80 replies to this topic

[MabusIncarnate]

Crosby? Man that's a name I haven't heard in a few good minutes

There should be a poll "What player gets talked about annoyingly too much in the NHL".

Yeah he's a great player, I get it. Not trying to be rude but it's like the Crosby plague lately, can't get away from hearing about this guy if you want to or not.

[Anijuice]

I still take Datsyuk one-on-one against anyone in the league, including a 100% healthy Golden Boy.

esteef

With you on this. Datsyuk is the most responsible man in the league on the ice.

[rrasco]

Datsyuk could dangle Crosby in front of Lemieux and manage to keep him away.

[FinWing]

So much for the Crosby vs. Ovechkin debate. It's not even a contest anymore.

[Frozen-Man]

Crosby is incredibly talented, no denying that. I think it comes down to how much weight you give defensive ability (something Wings fans probably over weigh because of Pavel's great skill in that area) and to me also a player's ability to longevity, both throughout a season and throughout a career. I think Crosby is hands down the most offensively talented and vastly improved his defensive skills, he just needs to be able to play more games.

I really loved him in the movie White Christmas. My family watches it every year during the holidays. It's a tradition. I will say, as much as I love the song White Christmas, Christmas in Killarney is a lot of fun.

Sorry for the -1, I meant to give you a +1 but was laughing and hit the neg on accident.

[Jericho613]

The Pens are my second favorite NHL team, but my feelings on Crosby are very mixed, I wouldn't say he's the best player in the NHL I personally wouldn't say hes the best player on his team. Is he a great player? Yes he is. My biggest problem with Crosby is they automatically made him the greatest player ever, or so it seemed after the lockout. I'm glad the kid didn't have to retire, no young athlete should have to suffer from an early career ending injury, especially one as serious as concussion. He still annoys the hell outta me.

[Frank the Tank]

He only had 4 points tonight

[MibJab]

Minus Datsyuk. I'll take Crosby over any other player in the NHL anyday. He's already got more assists than all but 3 guys on the Wings. He's only played 12 games. 4 points tonight. Alot more fun to watch than Franzen show up for maybe 20 minutes of actual game play a season and to see Zetterberg struggle to keep up, Hudler getting pushed around, and Emmerton doing whatever he does... Wings need a whole sale change. This is boring.

[GMRwings1983]

Why does Crosby have to be better defensively than Datsyuk in order to be considered the best player in the league?

So if Crosby is on pace to finish say 40 points ahead of Datsyuk if they both played full seasons, people would still say Pavel is better because he's better defensively.

I mean Gretzky and Lemieux weren't better two way players than Messier, but what idiot would say he was better than those guys?

I just don't get that argument. Sure Pavel is a better two way player than Crosby, but so are many other players in the league. Being the best two-way forward doesn't necessarily make you the best player in the league if one guy is just that much better offensively.

[Zetts]

Minus Datsyuk. I'll take Crosby over any other player in the NHL anyday. He's already got more assists than all but 3 guys on the Wings. He's only played 12 games. 4 points tonight. Alot more fun to watch than Franzen show up for maybe 20 minutes of actual game play a season and to see Zetterberg struggle to keep up, Hudler getting pushed around, and Emmerton doing whatever he does... Wings need a whole sale change. This is boring.

Yeah, it's shocking that the best player in the game is more exciting than Emmerton (and Hudler, Franzen and Zetterberg).

[toby91_ca]

He's easily the best 3rd line Centre in the league right now. Wonder how much better he'll get when his minutes increase and he gets better linemates.

[xtrememachine1]

Why does Crosby have to be better defensively than Datsyuk in order to be considered the best player in the league?

So if Crosby is on pace to finish say 40 points ahead of Datsyuk if they both played full seasons, people would still say Pavel is better because he's better defensively.

I mean Gretzky and Lemieux weren't better two way players than Messier, but what idiot would say he was better than those guys?

