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Did Holland build a BMW instead of a Chevy?


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#41 newfy

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 03:32 PM

here's the last thing I"m going to say about the size thing. Since the lockout, Boston and Anaheim are the only big team that have won a cup. Neither us, Chicago, Pittsburgh, or Carolina were all that big. Big teams CAN win, obviously. And so CAN smaller teams. There's no recipe for building a cup winning team, and being big certainly isn't a prerequisite.

I know you can win but its no coincidence Detroits biggest, toughest team won. Chicago had some big boys like Ladd and Buff. Pitty has always beena very physical team and that team was no different. Boston and Anaheim were as big as they come sure, but all those other teams you mentioned were definitely above average physically and size wise

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#42 kipwinger

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Posted 21 March 2012 - 05:22 PM

I know you can win but its no coincidence Detroits biggest, toughest team won. Chicago had some big boys like Ladd and Buff. Pitty has always beena very physical team and that team was no different. Boston and Anaheim were as big as they come sure, but all those other teams you mentioned were definitely above average physically and size wise


Of course they had SOME big boys, every team does. Our team does this year as well. Ladd and Buff are big, so are E, Franzen, Bert, Abby, Kindl, Stuart. Again, Boston and Anaheim were the only teams to win a cup since the lockout who would be considered "big" by NHL standards. The rest were average at most. And I'm not really trying to harp on you here, but anytime someone suggests that you need to be big to win the cup, I point out that Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and Carolina did it without being big and they respond with "well all those teams were physical". That's not the same thing as big. Of course you can't win a grueling Stanley Cup playoff schedule without being physically tough, nobody would argue that, but I'll argue to the moon that you have to be big. Aside from a handful of players, four of the six winners since the lockout were not big.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#43 Dimaline312000

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:16 AM

I said this back in July after seeing who all we signed and the changes to the roster we made. I don't expect THIS team to do very much. Yes I'm still a HUGE DIE HARD Wings fan and will always stand behind them but I don't see this team winning a Cup this season. I hope I'm wrong and I still have High Hopes but not High Expectations for this season's team. I look forward to next season. I'd say I look forward to the off-season but essentially I don't becasue I HATE Summer and the Off-Season. I'm very interested in seeing what they Wings do this off-season but this team just doesn't seem to have it this season. Hopefully next season!!

#44 F.Michael

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:18 AM

As I've said in another thread some time ago - over the past several years (since the lock out in particular) there were some really good players available at the draft that Holland passed on, and now these guys are contributing regulars where as the guys Holland/Nill picked only a few will ever be regulars in Detroit.

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#45 Dimaline312000

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:32 AM

As I've said in another thread some time ago - over the past several years (since the lock out in particular) there were some really good players available at the draft that Holland passed on, and now these guys are contributing regulars where as the guys Holland/Nill picked only a few will ever be regulars in Detroit.



I agree with your statement F.Michael!!!!

So the real question we sould be asking is..... Is Holland The Problem and is he getting to old to do this job??

#46 kipwinger

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 08:46 AM

I agree with your statement F.Michael!!!!

So the real question we sould be asking is..... Is Holland The Problem and is he getting to old to do this job??


No, and no. ALL GM's have passed over players who have turned out to be really good in the NHL. Doesn't mean they are incompetent or should be fired. It means their job is really hard and nobody knows the future.

Edited by kipwinger, 22 March 2012 - 08:50 AM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#47 newfy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:54 AM

As I've said in another thread some time ago - over the past several years (since the lock out in particular) there were some really good players available at the draft that Holland passed on, and now these guys are contributing regulars where as the guys Holland/Nill picked only a few will ever be regulars in Detroit.

Missing O'Reilly and Clifford for Ferraro hurts the most. Clifford is exactly what every person on this board wants, a tough guy that can play the game well

RIP BOB PROBERT #24


#48 F.Michael

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:59 AM

Missing O'Reilly and Clifford for Ferraro hurts the most. Clifford is exactly what every person on this board wants, a tough guy that can play the game well

Lucic, and Marchand are 2 more right off the top of my head.

I'm not placing blame upon Holland/Nill for not drafting these guys, but to say that we have the "best GM" along with the "best scouts" is a little off the mark in my opinion.

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#49 F.Michael

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 11:40 AM

I agree with your statement F.Michael!!!!

So the real question we sould be asking is..... Is Holland The Problem and is he getting to old to do this job??

I'm of the opinion that Holland/Nill, and a large portion of the Red Wings scouting staff "look" for certain qualities when watching 16 thru 18 year olds, and in my opinion - skill/skating is what they're looking for.

If the player can throw a big hit, or a punch - that's a bonus...Now on the other hand when ya look at a team like the Boston Bruins - they obviously look at things differently - sort of how the Red Wings drafted, and built the team from the late 80's into the mid 90's.

Those who know me well enough here know what type of team I'd like to see iced every night, and that's a team built along the lines of our 97/98 Cup winning teams, or today's Boston Bruins.

