Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Did Holland build a BMW instead of a Chevy?


  • Please log in to reply
63 replies to this topic

#21 sean

sean

    Rookie

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 171 posts

Posted 20 March 2012 - 12:43 PM

I'm gonna skip the car analogies and get to my point lol

The wings are built in a way that when a top guy or 2 gets hurt they completely suck. They dont have the personel in the bottom 6 to switch up the system a bit and play a more rugged style of game necessary when youre using bottom guys to win.

Look at the pens, whenever they have top guys hurt they rally and seem to do just as good as they did before because they play a pretty rugged dump and chase style of game outside of the top few guys.

I dont think Babcock has the guys to start playing that way when you only have one good scoring line. A Gaustad or Moen in the bottom would be a good start.

People always comment when I complain about the bottom 6 saing if thats the worst thing than who cares and think I make a big deal about it, but its true. The wings have 2 good puck possession lines and than 2 lines with no identity. If we had a couple more Helm and Abdelkaders it would make the bottom 6 more effective on the forecheck/ grind it out game and when top guys go down a little tweak away from the skille puck possession game would be possible



You see, this is the problem: Too many naive fans give Holland WAY too much credit. He actually deserves very little. He's an overrated, pretty incompetent GM, if you ask me. Tell me why he deserves so much credit? Because he was able to fleece other teams in the pre-cap era, and even then his trades were hit and miss. Maybe because he inherited a Scotty Bowman coached team and promptly reaped the benefits..and glory. Ken Holland has done very little for this team, but they win so he gets a lot of the credit. The good decisions he makes are ones any competent GM would make, but the bad ones, and there are many, he gets a pass on.


The big problem with Holland, besides his insistence on turning the NHL into a no-contact sport, is that he was a goalie; he has no real understanding of what it takes to win a physical sport. After Bowman retired and he was eventually able to get his loyal lap dog(Mike Babcock) in place, he promptly started to reshape the Red Wings in his image --- soft! The only reason we saw the acquisitions of Drake and Downey in '08 was because of all the negative reaction and feedback from fans of the season before. Remember that team? Possibly the softest team I have ever seen in my life.

This team has a ton of skill, but no heart or grit. That will not get it done in the NHL. Our coach is also an overrated buffoon, but boy do fans love him. I don't understand it? It's easy to with a talented team when they are healthy, but a coaches true worth is measured in how he handles adversity. We have all seen how Mike Babcock handles adversity, haven't we?



This team needs two things: 1) more size and 2) more speed. Sure there are other needs but these two are the biggest. Holland continues to avoid addressing the needs of the team. When signing players he adds either 1) or 2) but not both. I'm sorry, but the Bertuzzi signing was TERRIBLE. He has size but no speed. He lacks the speed to play top 6 imo and lacks the grit to play bottom 6. Now we have 2 more years of him taking terrible penalties in the offensive zone. When I see Holland pass up a guy like Jeff Carter who has size, speed, right handed centre, sniper, youth (every need we require) at an all time low price - I could not believe it. The ericsson contract was another example of Holland making compromises. IF holland doesn't sign at least one of Suter or Parise in the offseason, I would be confident to say he doesn't have the stones to be a competent GM in the league anymore. He doesn't seem to identify the problems and go about solving them, he would much rather hope they solve themselves.


We can't just go get more speed and size, Gaustad or Moen, or 3 top 3 draft picks (like the pens had). These things aren't free. He's not avoiding them, I'm certain he's aware of them, but we just don't have the resources to get them. After 10 or so years of beating the odds in a system where teams that stay at the top accumulate a disparity of resources, it's hard to muster up the assets to get these things, without tanking completely (like the NHL wants us to).

Holland's view towards rugged players has always been interesting. Besides the obvious reasons for these things, I really think he has taken a less than pragmatic approach about it. I think he looks at the rules and thinks, those players shouldn't be necessary anymore. He's right, but that's not the way it happens on the ice. The enforcement hasn't caught up with the legislation yet.
what

#22 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,572 posts
  • Location:Mt. Pleasant, MI

Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:13 PM

Do these types of comments feel as silly coming out as they sound to those of us reading them. Holland doesn't know how to win? Babcock is a lap dog? Geesh...lighten up already, the team has a few little problems to fix in the off season when they don't have to over spend. All their other problems are injury related. Nuff said.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#23 Hairy Lime

Hairy Lime

    4th Line Grinder

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 276 posts

Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:20 PM

We can't just go get more speed and size, Gaustad or Moen, or 3 top 3 draft picks (like the pens had). These things aren't free. He's not avoiding them, I'm certain he's aware of them, but we just don't have the resources to get them. After 10 or so years of beating the odds in a system where teams that stay at the top accumulate a disparity of resources, it's hard to muster up the assets to get these things, without tanking completely (like the NHL wants us to).