I just don't get that argument. Sure Pavel is a better two way player than Crosby, but so are many other players in the league. Being the best two-way forward doesn't necessarily make you the best player in the league if one guy is just that much better offensively.

Why does Datsyuk have to have more points than Crosby in order to be considered to be the best player in the league? Datsyuk gives up points to play defense. Crosby does not. This an old argument. One that used to involve Yzerman and Lemieux and Gretzky. Who's better? A player with 199 points and doesn't play defense? Or a player that gets 155 points and helps prevent the puck from going into his own net? I don't necessarily know if there's a right answer to this, it really comes down to preference. The people that think Datsyuk is better believe that if he played Crosby's kind of game, he would have more points, while if Crosby played Datsyuk's style, he wouldn't do as well as Datsyuk is now.

Personally, I think Datsyuk is better because he's more valuable when going for a championship. Defense plays a huge part in the playoffs and scoring machines typically get slowed down in the postseason.

[Doc Holliday]

Why does Datsyuk have to have more points than Crosby in order to be considered to be the best player in the league? Datsyuk gives up points to play defense. Crosby does not. This an old argument. One that used to involve Yzerman and Lemieux and Gretzky. Who's better? A player with 199 points and doesn't play defense? Or a player that gets 155 points and helps prevent the puck from going into his own net? I don't necessarily know if there's a right answer to this, it really comes down to preference. The people that think Datsyuk is better believe that if he played Crosby's kind of game, he would have more points, while if Crosby played Datsyuk's style, he wouldn't do as well as Datsyuk is now.

Personally, I think Datsyuk is better because he's more valuable when going for a championship. Defense plays a huge part in the playoffs and scoring machines typically get slowed down in the postseason.

Yzerman is not better than either Lemieux or Gretzky, so now you are just looking like a gigantic homer.

Secondly, if Crosby beat Datsyuk by 40 points during any season, there is no chance in hell that Datsyuk changing his game would lead to that many more points. Especially since he gets a good portion of his offense now from his defensive game.

The funny thing is that Crosby can play defense (in 2010 he had more shorthanded time on ice than Datsyuk *GASP*), yet people act like he is terrible in his own end.

[Frozen-Man]

Yzerman is not better than either Lemieux or Gretzky, so now you are just looking like a gigantic homer.

Secondly, if Crosby beat Datsyuk by 40 points during any season, there is no chance in hell that Datsyuk changing his game would lead to that many more points. Especially since he gets a good portion of his offense now from his defensive game.

The funny thing is that Crosby can play defense (in 2010 he had more shorthanded time on ice than Datsyuk *GASP*), yet people act like he is terrible in his own end.

I was really surprised by your shorthanded time on ice stat so I went back and checked. In 2010-2011 season Pav had 37:19 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:39 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 19:21 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:28 of shorthanded ice time per game. I decided maybe you meant the 2009-2010 season so I went and looked back there as well. In that season you are correct Pav had 59:71 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:44 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 71:54 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:53 of shorthanded ice time per game.

Mostly I was just surprised, I didn't think about Crosby being on the ice shorthanded that often, and wanted to provide the actual stats.

[Wing Across The Pond]

Crosby is a damn good player ,no doubt about it. The thing that bothers me the most about him is the media's urge to constantly shove him down my throat.... There are other great players in this league.

I know this post was from a while ago, but with the release of some post-season adverts recently there's been no Crosby/Penguin love. It's been Dats, the Sedins, Lundqvist, Rangers, Bruins. So far. So I don't think they're really forcing him down our throats as much these days. If they plaster him over the NHL homepage after a particular game, it's probably because he is the best player in the league and he's doing well after so long out.

I was really surprised by your shorthanded time on ice stat so I went back and checked. In 2010-2011 season Pav had 37:19 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:39 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 19:21 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:28 of shorthanded ice time per game. I decided maybe you meant the 2009-2010 season so I went and looked back there as well. In that season you are correct Pav had 59:71 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:44 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 71:54 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:53 of shorthanded ice time per game.

