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Cali-Wing-Nut

Did Holland build a BMW instead of a Chevy?

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Being a shop owner and mechanic I tend to see life through the guise of cars in very odd ways. Ive noticed that our team has been assembled as a well oil machine with each player providing a very focused action to the overall machine. Each player is a small gear in a very complex watch and if one gear fails, the machine ceases to function.

I have noticed that certain car makes are built the same way. Some companies build the Ultimate driving machine, much like the Wings. In good repair there is little that can stop such a well defined and sorted mechanism. Each piece is in place to support every other piece with little leeway for failure. German cars are built like this. They work awesome until there is a small problem. At this point things go south quickly and repairs take a long time and are typically very costly.

A Chevy on the other hand has its share of failures but you can typically drive for a while until there is a bit of time to get it fixed. When its in for repair, most of the time its not going to break the bank and even expensive repairs are fairly rare.

I tend to look at the team in a way that we have a hard to repair and very expensive team when parts need replacing. Instead of having a robust system that can interchange parts and are easy to fix or replace, we have custom pieces that take months or years to obtain. If we were in a car we would hate what we are driving.

Theres a fine line between exotic performance and heavy duty horsepower but when you compare it to hockey it becomes clear that heavy duty trumps high end precision every day of the week, especially when we are in an endurance race. Corvettes have won the 24hr of LeMans not because they are on the cutting edge of technology but because they use a well know system and hone them to compete while also being bullet proof at hour 23. I think our team needs more honed yet traditional engineering instead of a highly strung and very fragile powertrain that fails in horrific succession once a main part breaks.

I appologise for the car analogies but like I said, I see most things as a comparison to them.

So, do we need to build a more traditional engine with some hop up parts or is F1 performance the only way to a championship?

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So, do we need to build a more traditional engine with some hop up parts or is F1 performance the only way to a championship?

using car analogies: US car is usually much bigger than European car and there's by far much more space under the cap to do safe and easier handled assembly. for smaller cars, with less space under the cap, you need to compromise some serviced comfort and ease of error handling in order to have the thing perform good and fit under the space limitation. and I think it has more to do with space limitation that with certain alignment of parts that make up for the whole. it't not much different with other NHL teams.

speaking of car brands/makers - I honestly can't stand drivers of German cars. not all of them, but particulary Volkswagen and BMW drivers are pain in the * and I often wish I had a gun in my car to get rid of those cocky SOBs who thing they have the road all for themselves. can't comment about American car drivers, because we don't have many here - space is too precious (and fuel too costly), especially in Netherlands, to waste it with oversized and uneconomical tank-sized vehicles, when something like Toyota Aygo, Peugeot 206 or at most VW Golf is perfectly fine...

redwings1914 likes this

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Being as that Holland as built 4 cars that have won championships in the last 15 years, and playoff teams the last 20 years, I will be happy to back the cars he builds.

hooon, ogreslayer, Jasper84 and 1 other like this

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See, it's not about which car breaks down and how many parts it takes for the car to break down, it's about who's willing to get out and push when it breaks down and right now there aren't very many "parts" to this team that are willing to get out and push until we can get all of our parts back in place.

Jasper84, 55fan and Nev like this

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I have a feeling that Holland is going to get burned for playing by the rules -- a very sad state of affairs for the NHL.

Take this trade deadline as an example: He (IMO, correctly) assessed that there wasn't anybody out there worth the asking price. Other GMs indeed did pay these prices. Other GMs have handed out unsustainable contracts over the past 5 or so years. Already, talks of another lockout are circulating. Likely, this would include some kind of amnesty clause for big-ticket contracts, or at least offer a way for GMs to fix their mistakes. This pretty much nullifies Holland's game-plan, IE don't mortgage the future.

So, I think this is the analogy with respect to the car industry you really want to make :cool: : Other GMs are going to be bailed out one way or another by the NHL, much the same way certain automakers have, while those who worked hard to sustain a team will, in a way, have their work undone.