Holland's view towards rugged players has always been interesting. Besides the obvious reasons for these things, I really think he has taken a less than pragmatic approach about it. I think he looks at the rules and thinks, those players shouldn't be necessary anymore. He's right, but that's not the way it happens on the ice. The enforcement hasn't caught up with the legislation yet.


Well, there were players to be had. Matt Martin & Arron Asham to name a couple. And there were rumor that Dave Clarkson was to be had at the right price. And I don't think it's a matter of of having an enforcer, more of it's an issue of lack of accountability or having players that can, if called upon, play that mean, dirty style of hockey that you really need to win in this league. Abdelkader can't and Bertuzzi won't. And the rest of the team is either soft or not the players you really want to play that style of hockey. Bowman's Wings this team is not.

#24 Nev

Nev

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,041 posts
  • Location:Lincolnshire, England

Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

I'm gonna skip the car analogies and get to my point lol

The wings are built in a way that when a top guy or 2 gets hurt they completely suck. They dont have the personel in the bottom 6 to switch up the system a bit and play a more rugged style of game necessary when youre using bottom guys to win.


I think when we're all healthy, our 3rd line of Abdelkader-Helm-Miller is pretty good (and would make an even better 4th line), but I totally agree with everyone that our 4th line is completely lacking in identity and purpose. My hope is that the veterans like Homer and Cleary will turn it up in the playoffs - they've been warriors for us in the post-season, but I wonder how much their bodies have left to give.


This team needs two things: 1) more size and 2) more speed.


This, this and this again. I've said it repeatedly on here, the 2 losses to the Sharks were because they were just as talented, just as hard-working and just as good skaters, but 2-3 inches taller and 15-20lbs heavier.
"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#25 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,572 posts
  • Location:Mt. Pleasant, MI

Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:27 PM

Pretty sure it was Couture, Pavelski, and Setoguchi that killed the Wings in the playoffs the last two years. How big are they again?

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#26 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,572 posts
  • Location:Mt. Pleasant, MI

Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:41 PM

Combined weight of current Wings roster excluding goalies, 4778 lbs. Combined weight of current Sharks roster excluding goalies, 4780 lbs.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#27 Wing Across The Pond

Wing Across The Pond

    Gabriel's Wings

  • Silver Booster
  • 744 posts
  • Location:LONDON, UK

Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:20 PM

I think when we're all healthy, our 3rd line of Abdelkader-Helm-Miller is pretty good (and would make an even better 4th line), but I totally agree with everyone that our 4th line is completely lacking in identity and purpose. My hope is that the veterans like Homer and Cleary will turn it up in the playoffs - they've been warriors for us in the post-season, but I wonder how much their bodies have left to give.

Homer is a warrior, but his game is playing off of players like Z or Dats. He's not a 4th liner, hence the lack of identity. Cleary could be a beast down there and give his brand of gritty game on the 4th line, plus I think he'd be man enough to accept that role as well.

The analogy of the car, whilst quaint and eloquent, is misleading. It suggests that when we lose one piece the others fall apart. It's more like taking the four wheels to be Dats, Lids, Z, Howie (say for arguments sake) then when they're injured replacing them with a milk crate, a corner section of Scalextric track, an overused VHS of the 1984 Winter Olympics in Sarajevo, and a Fast Break. I know I'm being flippant, but the current situation isn't like we're a crap team who utterly, completely must have them to function whilst other teams can deal with it, it's simply that we're stacked with injuries at the moment and the players who are being asked to come in and replace them either haven't developed yet or are severely inexperienced. In short, they're just DIFFERENT pieces. Whoever it was that said teams like the Pens don't fail like this, I'd like to see them without star centre Crosby AND top scorer Malkin... AND starting goaltender Fleury for that matter........ AND a top-line defencemen like Orpik. Because that's what we've been going through. Not to mention we had players like Bert out (so say, take out Staal there), Helm now....

