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SouthernWingsFan

Playoff seeding & Divison winners

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EDIT: Much appreciated if our fearless leaders could modify the thread title as necessary, subject title making fail on my part. Meant for it to read..."Playoff seeding & Divison winners - Completely change, slightly modify, or do nothing?"

This season and the current standings show that playoff seedings and the like could or should be modified, given how both 3rd place teams will pretty much have less points than the 4th/5th/6th seeded teams in the conference.

So, what would you change about this? Would you change anything at all?

Personally, I think there should be some type of award for winning your division as there is at present. Nothing wrong with that concept to me.

If you keep going this route however, somehow a concept of just two divisions in a conference perhaps, or keep the existing alignments, reward your division winners like usual these days, and re-seed the teams after the first round. Because more than likely if you do a re-seeding concept this year, 3rd place team would likely start the second round on the road, assuming those seeds win their first round series obviously.

Edited by SouthernWingsFan

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Remove the automatic seeding of division winners. Period. Stupid rule.

You can have your division winner banner all you want, but being the best team in the worst division shouldn't automatically give you home ice over a better team, no matter what the logic is.

Motown4013, T-Ruff, Rick D and 7 others like this

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Yeah get rid of division winners 1-2-3. This year it's going to be really bad. Pittsburgh and Philly will have the #2 and #3 records in the East but play each other 4 vs 5. It's also possible that New Jersey finishes higher than Boston landing in #6 despite having the 4th best record in the conference. Madness!

Rick D likes this

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Having the division winners automatically be the top seed is fine. It ensures good representation and puts emphasis on winning the division. Otherwise there is really no point to win the division. Just get into the top eight. Also it probably has helped us a lot more than it has hurt us up to this point.

T.Low likes this

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Having the division winners automatically be the top seed is fine. It ensures good representation and puts emphasis on winning the division. Otherwise there is really no point to win the division. Just get into the top eight. Also it probably has helped us a lot more than it has hurt us up to this point.

Why does a division winner "earn" anything? The division is a completely arbitrary creation for the purposes of scheduling. There is no point winning the division. But teams will play harder to win because their ranking will actually matter. Division titles should come as a side note to having a great season and finishing high up in the standings. They're only a goal for teams who will never win the conference, the presidents trophy or the Cup.

Division seeding is a joke that screws up the playoffs every year, though it hasn't been this bad in a few seasons. Get rid of it. It's also grotesquely unfair.

Rick D likes this

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Why does a division winner "earn" anything? The division is a completely arbitrary creation for the purposes of scheduling. There is no point winning the division. But teams will play harder to win because their ranking will actually matter. Division titles should come as a side note to having a great season and finishing high up in the standings. They're only a goal for teams who will never win the conference, the presidents trophy or the Cup.

Division seeding is a joke that screws up the playoffs every year, though it hasn't been this bad in a few seasons. Get rid of it. It's also grotesquely unfair.

There is a point to winning the division because it means you automatically get a top seed.... That's the point. If they got rid of that than there's really no point for divisions. Just get rid of them and have two fifteen team conferences. The whole reason we have divisions is because it adds meaning to more games since more than just the top two teams and the 8th/9th teams are fighting for anything of significance. It also adds meaning to games earlier in the season since division games are crucial if you want to clinch your division.

Right now people are just mad at it because it's hurting us. But it has helped us a lot in the past and I'm sure people had no problem with it then.

T.Low likes this

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What if Detroit plays Dallas at some point later in the playoffs (not the first round), who will have home ice in that series? I believe it would be Dallas, but I'm not sure. If that's so, it would be ridiculous indeed.

But this isn't just a hockey problem. In the NFL, you often have 8-8 teams winning a division and getting a home game over a team with 3 or 4 more wins. Likewise, some 10-6 teams winds up missing out on the playoffs altogether.

Going back to the NHL, you sometimes have another issue, where the 8 seed in one Conference has a lot fewer points than the 9-11 seeds in the other Conference, who end up missing the playoffs altogether. That also seems unfair.

Rick D likes this

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Remove the automatic seeding of division winners. Period. Stupid rule.