T-Ruff likes this

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Other GMs are going to be bailed out one way or another by the NHL, much the same way certain automakers have, while those who worked hard to sustain a team will, in a way, have their work undone.

on the other hand, if you're a player or players agent about to sign a new contract, will you rather sign for a GM who is known to respect the agreements, even for less money, or chose someone who once counted on league bailout (subsequently stripping players from their incomes) and risk part of your future salary not being paid, thereby effectively lowering the real value of the contract?

it's not really a free lunch to GMs here, as they do risk their image and future abilities to sign/trade. thankfully!

sean likes this

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I'm gonna skip the car analogies and get to my point lol

The wings are built in a way that when a top guy or 2 gets hurt they completely suck. They dont have the personel in the bottom 6 to switch up the system a bit and play a more rugged style of game necessary when youre using bottom guys to win.

Look at the pens, whenever they have top guys hurt they rally and seem to do just as good as they did before because they play a pretty rugged dump and chase style of game outside of the top few guys.

I dont think Babcock has the guys to start playing that way when you only have one good scoring line. A Gaustad or Moen in the bottom would be a good start.

People always comment when I complain about the bottom 6 saing if thats the worst thing than who cares and think I make a big deal about it, but its true. The wings have 2 good puck possession lines and than 2 lines with no identity. If we had a couple more Helm and Abdelkaders it would make the bottom 6 more effective on the forecheck/ grind it out game and when top guys go down a little tweak away from the skille puck possession game would be possible

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When you look at the bottom 6 right now what the hell is there to hang your hat on? What does Mursak and Emmerton offer at this point? I dont think either offers much. Neither play any sort of physical or hard fore checking game. Add Holmstrom and you have a really blah 4th line. I think an opportunity to add to it was lost at the deadline, but can always be remedied in the offseason. I want a 4th line to excel at something, whether its hitting or fore checking or fighting, just do something above average. I think size is really needed on the fourth line. Fourth lines aren't meant to try and skate around guys and make fancy moves. THeyre meant to throw the puck deep and use their body to get it back and wear the other teams defense down.

Edited by cnot19

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I don't think it has anything to do with how the team is built. Our roster is loaded with very capable players. The problem is they all seem to be slumping at the same time. Maybe that's chemistry based or maybe it's luck based. I don't know. But when the team WANTS to play they all play their hearts out and dominate. The problem now seems to be getting them to want to play. I think the winning culture here has instilled complacency because "Oh hey we'll try when the playoffs roll around because we always get there".

So I think the problem is more of a motivational one rather than a mechanical one. Maybe (just speculating don't get mad at me) Babcock is losing or has lost the team and can't motivate them properly anymore. Or maybe we just need one abysmal season put some fear back into the guys so they know that they can fail if they don't try constantly.

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I'm gonna skip the car analogies and get to my point lol

The wings are built in a way that when a top guy or 2 gets hurt they completely suck. They dont have the personel in the bottom 6 to switch up the system a bit and play a more rugged style of game necessary when youre using bottom guys to win.

Look at the pens, whenever they have top guys hurt they rally and seem to do just as good as they did before because they play a pretty rugged dump and chase style of game outside of the top few guys.

I dont think Babcock has the guys to start playing that way when you only have one good scoring line. A Gaustad or Moen in the bottom would be a good start.

People always comment when I complain about the bottom 6 saing if thats the worst thing than who cares and think I make a big deal about it, but its true. The wings have 2 good puck possession lines and than 2 lines with no identity. If we had a couple more Helm and Abdelkaders it would make the bottom 6 more effective on the forecheck/ grind it out game and when top guys go down a little tweak away from the skille puck possession game would be possible

I said this yesterday, but look at the seasons Clarkson and Nystrom are having. We could have had either guy easily. Obviously, Holland felt his current bottom 6 is better. Wrong choice.

Whenever we call up a guy from the minors to play in the bottom 6, it's usually a guy like Nyquist or Mursak, who are not really grinders and checkers. These players would be better suited for a more skilled place in the lineup.

And players like Cleary and Holmstrom are not guys that can contribute to the top lines anymore. So we can't just plug them in when Datsyuk or Franzen get hurt.

Then again, I thought we had some good defensive depth, but one injury to Lidstrom seems to have completely ruined our team defense. Everyone on the blueline looks like they're wearing clown shoes now.