We're simply injured. It's a bit of a kick in the face to say that without a few certain parts this team isn't worth jack.

I miss Aaron Downey :(

Edited by Wing Across The Pond, 20 March 2012 - 03:21 PM.

Posted Image



Check out my blog -The Heid-Out- a cynical mans take on everyday life


#28 Drake_Marcus

Drake_Marcus

    Pariah

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,335 posts
  • Location:Fredericton, New Brunswick, Canada

Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:35 PM

If we're sticking with car analogies then losing Nick Lidstrom is like the drive shaft breaking.
Dedicated to lulz once lost:
Posted Image
Thanks TeeMan!

"We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas
of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage" --H.P. Lovecraft

#29 dirtydangles

dirtydangles

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,692 posts

Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:35 PM

Combined weight of current Wings roster excluding goalies, 4778 lbs. Combined weight of current Sharks roster excluding goalies, 4780 lbs.

do this stat for last year's teams. also take an average-not sure if same number of players.

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#30 CrimsonFlame

CrimsonFlame

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 862 posts
  • Location:Troy, Michigan

Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:57 PM

You guys know that people have been saying "THE WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" and "THE WINGS NEED TO GET FASTER" for decades right? Yes it would be a great think if we could just add size and speed to our team. But EVERYTHING HAS A DRAWBACK. When you add bigger players, they tend to not skate or shoot as well. Why? Because That's just the way nature is. If you had a big fast and super scoring palyer they would hands down dominate the league year in and year out. The same goes with every aspect of the game. Good in one area, lacking in the other. Or you get the rare jack of all trades. But you will never find the ace of all trades because it doesn't exist.


That said, it's more important to find a team who can play off each other's strengths, what ever they be, and mitigate their weaknesses, whatever they may be. Synergy.

#31 newfy

newfy

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,114 posts

Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:44 PM

You guys know that people have been saying "THE WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" and "THE WINGS NEED TO GET FASTER" for decades right? Yes it would be a great think if we could just add size and speed to our team. But EVERYTHING HAS A DRAWBACK. When you add bigger players, they tend to not skate or shoot as well. Why? Because That's just the way nature is. If you had a big fast and super scoring palyer they would hands down dominate the league year in and year out. The same goes with every aspect of the game. Good in one area, lacking in the other. Or you get the rare jack of all trades. But you will never find the ace of all trades because it doesn't exist.


That said, it's more important to find a team who can play off each other's strengths, what ever they be, and mitigate their weaknesses, whatever they may be. Synergy.

There are big guys available that could play in place of Emmerton, Mursak, Homer (hate to say that), Miller etc.

When the wings have been at their biggest and most physical teams is when theyve been most successful.

RIP BOB PROBERT #24


#32 Detroit # 1 Fan

Detroit # 1 Fan

    Truculence.

  • HoF Booster
  • 19,026 posts
  • Location:St John's

Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:47 PM

I had too


Posted Image


:lol: atta boy. The Leafs are built like Ricky's car :hehe:

#NOMOREKINDL


#33 CrimsonFlame

CrimsonFlame

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 862 posts
  • Location:Troy, Michigan

Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:35 PM

There are big guys available that could play in place of Emmerton, Mursak, Homer (hate to say that), Miller etc.

When the wings have been at their biggest and most physical teams is when theyve been most successful.


Like in 2008? We could go back in a time machine and see the same "WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" claims a few weeks before they won the cup.

Well I agree Mursak and Emmerton aren't ready yet, and Holmstrom needs to retire, just getting some big guys isn't going to do anything. They need to mesh with the team and we aren't built to be a big throw your muscle around team. So I would rather see them getting replaced by some more well rounded scorers and shooters. But the last thing I want is one dimensional players just because they are big.

#34 SouthernWingsFan

SouthernWingsFan

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 24,609 posts
  • Location:Mandeville, Louisiana (Greater New Orleans area)

Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:38 PM

If you look at two seasons ago where the Wings had to claw and scrap to make the playoffs until they were finally comfortably in the last week or two, it could be argued that throughout the season that roster had an even more absurd amount of injuries. They still made the playoffs and gave a solid effort.

I'm hoping that this season will be different when/if they eventually get healthy again like 2010 and can go deeper in the playoffs.