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#50 kipwinger

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:06 PM

haha, it just occurred to me that a BMW is a high performance machine and the company is pretty much the industry standard, while Chevy is bankrupt and government owned. I think Chevy is certainly more applicable to Phoenix...and pretty soon New Jersey.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#51 newfy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:13 PM

Lucic, and Marchand are 2 more right off the top of my head.

I'm not placing blame upon Holland/Nill for not drafting these guys, but to say that we have the "best GM" along with the "best scouts" is a little off the mark in my opinion.

The North American scouts take a lot of crap, they do alright though. Reaching for Smith seems to have paid off big time for example. Howard as well.

But man they should add another scout or 2 or something for North America. If they could pan out a few North Americans more their scouting would be ridiculous. Clifford or Lucic would have this team right where I want it. Abdelkader would be just a complimentary tough guy, and with Smith and one of those guys the wings would have no problem when games got tough and they could still play their style of game.

RIP BOB PROBERT #24


#52 F.Michael

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:32 PM

The North American scouts take a lot of crap, they do alright though. Reaching for Smith seems to have paid off big time for example. Howard as well.

But man they should add another scout or 2 or something for North America. If they could pan out a few North Americans more their scouting would be ridiculous. Clifford or Lucic would have this team right where I want it. Abdelkader would be just a complimentary tough guy, and with Smith and one of those guys the wings would have no problem when games got tough and they could still play their style of game.

That's just it - emphasis appears to have been placed on scouting European youths instead of N.American...Then again if this team continues with the "puck possession" style of play - both Holland/Nill may feel the team's future would be better off with talent that's capable of that style of play.

Persoanlly I find the "puck possession" easy to counter when the playoffs arrive, and teams need to resort to a "dump & chase" style in order to generate any consistent scoring opportunites, or to create turnovers in the oppositions end...It's why I see the Bruins repeating.

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#53 kipwinger

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:34 PM

The North American scouts take a lot of crap, they do alright though. Reaching for Smith seems to have paid off big time for example. Howard as well.

But man they should add another scout or 2 or something for North America. If they could pan out a few North Americans more their scouting would be ridiculous. Clifford or Lucic would have this team right where I want it. Abdelkader would be just a complimentary tough guy, and with Smith and one of those guys the wings would have no problem when games got tough and they could still play their style of game.


Milan Lucic is af****** beast, but I recall reading somewhere that his AHL numbers weren't as good as Emmerton's. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it's true he probably developed much better than anyone ever anticipated, and therefore it would have been hard to predict and scout for. If this is completely false, then I apologize for referencing false info.

Edited by kipwinger, 22 March 2012 - 12:41 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#54 F.Michael

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:44 PM

Milan Lucic is af****** beast, but I recall reading somewhere that his AHL numbers weren't as good as Emmerton's. I don't know if that's true or not, but if it's true I probably developed much better than anyone ever expected, and therefore it would have been hard to predict and scout for. If this is completely false, then I apologize for referencing false info.

Emmerton was said to have had a higher skill level, and garnered more points throughout their respective Major Junior careers...That said - I can see why Holland/Nill preferred Emmerton; he had all the makings of a guy capable of the Red Wings style of play...With Lucic ya got a big kid with decent overall skills, and a penchant for fighting; he could have improved his skills as he got older (in this case he did), or there's always the possibility his skating/skills don't improve, and he would more or less be a 4th line guy - if not a career AHL'er...Boston being Boston - Chiarelli, and his scouts have shown a preference for taking kids with that physical edge.

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#55 kipwinger

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 12:48 PM

Emmerton was said to have had a higher skill level, and garnered more points throughout their respective Major Junior careers...That said - I can see why Holland/Nill preferred Emmerton; he had all the makings of a guy capable of the Red Wings style of play...With Lucic ya got a big kid with decent overall skills, and a penchant for fighting; he could have improved his skills as he got older (in this case he did), or there's always the possibility his skating/skills don't improve, and he would more or less be a 4th line guy - if not a career AHL'er...Boston being Boston - Chiarelli, and his scouts have shown a preference for taking kids with that physical edge.


Yeah, I mean I obviously didn't follow either of them as they came up. But from what I understood, drafting Lucic was by no means a no brainer or anything like that.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#56 F.Michael

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:03 PM

Yeah, I mean I obviously didn't follow either of them as they came up. But from what I understood, drafting Lucic was by no means a no brainer or anything like that.

I honestly believe drafting for the NHL has gotta be the toughest of the 4 major pro leagues; for every Crosby there's a Daigle.

Lucic was by no means a "sure bet" back on draft day as to what we see of him today...Just that ya gotta ask yourself if you're a GM/scout - what would you prefer once you head into the 2nd round of drafting, and beyond - some kid playing in the WHL/OHL with above average ability, has fire in his belly, and doesn't shy away from the rough stuff, or a kid from the NCAA, or Europe with alot of skill, but his size/lack of physical play may some day be a factor?

With Holland/Nill we know they'll draft skill/skating every day of the week over anything else...So far they've been pretty successful doing just that - even though it may not always please "knuckle draggers" such as myself.