Z Winged Dangler and Jasper84 like this

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I honestly can't stand drivers of German cars...I often wish I had a gun in my car to get rid of those cocky SOBs

Easy there turbo

Edited by AceInTheSleeve

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Being as that Holland as built 4 cars that have won championships in the last 15 years, and playoff teams the last 20 years, I will be happy to back the cars he builds.

You see, this is the problem: Too many naive fans give Holland WAY too much credit. He actually deserves very little. He's an overrated, pretty incompetent GM, if you ask me. Tell me why he deserves so much credit? Because he was able to fleece other teams in the pre-cap era, and even then his trades were hit and miss. Maybe because he inherited a Scotty Bowman coached team and promptly reaped the benefits..and glory. Ken Holland has done very little for this team, but they win so he gets a lot of the credit. The good decisions he makes are ones any competent GM would make, but the bad ones, and there are many, he gets a pass on.

The big problem with Holland, besides his insistence on turning the NHL into a no-contact sport, is that he was a goalie; he has no real understanding of what it takes to win a physical sport. After Bowman retired and he was eventually able to get his loyal lap dog(Mike Babcock) in place, he promptly started to reshape the Red Wings in his image --- soft! The only reason we saw the acquisitions of Drake and Downey in '08 was because of all the negative reaction and feedback from fans of the season before. Remember that team? Possibly the softest team I have ever seen in my life.

This team has a ton of skill, but no heart or grit. That will not get it done in the NHL. Our coach is also an overrated buffoon, but boy do fans love him. I don't understand it? It's easy to with a talented team when they are healthy, but a coaches true worth is measured in how he handles adversity. We have all seen how Mike Babcock handles adversity, haven't we?

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Now, let's just see how many parts were broken recently all at once (not one at a time), Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Howard in the top tier - that's the steering wheel, brakes, and transmission all in the shop at the same time. How many cars can still keep moving with those parts out?

Then we had Bert out in there, Cleary on a bum knee, and probably more on our 2nd tier injured. These were multiple parts going south all at the same time. Now we have Helm out ... arguably 1st tier or 1A tier out for 4-6 weeks with Howie out again.

I know what you're trying to say with the car analogy but even if we were talking something as simple as bicycles, we'd have a pretty hard time keeping this thing moving forward!

Edited by RedWingsRox

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This team needs two things: 1) more size and 2) more speed. Sure there are other needs but these two are the biggest. Holland continues to avoid addressing the needs of the team. When signing players he adds either 1) or 2) but not both. I'm sorry, but the Bertuzzi signing was TERRIBLE. He has size but no speed. He lacks the speed to play top 6 imo and lacks the grit to play bottom 6. Now we have 2 more years of him taking terrible penalties in the offensive zone. When I see Holland pass up a guy like Jeff Carter who has size, speed, right handed centre, sniper, youth (every need we require) at an all time low price - I could not believe it. The ericsson contract was another example of Holland making compromises. IF holland doesn't sign at least one of Suter or Parise in the offseason, I would be confident to say he doesn't have the stones to be a competent GM in the league anymore. He doesn't seem to identify the problems and go about solving them, he would much rather hope they solve themselves.

Nev likes this

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When you look at the bottom 6 right now what the hell is there to hang your hat on? What does Mursak and Emmerton offer at this point? I dont think either offers much. Neither play any sort of physical or hard fore checking game. Add Holmstrom and you have a really blah 4th line. I think an opportunity to add to it was lost at the deadline, but can always be remedied in the offseason. I want a 4th line to excel at something, whether its hitting or fore checking or fighting, just do something above average. I think size is really needed on the fourth line. Fourth lines aren't meant to try and skate around guys and make fancy moves. THeyre meant to throw the puck deep and use their body to get it back and wear the other teams defense down.

Personally, I'd really like to see a 4th line next year of Abelkader with Riley Sheahan and Joakim Andersson...but that's just me. I'd also like to see Homer retire and have Cleary join figure skating cause all the clips of him falling would finally be entertaining. Nyquist should stay up for sure and if the Wings sign any skilled player in the offseason that's not already in the system like Jarnkrok, i'd like to see Parise cause he would actually compliment the top 6. I don't much care at this point if Hudler re-signs. I'd like to see the following forward lines:

Parise - Datsyuk - Franzen

Filppula - Zetterberg - Nyquist

Bertuzzi - Helm - Eaves

Andersson - Sheahan - Abdelkader

Mursak

Looks a lot better than what's currently going on. Won't happen cause Cleary will be here and Huds may re-sign, but it's nice to look at and it would fit way under the cap.