My point being, like in 2010, I think for the most part they are doing the best they can with what they have at present time. Like everybody else I'm frustrated watching it as well, but I just don't think you can realistically plan or predict a ridiculous number of injuries nearly happening all at once and expect a majority of minor leaguers at present time that are still developing to completely fill the void.

To go to the car anaolgy, if something breaks down and everything else works, you can probably fix it in a decent amount of time. If multiple things break down or you get in a bad car accident where you have to fix parts and repair dents and re-paint doors all at once, it's probably going to take longer regardless of what happened.

Same with this team. And that's not a knock on this team specifically, it's just hard for any roster to play with so many injuries at once. To compare/contrast, while I barely follow the NBA before the playoffs, this year the local team down here, New Orleans Hornets have been decimated with injuries just about all year. Probably was realistic they'd be a .500/slightly above .500 team if fully healthy, but right now they have the worst record in the Western Conference, 2nd worst in NBA. Injuries playing a major factor because of it.

The Wings just need to do the best they can with what they got. No trades or bigger people would've likely prevented these injuries, playing harder or not being soft like people have been throwing around lately (which I can agree with to a degree) wouldn't have prevented these injuries, probably nothing would have. Just hope like hell they can get bodies back fast and resume playing like they were in mid-season.

#35 beachwing

beachwing

    Reader

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,253 posts
  • Location:Destin

Posted 20 March 2012 - 07:47 PM

You guys know that people have been saying "THE WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" and "THE WINGS NEED TO GET FASTER" for decades right? Yes it would be a great think if we could just add size and speed to our team. But EVERYTHING HAS A DRAWBACK. When you add bigger players, they tend to not skate or shoot as well. Why? Because That's just the way nature is. If you had a big fast and super scoring palyer they would hands down dominate the league year in and year out. The same goes with every aspect of the game. Good in one area, lacking in the other. Or you get the rare jack of all trades. But you will never find the ace of all trades because it doesn't exist.


That said, it's more important to find a team who can play off each other's strengths, what ever they be, and mitigate their weaknesses, whatever they may be. Synergy.



#36 Cali-Wing-Nut

Cali-Wing-Nut

    Guppie Hunter

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 614 posts
  • Location:Sacramento

Posted 20 March 2012 - 08:52 PM

For those thinking that my analagy may not be on track and said that any car with no wheels wont move is missing the point.

Any time you get a flat you put on a spare. Some cars give you a full size that lets you motor on down the road just like before no ifs ands or buts. Other cars like my hi performance Euro car may only have a can of fix a flat. Sometimes all you did is pick up a nail and that will fix it fine, what do you do when you have a blow out? Instead of just grabbing a spare you are stuck, need a tow and have to wait for that super expensive sticky hi po tire gets in to the shop.

So instead of planning for a foreseeable problem a decision was made to chance it in order to make the car lighter not having that extra weight along. Our top lines are similar to this. Lose one guy and you grab the tire goo. Lose 2 and its tow truck time for the team.

I didnt mean anything regarding the economic side of it with bail outs and such. I could have made the same distinction between a Ford and a Ferrari and my point would still be made.

When you have Nicky, D, Howie and Z in good working order there is precision and power that is rivaled by no one. Lose one and the team misfires lose 2 and you cant even keep moving down the road.

Now I wont argue that our team has been assembled with skill and detail but when rubber hits the road you gotta be able to get from point A to point B on your own. I just feel that there is enough room for improvement that the team needs some more durable and interchangable parts. You lose a guy and he is easily replaced by someone else, cheaply and quickly. Losing a one off guy like Nicky is the lynch pin of our team. Although durable in his tenure, without him the team is completely incapable of winning games in a consistent manner. As it stands we have no way of replacing him once hes gone. If the thing wont run without it and a replacement isnt readily available you are stuck with a brick that isnt going to do much.

The chemistry of the team is going to need to be completely changed in order to deal with him gone. A defensive structure that relies on multiple lesser players as opposed to a single aberration of talent like Nicky. In that way even with 2 guys missing the slack is picked up by similar type players. Why pick one guy that does 80% of the work and the other 5 do the other 20 when you can have 3 guys that do 70 percent with the other 3 taking up the balance? It seems to make more sense like that. Granted, nobody is complaining that we have Nicky now, its the withdrawals when he isnt here that is the real problem. I seriously think that surrounding Nick with warm bodies was more the goal than supporting him with above average yet not full blown superstars.

