more time in the offensive zone and less time in the neutral zone or his own zone, he would see an increase in points. Someone scoring 130-150 points a year would see a pretty strong increase in offensive numbers if they played a more offensive minded game.

Nice snarky answer. For all the big offensive numbers Crosby puts up, he hasn't finished with more than a +20. In fact, when he won the Art Ross in '07 he finished with one of the lowest +/- totals in the history of the NHL for a recipient of that award. In '09 he had 103 points and was just a +3. Even the year he scored 109 points and led the league in goals, he finished with just a +15. Seems to me, if he's good defensively, with all the points he accumulates, shouldn't his +/- be much higher? Datsyuk was able to finish with a +41 in a year he scored 97 points. A +36 in a year when he got 87 points. Now comes the part where you say "plus minus doesn't matter", but those 20 seconds Crosby plays at the end of a penalty kill against a teams 2nd PP unit means more.

Datsyuk has 3 Selke trophies, good for 2nd all time. Crosby hasn't even been close to a nomination.

Please don't use +/- as an argument, it is a flawed stat, but if you really insist, Crosby has 21pts in 12 games this year and is a +14, Datsyuk has 60pts in 61 games and is a +19......what does that tell you? It doesn't tell me anything at all really, but based on what you are saying, it would appear as though Crosby must be much better defensively, right?

Look, no one is going to argue that Crosby is better defensively than Datsyuk (at least not right now). I will argue that he is just as good if not better defensively than Datsyuk was at the same age though. None of that matters though, fact is, Datsyuk is one of the best forwards out there defensively, Crosby is not one of the best, but he is certainly responsible and continues to improve that area. So, Datsyuk gets the edge there, but the edge he has there is much smaller than the edge Crosby has offensively.

The other problem is measuring defense is very difficult. Datsyuk probably gets more credit than he should defensively for his takeaway stats. But how else can you measure defense? +/-.....yikes, I hope not. I wouldn't look at penalty killing either because Datsyuk was like the 5th option on the Wings but still one Selke. The Pens started to play Crosby there, but will likely hold him back quite a bit until he gets back into the lineup for the long term. The big issue with puting stars out on the PK is risk of injury.

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That's simply your opinion. Logic would dictate that if a forward spent more time in the offensive zone and less time in the neutral zone or his own zone, he would see an increase in points. Someone scoring 130-150 points a year would see a pretty strong increase in offensive numbers if they played a more offensive minded game.

Gretzky and Lemieux are two of the top 3 players of all time. Yzerman isn't even top 10. There is a reason for that. He never had the offensive skills in any point in his career that Lemieux and Gretz had in their primes. That isn't even arguable.

Nice snarky answer. For all the big offensive numbers Crosby puts up, he hasn't finished with more than a +20. In fact, when he won the Art Ross in '07 he finished with one of the lowest +/- totals in the history of the NHL for a recipient of that award. In '09 he had 103 points and was just a +3. Even the year he scored 109 points and led the league in goals, he finished with just a +15. Seems to me, if he's good defensively, with all the points he accumulates, shouldn't his +/- be much higher? Datsyuk was able to finish with a +41 in a year he scored 97 points. A +36 in a year when he got 87 points. Now comes the part where you say "plus minus doesn't matter", but those 20 seconds Crosby plays at the end of a penalty kill against a teams 2nd PP unit means more.

Lidstrom was a -2 and won the Norris. Next.

Also, if you don't want a snarky answer, don't act like just by watching Crosby a few times you know for a fact how often he plays in a certain situation. The NHL website has all that information right there.

Datsyuk has 3 Selke trophies, good for 2nd all time. Crosby hasn't even been close to a nomination.

Everyone knows that the Selke is a primarily reputation based award. The fact that Datsyuk has won it over players (Zetterberg included) who over the past few years have had greater defensive responsibilities (PK time is a huge reason why him winning 3 in a row is suspect to me) and defensive performance makes me wonder why people decide to use it as an indicator of who is truly the best defensive forward.

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All I came in to say is I'm pleasantly surprised that people actually seem to respect Crosby's game now. Figured I was the only one. The guy is just an absolutely treat to watch and I'm glad he's back healthy. I'd love to see a rematch Finals if the Wings can get it together.

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Gretzky and Lemieux are two of the top 3 players of all time. Yzerman isn't even top 10. There is a reason for that. He never had the offensive skills in any point in his career that Lemieux and Gretz had in their primes.

Why do you think that? Because of their point totals? Around and around we go.