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I said this yesterday, but look at the seasons Clarkson and Nystrom are having. We could have had either guy easily. Obviously, Holland felt his current bottom 6 is better. Wrong choice.

Whenever we call up a guy from the minors to play in the bottom 6, it's usually a guy like Nyquist or Mursak, who are not really grinders and checkers. These players would be better suited for a more skilled place in the lineup.

And players like Cleary and Holmstrom are not guys that can contribute to the top lines anymore. So we can't just plug them in when Datsyuk or Franzen get hurt.

Then again, I thought we had some good defensive depth, but one injury to Lidstrom seems to have completely ruined our team defense. Everyone on the blueline looks like they're wearing clown shoes now.

I've also said this countless times. Guys like Nyquist should be top 6 or call up a player type you need to plug the bottom lines. Look no further than Leino...the guy looked promising and got s*** minutes in the bottom 6 with non-offensive line mates and was a bust here and I blame Babcock 100% for misusing a really good PLAYMAKER! He goes to the Flyers and is one of the MVP's on the Flyers cup run after finishing the reg season really strong.

And yes, Wings D is terrible right now. The Wings forwards should recognize this too though and backcheck like they're getting NHL salaries, not paying to play in beer leagues.

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Personally, I'd really like to see a 4th line next year of Abelkader with Riley Sheahan and Joakim Andersson...but that's just me. I'd also like to see Homer retire and have Cleary join figure skating cause all the clips of him falling would finally be entertaining. Nyquist should stay up for sure and if the Wings sign any skilled player in the offseason that's not already in the system like Jarnkrok, i'd like to see Parise cause he would actually compliment the top 6. I don't much care at this point if Hudler re-signs. I'd like to see the following forward lines:

Parise - Datsyuk - Franzen

Filppula - Zetterberg - Nyquist

Bertuzzi - Helm - Eaves

Andersson - Sheahan - Abdelkader

Mursak

Looks a lot better than what's currently going on. Won't happen cause Cleary will be here and Huds may re-sign, but it's nice to look at and it would fit way under the cap.

I'm right with you up until sheahan on the 4th line. he hasn't even played an AHL game yet. I think abby up the middle with miller and mursak will do for next year. that line would be nice in a couple years.

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I'm gonna skip the car analogies and get to my point lol

The wings are built in a way that when a top guy or 2 gets hurt they completely suck. They dont have the personel in the bottom 6 to switch up the system a bit and play a more rugged style of game necessary when youre using bottom guys to win.

Look at the pens, whenever they have top guys hurt they rally and seem to do just as good as they did before because they play a pretty rugged dump and chase style of game outside of the top few guys.

I dont think Babcock has the guys to start playing that way when you only have one good scoring line. A Gaustad or Moen in the bottom would be a good start.

People always comment when I complain about the bottom 6 saing if thats the worst thing than who cares and think I make a big deal about it, but its true. The wings have 2 good puck possession lines and than 2 lines with no identity. If we had a couple more Helm and Abdelkaders it would make the bottom 6 more effective on the forecheck/ grind it out game and when top guys go down a little tweak away from the skille puck possession game would be possible

You see, this is the problem: Too many naive fans give Holland WAY too much credit. He actually deserves very little. He's an overrated, pretty incompetent GM, if you ask me. Tell me why he deserves so much credit? Because he was able to fleece other teams in the pre-cap era, and even then his trades were hit and miss. Maybe because he inherited a Scotty Bowman coached team and promptly reaped the benefits..and glory. Ken Holland has done very little for this team, but they win so he gets a lot of the credit. The good decisions he makes are ones any competent GM would make, but the bad ones, and there are many, he gets a pass on.

The big problem with Holland, besides his insistence on turning the NHL into a no-contact sport, is that he was a goalie; he has no real understanding of what it takes to win a physical sport. After Bowman retired and he was eventually able to get his loyal lap dog(Mike Babcock) in place, he promptly started to reshape the Red Wings in his image --- soft! The only reason we saw the acquisitions of Drake and Downey in '08 was because of all the negative reaction and feedback from fans of the season before. Remember that team? Possibly the softest team I have ever seen in my life.