Mostly I was just surprised, I didn't think about Crosby being on the ice shorthanded that often, and wanted to provide the actual stats.

That's the thing, you rarely see Dats out there short handed these days, bit more the other night now Helm is out, but it's usually the bottom 6 guys, maybe Fil or Z. It's like we're trying to make him our premier offensive guy which has lead to some slightly increased numbers and greater publicity, but it also means the 'better 2-way player' argument is getting closer. Not saying Sid is the better defensive player, but he's improved a hell of a lot.

Interesting though how a defenceman is never mentioned in the 'best player' argument either. Saw a stat in the game against Washington I think it was, that said Lids has a +/- of 454, whilst second all time in franchise history was Fedorov with +200-odd. But alas I guess Dmen just don't really get the goals that win games.

[Echolalia]

I know this post was from a while ago, but with the release of some post-season adverts recently there's been no Crosby/Penguin love. It's been Dats, the Sedins, Lundqvist, Rangers, Bruins. So far. So I don't think they're really forcing him down our throats as much these days. If they plaster him over the NHL homepage after a particular game, it's probably because he is the best player in the league and he's doing well after so long out.


That's the thing, you rarely see Dats out there short handed these days, bit more the other night now Helm is out, but it's usually the bottom 6 guys, maybe Fil or Z. It's like we're trying to make him our premier offensive guy which has lead to some slightly increased numbers and greater publicity, but it also means the 'better 2-way player' argument is getting closer. Not saying Sid is the better defensive player, but he's improved a hell of a lot.

Interesting though how a defenceman is never mentioned in the 'best player' argument either. Saw a stat in the game against Washington I think it was, that said Lids has a +/- of 454, whilst second all time in franchise history was Fedorov with +200-odd. But alas I guess Dmen just don't really get the goals that win games.

Defense isn't flashy

[xtrememachine1]

Yzerman is not better than either Lemieux or Gretzky, so now you are just looking like a gigantic homer.

Thanks. However, you have to concede that comparing players based on points is ridiculous. Players like Yzerman and Datsyuk never get mentioned in these type of discussions because they backcheck, which is wrong. If Yzerman wasn't backchecking all the time and cherry picked at the opponents blue line, who is to say he wouldn't have as many points as Lemieux or Gretzky in a season.

The funny thing is that Crosby can play defense (in 2010 he had more shorthanded time on ice than Datsyuk *GASP*), yet people act like he is terrible in his own end.

Don't know where you came up with those numbers. I see a lot of Pens games and I saw Cooke, Staal, Adams and Rupp out there a ton, not Crosby. When he's out there, its right before the penalty expires.

[Doc Holliday]

I was really surprised by your shorthanded time on ice stat so I went back and checked. In 2010-2011 season Pav had 37:19 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:39 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 19:21 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:28 of shorthanded ice time per game. I decided maybe you meant the 2009-2010 season so I went and looked back there as well. In that season you are correct Pav had 59:71 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:44 of shorthanded ice time per game. Crosby had 71:54 of shorthanded ice time for the season and averaged 0:53 of shorthanded ice time per game.

Mostly I was just surprised, I didn't think about Crosby being on the ice shorthanded that often, and wanted to provide the actual stats.

I did mean the 2009 2010 stats and the entire premise was simply to dispel the notion that Crosby can't hold Datsyuk's jock defensively. He is a center and to be successful at the position he has to have some amount of defensive awareness and ability.

Thanks. However, you have to concede that comparing players based on points is ridiculous. Players like Yzerman and Datsyuk never get mentioned in these type of discussions because they backcheck, which is wrong. If Yzerman wasn't backchecking all the time and cherry picked at the opponents blue line, who is to say he wouldn't have as many points as Lemieux or Gretzky in a season.

He wouldn't, because even with abandoning defensive play he couldn't touch either of their single season records in points. There is a reason nobody has.