Also, if you don't want a snarky answer, don't act like just by watching Crosby a few times you know for a fact how often he plays in a certain situation. The NHL website has all that information right there.

Yeah, I just live in Pittsburgh and (unfortunately) see the Pens play all the time. What would I know about how and when Crosby plays? :rolleyes: Stats are great and are helpful to prove points, but they are misleading here. Crosby usually plays (or played, not so much now) the final 15-20 seconds of a PK, so he's out there when his team gets back to full strength. They're not putting him out there to "kill penalties". When the other team has their best PP unit out there, Cooke, Adams and their Selke candidate, Staal, play most of the two minutes.

Everyone knows that the Selke is a primarily reputation based award. The fact that Datsyuk has won it over players (Zetterberg included) who over the past few years have had greater defensive responsibilities (PK time is a huge reason why him winning 3 in a row is suspect to me) and defensive performance makes me wonder why people decide to use it as an indicator of who is truly the best defensive forward.

Yes, he has a good reputation because he's always one of the league leaders in steals and is out there for all the big PKs and at the end of the game. Datsyuk has earned that reputation of being a good defensive forward by playing really well defensively. He doesn't play much on the PK during the game because we have an entire lineup full of defensive minded forwards.

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I can't vote on this but I'll speak my mind. Crosby is an AMAZING player there's no dout about that. The way I mesaure a player in this type of question is by counting Stanley Cups, to me the Cup is the Ultimate. A player can score 100 Goals in a season and even amass 150 to 200 Points per season for their entire career and yes the will break records and be a part of Hockey History but in the end what's this game all about?.... The Stanley Cup. Crosby has one already and according to so many people I hear about or talk to believe he'll win numerous Cups in his career and that may be but as of right now dispite Crosby's outstanding come back and all his goals and points in my opnion Lidstrom is the best player in the NHL right now. I'm sure people will argue with my way of thinking but that's just how I am, in the end, at the end of a players NHL Career after all their Millions $$$$ are made and personal records achieved and broken the Stanley Cup is all that matters and how many Rings you've won.

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I can't vote on this but I'll speak my mind. Crosby is an AMAZING player there's no dout about that. The way I mesaure a player in this type of question is by counting Stanley Cups, to me the Cup is the Ultimate. A player can score 100 Goals in a season and even amass 150 to 200 Points per season for their entire career and yes the will break records and be a part of Hockey History but in the end what's this game all about?.... The Stanley Cup. Crosby has one already and according to so many people I hear about or talk to believe he'll win numerous Cups in his career and that may be but as of right now dispite Crosby's outstanding come back and all his goals and points in my opnion Lidstrom is the best player in the NHL right now. I'm sure people will argue with my way of thinking but that's just how I am, in the end, at the end of a players NHL Career after all their Millions $$$$ are made and personal records achieved and broken the Stanley Cup is all that matters and how many Rings you've won.

I'm sorry, but your logic is severely flawed. First of all, Lidstrom is no longer close to being the best player in the, that is a simple fact. You are putting him there just because teams he played on in the last 15 years happened to win more cups than other players in the league? How messed up is that.

All else being equal, you can use Cups as a measuring stick, but when it comes right down to it, it doesn't matter how good you are as a player or as a teammate, if you don't have other good players, a good team, to play with, you have no chance at the cup. This isn't the NBA where individuals have such an impact on the outcome.

Is Henri Richard the best NHL player of all time?

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Why do you think that? Because of their point totals? Around and around we go.

Because it is an undisputed fact (except around here I suppose) that Yzerman was never at the same level as Howe, Gretzky, Orr, or Lemieux. Only a Wings fan will imply that Yzerman was at their level.

Yeah, I just live in Pittsburgh and (unfortunately) see the Pens play all the time. What would I know about how and when Crosby plays? :rolleyes: Stats are great and are helpful to prove points, but they are misleading here. Crosby usually plays (or played, not so much now) the final 15-20 seconds of a PK, so he's out there when his team gets back to full strength. They're not putting him out there to "kill penalties". When the other team has their best PP unit out there, Cooke, Adams and their Selke candidate, Staal, play most of the two minutes.

Yet strangely enough played more PK time than Datsyuk. What did that say about Datsyuk's role on the PK that year?

I'm not saying Crosby is up to Datsyuk's level defensively. I'm saying that the gap between their defensive games isn't as wide as the gap between their offensive games. And the excuse "because he dedicates time to defense" is ridiculous because as centers they BOTH have to play a full 200 foot game for their team to be successful. We aren't talking about Datsyuk vs. Ovechkin here.