The other issues I see with our team structure is that injury begets injury. One guy goes down and now other key players have to work harder to take up the slack. Its not the grunts its Pav and Howie ect. The added wear and tear doesnt leave them durable for very long. Soon enough you have them injured from too many minutes or killing them selves doing two guys jobs. Our injury situation is part bad luck and part the issue above. I believe that Jimmy and Joey are both injured for this reason.

I am frustrated at the outlook right now but I dont think its going to improve with player turnover this Summer.
I'M WRECKING SHOP!!!

#37 Nev

Nev

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,041 posts
  • Location:Lincolnshire, England

Posted 21 March 2012 - 04:21 AM

Combined weight of current Wings roster excluding goalies, 4778 lbs. Combined weight of current Sharks roster excluding goalies, 4780 lbs.



Yeah, thank goodness for our big players - Franzen (6-2, 220) and Bertuzzi (6-3, 235) racing in on the forecheck, wearing the opposition down with their hits, battling in front of the net.....and Ericsson (6-5, 220) winning all those battles in the corner, knocking opponents on their asses around our net.... Posted Image

Meanwhile:

Datsyuk (5-11, 195)
Zetterberg (5-11, 195)
Emmerton (6-0, 190)
Fillpulla (6-0, 193)
Helm (5-11, 195)
Nyquist (5-11, 170!)
Hudler (5-9, 178. Yeah right)
Miller (6-2, 178. Beanpole!)
Mursak (5-11, 184)
Eaves (6-0, 191)
Kronwall (6-0, 190)
White (5-10, 191) / Rafalski (5-10, 178. Another yeah right)

Now obviously size isn't everything, and some of our smaller players are also some of our more physical (and best), but across the roster, we're just too damn small, and our 3 biggest players don't play like big men and use their size. I'm happier that our D is bigger with the addition of Quincey and Smith, but the latter is seemingly giving away a goal a game atm with his rookie mistakes, something that cannot be tolerated in the playoffs.

Edited by Nev, 21 March 2012 - 04:24 AM.

"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#38 newfy

newfy

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,114 posts

Posted 21 March 2012 - 01:31 PM

Like in 2008? We could go back in a time machine and see the same "WINGS NEED TO GET BIGGER" claims a few weeks before they won the cup.

Well I agree Mursak and Emmerton aren't ready yet, and Holmstrom needs to retire, just getting some big guys isn't going to do anything. They need to mesh with the team and we aren't built to be a big throw your muscle around team. So I would rather see them getting replaced by some more well rounded scorers and shooters. But the last thing I want is one dimensional players just because they are big.

In 2008 some people were probably still saying that, but that team was still by far the most physical the wings had dressed since the lockout. They also had a bottom 6 with identity. The third line was Draper, Cleary and Drake that season and they knew what they were out there to do. Drake had a big hit a game, all 3 forechecked like crazy, Draper was great defensively and Cleary was a very well rounded player back than.

Bringing up the 2008 team compared to now is a joke

RIP BOB PROBERT #24


#39 GMRwings1983

GMRwings1983

    The Killer is Me

  • Silver Booster
  • 20,662 posts
  • Location:Jerkwater, USA

Posted 21 March 2012 - 02:47 PM

In 2008 some people were probably still saying that, but that team was still by far the most physical the wings had dressed since the lockout. They also had a bottom 6 with identity. The third line was Draper, Cleary and Drake that season and they knew what they were out there to do. Drake had a big hit a game, all 3 forechecked like crazy, Draper was great defensively and Cleary was a very well rounded player back than.

Bringing up the 2008 team compared to now is a joke


Especially since the 2008 team won a President's trophy, while this team is sinking to a 6 seed.
According to my profile, my reputation is excellent. LOL.

#40 kipwinger

kipwinger

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,572 posts
  • Location:Mt. Pleasant, MI

Posted 21 March 2012 - 03:03 PM

here's the last thing I"m going to say about the size thing. Since the lockout, Boston and Anaheim are the only big team that have won a cup. Neither us, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or Carolina were all that big. Big teams CAN win, obviously. And so CAN smaller teams. There's no recipe for building a cup winning team, and being big certainly isn't a prerequisite.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users