This team has a ton of skill, but no heart or grit. That will not get it done in the NHL. Our coach is also an overrated buffoon, but boy do fans love him. I don't understand it? It's easy to with a talented team when they are healthy, but a coaches true worth is measured in how he handles adversity. We have all seen how Mike Babcock handles adversity, haven't we?

This team needs two things: 1) more size and 2) more speed. Sure there are other needs but these two are the biggest. Holland continues to avoid addressing the needs of the team. When signing players he adds either 1) or 2) but not both. I'm sorry, but the Bertuzzi signing was TERRIBLE. He has size but no speed. He lacks the speed to play top 6 imo and lacks the grit to play bottom 6. Now we have 2 more years of him taking terrible penalties in the offensive zone. When I see Holland pass up a guy like Jeff Carter who has size, speed, right handed centre, sniper, youth (every need we require) at an all time low price - I could not believe it. The ericsson contract was another example of Holland making compromises. IF holland doesn't sign at least one of Suter or Parise in the offseason, I would be confident to say he doesn't have the stones to be a competent GM in the league anymore. He doesn't seem to identify the problems and go about solving them, he would much rather hope they solve themselves.

We can't just go get more speed and size, Gaustad or Moen, or 3 top 3 draft picks (like the pens had). These things aren't free. He's not avoiding them, I'm certain he's aware of them, but we just don't have the resources to get them. After 10 or so years of beating the odds in a system where teams that stay at the top accumulate a disparity of resources, it's hard to muster up the assets to get these things, without tanking completely (like the NHL wants us to).

Holland's view towards rugged players has always been interesting. Besides the obvious reasons for these things, I really think he has taken a less than pragmatic approach about it. I think he looks at the rules and thinks, those players shouldn't be necessary anymore. He's right, but that's not the way it happens on the ice. The enforcement hasn't caught up with the legislation yet.

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Do these types of comments feel as silly coming out as they sound to those of us reading them. Holland doesn't know how to win? Babcock is a lap dog? Geesh...lighten up already, the team has a few little problems to fix in the off season when they don't have to over spend. All their other problems are injury related. Nuff said.

55fan and Hockeymom1960 like this

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We can't just go get more speed and size, Gaustad or Moen, or 3 top 3 draft picks (like the pens had). These things aren't free. He's not avoiding them, I'm certain he's aware of them, but we just don't have the resources to get them. After 10 or so years of beating the odds in a system where teams that stay at the top accumulate a disparity of resources, it's hard to muster up the assets to get these things, without tanking completely (like the NHL wants us to).

Holland's view towards rugged players has always been interesting. Besides the obvious reasons for these things, I really think he has taken a less than pragmatic approach about it. I think he looks at the rules and thinks, those players shouldn't be necessary anymore. He's right, but that's not the way it happens on the ice. The enforcement hasn't caught up with the legislation yet.

Well, there were players to be had. Matt Martin & Arron Asham to name a couple. And there were rumor that Dave Clarkson was to be had at the right price. And I don't think it's a matter of of having an enforcer, more of it's an issue of lack of accountability or having players that can, if called upon, play that mean, dirty style of hockey that you really need to win in this league. Abdelkader can't and Bertuzzi won't. And the rest of the team is either soft or not the players you really want to play that style of hockey. Bowman's Wings this team is not.

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I'm gonna skip the car analogies and get to my point lol

The wings are built in a way that when a top guy or 2 gets hurt they completely suck. They dont have the personel in the bottom 6 to switch up the system a bit and play a more rugged style of game necessary when youre using bottom guys to win.

I think when we're all healthy, our 3rd line of Abdelkader-Helm-Miller is pretty good (and would make an even better 4th line), but I totally agree with everyone that our 4th line is completely lacking in identity and purpose. My hope is that the veterans like Homer and Cleary will turn it up in the playoffs - they've been warriors for us in the post-season, but I wonder how much their bodies have left to give.

This team needs two things: 1) more size and 2) more speed.

This, this and this again. I've said it repeatedly on here, the 2 losses to the Sharks were because they were just as talented, just as hard-working and just as good skaters, but 2-3 inches taller and 15-20lbs heavier.

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