You can have your division winner banner all you want, but being the best team in the worst division shouldn't automatically give you home ice over a better team, no matter what the logic is.

Everyone should agree with this.

I will say this... they should still make the playoffs for winning the division. I don't think this has ever happened... but in theory it could. If the weakest division had the top team not make the playoffs on pts, but make it on winning the division... I wouldn't mind. Just have them seeded 8.

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Everyone should agree with this.

I will say this... they should still make the playoffs for winning the division. I don't think this has ever happened... but in theory it could. If the weakest division had the top team not make the playoffs on pts, but make it on winning the division... I wouldn't mind. Just have them seeded 8.

And then the team who should have been seeded 8th and is now ninth will be pissed off. That only translocates the problem. And they lose a lot more by missing the playoffs completely rather than another team just losing a home advantage. At least they still get to play.

The bottom line is this, people want what ever system helps their team win. If we were in Dallas's place we would all be defending it as a great idea.

In all reality it's fine the way it is. People just feel the need to fight for every little advantage they can, reasonable or not.

T.Low likes this

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It's true that it's probably helped the wings in the past but has it ever been the difference between 3rd and 9th for the wings? I'm not sure if it has but that's the ridiculous part of if.

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Change it.

Scrap the automatic seeds for the division winners. Top eight point totals in each conference makes the playoffs. If you don't like it, work on improving your team.

What I'd like to see in the playoffs is the top teams being able to pick their opponent. Let's say the Wings win the West and they like a certain match-up. They'd be able to pick that opponent no matter where that team is placed in the top eight. So you could see a No 1 seed play a No 2 seed in the opening round.

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Change it.

I've long thought that the #4 seed(in the current system) should get whatever spot they finish but still assuring a division winner of 1st round home ice.

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Definitely change it. Seeding by division is ridiculous. Just looking at the pacific division the past few games, a team goes from being in 9th place out of the playoffs to 3rd place with one game. Not fair and a dumb rule. They need to just seed by points total.

Change it.

Scrap the automatic seeds for the division winners. Top eight point totals in each conference makes the playoffs. If you don't like it, work on improving your team.

What I'd like to see in the playoffs is the top teams being able to pick their opponent. Let's say the Wings win the West and they like a certain match-up. They'd be able to pick that opponent no matter where that team is placed in the top eight. So you could see a No 1 seed play a No 2 seed in the opening round.

This is a really neat idea, but I kind of would be weary because it's like picking your poison! lol

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Some already benefit from weak division, and why should they benefit even more. Pens and Flyers playing in the first round is kind of silly for example.

Rick D likes this

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Remove the automatic seeding of division winners. Period. Stupid rule.

You can have your division winner banner all you want, but being the best team in the worst division shouldn't automatically give you home ice over a better team, no matter what the logic is.

This right here boys & girls...

I find it rather silly to give a "division leader" preferential treatment even though their point total at the end of the season is less than a conference rival (see current Pacific Division leader as a prime example).

I'm of the opinion it should be 1 thru 8 in each conference regardless of who the division champs are.

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Honestly I don't really have a problem with the current system, but wouldn't be against a change. It's a shame to think Pittsburgh or Philly are going to be out 1st round, just like Nashville or Detroit (if things stay as they are). Those are 4 excellent teams and 3 huge NHL markets, that all should reach the 2nd round.

2000 we had it happen to us as well, and it was worse that this year. 1999-2000 we were the 2nd best team in the entire NHL but was a 4th seed because St. Louis won the Central. Colorado, a division winner and 3rd seed, was given home ice in the 2nd round against us, despite us having 12 more points.

James Duthie was interviewed on TSN radio last week and said what they should do is do away with the automatic 1-2-3 seeds for division winners, and if you win your division, you're guaranteed a playoff spot, but 1-8 would be based on points... With the new CBA coming up, I wouldn't be surprised if this automatic 1-2-3 division winner seeds is talked about.