Edited by F.Michael, 22 March 2012 - 01:05 PM.


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#57 CrimsonFlame

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:12 PM

At the end of the day, drafting and scouting is just gambling. In the end you need a lot of luck to go along with your little bit of scouting skill. I can't get too hard on Holland and the Scouts considering the job they do, on the draft at least, is mostly luck based.

#58 newfy

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 01:22 PM

Yeah, I mean I obviously didn't follow either of them as they came up. But from what I understood, drafting Lucic was by no means a no brainer or anything like that.

No youre right it definitely wasnt, but theyve missed a few guys in those late first and early seconds that have turned out to be players. With the wings always picking there you would think they would get used to scouting and make some good picks in that spot.

Smith is really their only good pick, they still raft well in that area but not like they should after having drafted there for 15 years. Lucic was definitely not a no brainer but if the wings scouting was better they could have seen what Boston did. I mean, Lucic made the NHL at like 19 his game must've been pretty damn solid to begin with

RIP BOB PROBERT #24


#59 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 10:34 PM

No youre right it definitely wasnt, but theyve missed a few guys in those late first and early seconds that have turned out to be players. With the wings always picking there you would think they would get used to scouting and make some good picks in that spot.

Smith is really their only good pick, they still raft well in that area but not like they should after having drafted there for 15 years. Lucic was definitely not a no brainer but if the wings scouting was better they could have seen what Boston did. I mean, Lucic made the NHL at like 19 his game must've been pretty damn solid to begin with


Lucic was a beast with the Vancouver Giants, I was really surprised he didn't go in the 1st round that year. Hindsight is 20/20, but it's tough to see we traded down for Emmerton and could've gotten Lucic or Clutterbuck. We've stolen enough guys to not harp on it, but damn mann, that's exactly what this team could use now :hehe:

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#60 Nevermind

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:10 AM

Hindsight of better/comparable players for each draft pick (I may have missed a few)

...yeah, I'm bored


2004

97. Johan Franzen
127. Ryan Callahan (as much as I like the guy, you can't argue Franzen's playoff numbers...we should have had both :) )

128. Evan McGrath
134. Kris Versteeg
150. Mikhail Grabovski

Nothing too bad for the rest of the draft.


2005

19. Jakub Kindl
21. Tuukka Rask
24. TJ Oshie
33. James Neal
35. Marc-Edouard Vlasic
41. Ondrej Pavelec

42. Justin Abdelkader

44. Paul Stastny (this one hurts)
51. Mason Raymond
62. Kristopher Letang (this too...)
72. Jonathan Quick
79. Cody Franson

80. Alex Rappold
85. Ben Bishop
87. Marc-Andre Gragnani
96. Chris Butler
101. Jared Boll

103. Mattias Ritola

105. Keith Yandle
108. Niklas Hjalmarsson

132. Darren Helm (perfect pick!)

137. Johan Ryno

142. Nathan Gerbe (I thought we were the ones to take chances on small players)

175. Juho Mielonen

190. Matt D'Agostini

214. Bretton Stamler

222. Kyle Cumiskey
230. Patric Hornqvist (last pick...Detroit style)


2006

41. Cory Emmerton
44. Nikolai Kulemin
46. Jhonas Enroth

47. Shawn Matthias
50. Milan Lucic (maybe we'd trade him for Bertuzzi anyways)

62. Dick Axelsson

63. Jamie McBain
69. Steve Mason
71. Brad Marchand
72. Cal Clutterbuck

92. Daniel Larsson
99. James Reimer
112. Matt Beleskey
161. Viktor Stalberg

182. Jan Mursak
189. Derek Dorsett
196. Benn Ferriero

212. Logan Pyett
(third-to-last pick)


2007

27. Brendan Smith
43. P.K. Subban (I prefer Smith though)

88. Joakim Andersson
97. Linus Omark
116. Keith Aulie
129. Jamie Benn

148. Randy Cameron
168. Carl Hagelin

178. Zach Torquato
194. Carl Gunnarsson


2008

30. Thomas McCollum
31. Jacob Markstrom (ouch...one pick later)
38. Roman Josi
45. Zac Dalpe
51. Derek Stepan
60. Jimmy Hayes

91. Max Nicastro
93. Braden Holtby

121. Gustav Nyquist (looks like he has the best potential)

The picks from now on are too hard to tell.


2009

32. Landon Ferraro
33. Ryan O'Reilly (really big loss here)
35. Kyle Clifford
46. Robin Lehner

60. Tomas Tatar (looks like a good pick)

Rest of the draft is too hard to tell. Need to wait a few more years. Same thing with 2010 and 2011 draft classes.

All in all, we've drafted pretty well since the lockout. Looking back, we've definitely passed on quite a few gritty players for skill players that never panned out though. But, you could just as easily look at it the other way for a lot of teams; they've passed on skilled players for gritty players that never make it to the show.

It's all a crapshoot. But, I like our stable with Nyquist, Tatar, Smith, Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, etc.

Edited by Nevermind, 23 March 2012 - 12:20 AM.






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