Yes, he has a good reputation because he's always one of the league leaders in steals and is out there for all the big PKs and at the end of the game. Datsyuk has earned that reputation of being a good defensive forward by playing really well defensively. He doesn't play much on the PK during the game because we have an entire lineup full of defensive minded forwards.

But if Datsyuk's defensive game is so amazing in comparison to his peers, he should be out there. Especially when Detroit's PK has been terribad for the last few years.

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I'm sorry, but your logic is severely flawed. First of all, Lidstrom is no longer close to being the best player in the, that is a simple fact. You are putting him there just because teams he played on in the last 15 years happened to win more cups than other players in the league? How messed up is that.

All else being equal, you can use Cups as a measuring stick, but when it comes right down to it, it doesn't matter how good you are as a player or as a teammate, if you don't have other good players, a good team, to play with, you have no chance at the cup. This isn't the NBA where individuals have such an impact on the outcome.

Is Henri Richard the best NHL player of all time?

My Logic is MY LOGIC, You can think it's flawed but that's the way I think and the way I feel. I may be wrong about Lidstorm being the best player but I don't believe that Crosby is the BEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME. I can't think the way I want and feel the way I feel and I'm somewhat offended in your wording becasue it's MY PERSONAL OPNION. It may not be a fact but the way I mesuare a player is by Stanley Cups whether it's a team effort or one player doing it all. I know that one player can't win a Team a Stanley Cup just because the Wings have won the most Cups in recent history doesn't mean that I think the Wings are the BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. Motreal Canadiens have 24 Stanley Cups so IMO The Habs are THE BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. My logic is not flawed my logic is my logic and that's just the way it is like it or not that's the way I feel and that's the way I mesaure a player is by Counting Their Cups!!

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My Logic is MY LOGIC, You can think it's flawed but that's the way I think and the way I feel. I may be wrong about Lidstorm being the best player but I don't believe that Crosby is the BEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME. I can't think the way I want and feel the way I feel and I'm somewhat offended in your wording becasue it's MY PERSONAL OPNION. It may not be a fact but the way I mesuare a player is by Stanley Cups whether it's a team effort or one player doing it all. I know that one player can't win a Team a Stanley Cup just because the Wings have won the most Cups in recent history doesn't mean that I think the Wings are the BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. Motreal Canadiens have 24 Stanley Cups so IMO The Habs are THE BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. My logic is not flawed my logic is my logic and that's just the way it is like it or not that's the way I feel and that's the way I mesaure a player is by Counting Their Cups!!

you seriously sound like a child. You didn't even attempt to defend your irrationality. THE EARTH IS FLAT!!!! THAT'S MY LOGIC AND I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU SAY!!!!!

AceInTheSleeve likes this

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My Logic is MY LOGIC, You can think it's flawed but that's the way I think and the way I feel. I may be wrong about Lidstorm being the best player but I don't believe that Crosby is the BEST PLAYER OF ALL-TIME. I can't think the way I want and feel the way I feel and I'm somewhat offended in your wording becasue it's MY PERSONAL OPNION. It may not be a fact but the way I mesuare a player is by Stanley Cups whether it's a team effort or one player doing it all. I know that one player can't win a Team a Stanley Cup just because the Wings have won the most Cups in recent history doesn't mean that I think the Wings are the BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. Motreal Canadiens have 24 Stanley Cups so IMO The Habs are THE BEST TEAM OF ALL TIME. My logic is not flawed my logic is my logic and that's just the way it is like it or not that's the way I feel and that's the way I mesaure a player is by Counting Their Cups!!

Rather than argue against your "logic", can you answer the question I asked? Do you think henri Richard is the best player of all time?

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You couldnt stop Gretzky.

Any one of our defensive forwards can shut him down all things being equal. The question is- do you have the lines to win the battle of attrition.

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You couldnt stop Gretzky.

Any one of our defensive forwards can shut him down all things being equal. The question is- do you have the lines to win the battle of attrition.

This is a fair point. Zetterberg is especially adept at shutting down Crosby. That doesn't mean that Zetterberg is better than Crosby, of course. But it certainly means that Crosby is no Gretzky, not even close.

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if you go on tsn.ca and look in Crosby's player profile, his picture screams child molestor...but he has 21 points in 13 games and is +15 so yes he's quite the little player. now if we could only wipe that smug look off his face and the dirt stache off his pictures...

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