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The NBA has the much better system: Division leaders are only guaranteed top 4 and not top 3. A 4th seed that has a worse record than a 5th seed will not get home advantage, instead the team with the better record gets the advantage. The NBA actually went to the current NHL system back in '06ish, and the result was that the 4th seeded Dallas Mavericks (eventually going to the NBA Finals) had the 2nd best league record at 60-22, but lost a tiebreaker against San Antonio (the same record), who got the 1st seed while 2nd and 3rd seeded teams had much worse records than Dallas. NBA immediately realized the system was flawed so they changed it.

It's sad how a league as bad as the NBA is, has a better league system than the NHL.

Right now we should be fighting Vancouver for the 2nd seed, while LA is the 4th seed without home ice due to record.

Edited by irishock

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The NBA has the much better system: Division leaders are only guaranteed top 4 and not top 3. A 4th seed that has a worse record than a 5th seed will not get home advantage, instead the team with the better record gets the advantage. The NBA actually went to the current NHL system back in '06ish, and the result was that the 4th seeded Dallas Mavericks (eventually going to the NBA Finals) had the 2nd best league record at 60-22, but lost a tiebreaker against San Antonio (the same record), who got the 1st seed while 2nd and 3rd seeded teams had much worse records than Dallas. NBA immediately realized the system was flawed so they changed it.

It's sad how a league as bad as the NBA is, has a better league system than the NHL.

Right now we should be fighting Vancouver for the 2nd seed, while LA is the 4th seed without home ice due to record.

And the NBA knows how to market it's game better. They don't like it when their bottom teams knock out the top seeds, because they know it effects TV rating and the style of play in the later rounds, unlike the NHL who seem to love upsets.

Sorry I'm still pissed about 2004 and 2006 :lol:. People seemed to love the fact the Flames and Oilers took out the Wings early, but then they were wondering why the games were so slow, boring, and TV ratings were down in the later rounds.

Edit: Forgot to add the 2003 Ducks.

Edited by Barrie

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As of today, both #3 seeds by being division leader should really be 7th in pt standings. That's a huge discrepancy. Change please.

If system was point based, we'd be 3rd.

Edited by RedWingsRox

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The main problem with divisional winners getting 1-2-3 isn't so much that it's unfair, but that it undermines the whole ranking system. The whole idea of seeding teams 1-8 is so that the "best" team in the conference (seed 1) has the advantage of playing the "worst" team (seed 8). That's their reward for being ranked 1st. Or the 8th seed's hurdle for finishing in the lowest position. By putting "worse" teams at 4, it ruins this system by saying "hey, you weren't great but you still get a lower ranked opponent"

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I could see making sure that each division champ has a spot in the top 8, but beyond that, go on points.

I'm not sure (cuz I suck at math) if it would be possible for a division to not have at least one team in the top 8.

I'm sure some numbersgeek will let me know.

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I'd remove the top 3 status of division winners. I don't believe that the lack of incentive to win the division would have much of an effect on play. Teams are going to play hard regardless when the standings are as tight as they have been.

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Silly rule, which I have never understood.

A possible "bonus" for winning your division could be home-ice advantage in later rounds with a non-division opponent who was also NOT division winner, regardless of seeding.

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To go further on my original response since it seemed kinda unfinished to me...

Again I have zero issues with giving a division winner some type of reward/high seed.

Somebody mentioned the NBA playoff formatting which I wasn't fully aware of. I know they just have two divisions per conference and that's pretty much what I would favor, even if the NHL didn't go into more detail as the NBA did.

As has been mentioned it doesn't make much sense for Philly-Pitt to likely be squaring off in the first round, same with Detroit-Colorado back in 2000 early in the playoff season, etc.

Divsion winners per conference would get the top 2 seeds (and I am going on the basis that the NHL adopts two divisions per conference, but that in itself is not the point and another discussion for another time), that would likely be enough to reduce so much discrepency between a divsion leader and lower seeds in most scenarios. Any re-seeding for the postseason probably wouldn't be necessary then.

Pretty much we are all in agreement that it is flawed and could use some tweaking up.

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Right now we should be fighting Vancouver for the 2nd seed, while LA is the 4th seed without home ice due to record.

I'm not familiar with the NBA system, but whats the point of calling them a 4th seed if they're not getting home advantage anyway? might as well call them the 5th seed unless I'm missing something

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