Points aren't everything, but they do mean a lot.

Don't know where you came up with those numbers. I see a lot of Pens games and I saw Cooke, Staal, Adams and Rupp out there a ton, not Crosby. When he's out there, its right before the penalty expires.

I came up with them by looking at the stats.

[xtrememachine1]

He wouldn't, because even with abandoning defensive play he couldn't touch either of their single season records in points. There is a reason nobody has.

That's simply your opinion. Logic would dictate that if a forward spent more time in the offensive zone and less time in the neutral zone or his own zone, he would see an increase in points. Someone scoring 130-150 points a year would see a pretty strong increase in offensive numbers if they played a more offensive minded game.

I came up with them by looking at the stats.

Nice snarky answer. For all the big offensive numbers Crosby puts up, he hasn't finished with more than a +20. In fact, when he won the Art Ross in '07 he finished with one of the lowest +/- totals in the history of the NHL for a recipient of that award. In '09 he had 103 points and was just a +3. Even the year he scored 109 points and led the league in goals, he finished with just a +15. Seems to me, if he's good defensively, with all the points he accumulates, shouldn't his +/- be much higher? Datsyuk was able to finish with a +41 in a year he scored 97 points. A +36 in a year when he got 87 points. Now comes the part where you say "plus minus doesn't matter", but those 20 seconds Crosby plays at the end of a penalty kill against a teams 2nd PP unit means more.

I did mean the 2009 2010 stats and the entire premise was simply to dispel the notion that Crosby can't hold Datsyuk's jock defensively.

Datsyuk has 3 Selke trophies, good for 2nd all time. Crosby hasn't even been close to a nomination.

[toby91_ca]

That's simply your opinion. Logic would dictate that if a forward spent more time in the offensive zone and less time in the neutral zone or his own zone, he would see an increase in points. Someone scoring 130-150 points a year would see a pretty strong increase in offensive numbers if they played a more offensive minded game.



Nice snarky answer. For all the big offensive numbers Crosby puts up, he hasn't finished with more than a +20. In fact, when he won the Art Ross in '07 he finished with one of the lowest +/- totals in the history of the NHL for a recipient of that award. In '09 he had 103 points and was just a +3. Even the year he scored 109 points and led the league in goals, he finished with just a +15. Seems to me, if he's good defensively, with all the points he accumulates, shouldn't his +/- be much higher? Datsyuk was able to finish with a +41 in a year he scored 97 points. A +36 in a year when he got 87 points. Now comes the part where you say "plus minus doesn't matter", but those 20 seconds Crosby plays at the end of a penalty kill against a teams 2nd PP unit means more.



Datsyuk has 3 Selke trophies, good for 2nd all time. Crosby hasn't even been close to a nomination.

Please don't use +/- as an argument, it is a flawed stat, but if you really insist, Crosby has 21pts in 12 games this year and is a +14, Datsyuk has 60pts in 61 games and is a +19......what does that tell you? It doesn't tell me anything at all really, but based on what you are saying, it would appear as though Crosby must be much better defensively, right?

Look, no one is going to argue that Crosby is better defensively than Datsyuk (at least not right now). I will argue that he is just as good if not better defensively than Datsyuk was at the same age though. None of that matters though, fact is, Datsyuk is one of the best forwards out there defensively, Crosby is not one of the best, but he is certainly responsible and continues to improve that area. So, Datsyuk gets the edge there, but the edge he has there is much smaller than the edge Crosby has offensively.

The other problem is measuring defense is very difficult. Datsyuk probably gets more credit than he should defensively for his takeaway stats. But how else can you measure defense? +/-.....yikes, I hope not. I wouldn't look at penalty killing either because Datsyuk was like the 5th option on the Wings but still one Selke. The Pens started to play Crosby there, but will likely hold him back quite a bit until he gets back into the lineup for the long term. The big issue with puting stars out on the PK is risk of injury.