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#21 rrasco

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:40 AM

To the referees' defense I think you sometimes miss things just because they are so unbelievable and unexpected. I mean even if you are watching at the direction. It happened very quickly and you definitely don't expect a player to do something as stupid as Clowe did. I wonder if he could be fined for that?


or suspended

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#22 evilzyme

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:42 AM

I can't believe so many people have their panties in a bunch, it was a stupid play, he got away with it, that makes it funny. Qui being so damn cranky.


I wouldn't find it funny that my team just got screwed out of a potential 5 on 3 in the ending moments of a game that going to choose who gets 3rd seed. I don't see anything funny about this, quite frankly I see it an insult to the game. Who does that at a level he's playing at?

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#23 jollymania

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:02 PM

I wouldn't find it funny that my team just got screwed out of a potential 5 on 3 in the ending moments of a game that going to choose who gets 3rd seed. I don't see anything funny about this, quite frankly I see it an insult to the game. Who does that at a level he's playing at?

But look at it objectively, there wasn't even a guarantee of anything on the play, it was illegal, he got away with it, plays like that happen ALL THE TIME, the only difference was this one was blatant and stupid. It is humorous, you are overreacting big time.
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#24 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:03 PM

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#25 evilzyme

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:08 PM

But look at it objectively, there wasn't even a guarantee of anything on the play, it was illegal, he got away with it, plays like that happen ALL THE TIME, the only difference was this one was blatant and stupid. It is humorous, you are overreacting big time.


I'm overreacting because I think it's mind boggling that 2 refs and 2 linesmen failed to notice a player on the bench playing the puck to prevent an odd man rush. I'm done arguing with you, obviously you aren't comprehending why I was upset in the first place. The addition of this home-and-home deciding the 3rd seed just added the amplitude of the mistake. I highly doubt you would be "laughing and finding it humorous" if it involved the Wings, I almost can promise you that.

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#26 Nic

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:09 PM

I can't believe so many people have their panties in a bunch, it was a stupid play, he got away with it, that makes it funny. Qui being so damn cranky.


But look at it objectively, there wasn't even a guarantee of anything on the play, it was illegal, he got away with it, plays like that happen ALL THE TIME, the only difference was this one was blatant and stupid. It is humorous, you are overreacting big time.


I agree with evilzyme. And to be perfectly honest crap like this brings up sour memories of BS reffing that effects playoff games. Remember the non-call when Franzen took a high stick to the face from Setoguchi? What about the "Franzen's lightsaber stick slicing off Thornton's legs" while the Sharks were getting away with diving that whole series? Thornton got a penalty for roughing before he dove, but at the time the dive was so extreme it just highlighted everyone's frustrations on our side with non-calls on the Sharks for blatant diving not only last year but the year before.


There's never a guarantee of anything in the future when you're in the present, a few years ago we were seconds from winning the cup and the pens got a goal that pushed us into what? triple over time? Point is, what Clowe did was BS, should have been called, and what that WOULD have guaranteed was a 5 on 3 situation for the Kings that could have been a game and seed changer. Overreacting? Hardly.

What if we get into the first round and something like this happens to us and decides a game...or a series? I really don't see how it's funny in the context real NHL hockey, either? In a comedic movie, sure.

I'll edit here to say obviously things will get missed. Humans make mistakes and don't see everything, but at the same time there needs to be a system in place to deal with outrageous things like these. Everything is so in the moment in hockey games, but these outrageous examples and other things like them should not go completely unpunished.

Edited by Nic, 06 April 2012 - 12:34 PM.


#27 joesuffP

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:11 PM

You don't think this is suspendable? It's blatantly cheating

#28 Nightfall

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:27 PM

Ahh, the "you've never done it so you dont' know like I do" explanation. :rolleyes:

You're making this sound like it was a run of the mill hook that didn't get called. Of course they're going to miss some things like that. Hockey is a fast moving game. Missing something behind the play is a lot more understandable. Missing something this obvious when it happens to the puck carrier is baffling.


Its an explanation that is 100% accurate. Experience counts for a lot. There are many people who change their tune quickly when they put on the stripes and ref a ice hockey game. You can discount it all you want, but like it or not, its an accurate statement.

Also, I am not over trivializing it at all. In fact, in the quote you posted, I said 98 times out of 100 it would get caught. I may even go as high as 99 times out of 100, because you don't see this kind of thing except maybe once a season. I agree with you that its shocking that it was missed, but at the same time, it doesn't surprise me because the refs miss things all the time. Back in 09 when the Penguins had 6 people plus the goalie on the ice for that power play, everyone was asking, "How could they miss that?" My answer remains the same, because they are human.

Want to see better refereeing? It isn't a question of better refs, but a better system of reffing.

I'm overreacting because I think it's mind boggling that 2 refs and 2 linesmen failed to notice a player on the bench playing the puck to prevent an odd man rush. I'm done arguing with you, obviously you aren't comprehending why I was upset in the first place. The addition of this home-and-home deciding the 3rd seed just added the amplitude of the mistake. I highly doubt you would be "laughing and finding it humorous" if it involved the Wings, I almost can promise you that.

You do realize that the linesmen can't blow the whistle and call a penalty like that, correct?

http://www.nhl.com/i...ge.htm?id=26320

I'm sorry bud, but I just can't agree with you here. It was a rush through the neutral zone right infront of the benches. For all 2 refs and 2 linesmen to miss that is just beyond me. I can't even see how the linesmen who had to have been staring at the play because its about to enter HIS zone so his eyes SHOULD be on the puck and the play. For all 4 of them to simply miss something this big, is just beyond me.


I have no problem agreeing to disagree. I see your point, and while I don't disagree with it, thinking that the refs should catch everything all the time is an unrealistic expectation. No referee is going to be able to do that.
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#29 AceInTheSleeve

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:35 PM

You do understand that the refs aren't just supposed to be watching the puck or the person playing the puck. There are other things going on in the game.


I don't know how you didn't get a job as an NHL official, because you clearly have all the requirements for the position.

#30 Nightfall

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:41 PM

I agree with evilzyme. And to be perfectly honest crap like this brings up sour memories of BS reffing that effects playoff games. Remember the non-call when Franzen took a high stick to the face from Setoguchi? What about the "Franzen's lightsaber stick slicing off Thornton's legs" while the Sharks were getting away with diving that whole series? Thornton got a penalty for roughing before he dove, but at the time the dive was so extreme it just highlighted everyone's frustrations on our side with non-calls on the Sharks for blatant diving not only last year but the year before.


There's never a guarantee of anything in the future when you're in the present, a few years ago we were seconds from winning the cup and the pens got a goal that pushed us into what? triple over time? Point is, what Clowe did was BS, should have been called, and what that WOULD have guaranteed was a 5 on 3 situation for the Kings that could have been a game and seed changer. Overreacting? Hardly.

What if we get into the first round and something like this happens to us and decides a game...or a series? I really don't see how it's funny in the context real NHL hockey, either? In a comedic movie, sure, but BS reffing is a problem, has been a problem and still needs to be dealt with.

I am glad you posted this, because I feel the same way. I am not going to blame the refs because I understand what they have to go through. They really are setup for failure. If the NHL wants to improve the reffing, then they need to change the reffing system. Its readily apparent that two refs on ice level can't catch everything. The linesmen are not allowed to call as many kinds of penalties as the refs, so I am not counting them. In the meantime, we have things that are missed, diving penalties that are called, and so on that are a stain on the sport. This isn't just limited to NHL hockey either. Look at every professional sport, and you will see that they all have refs that can miss calls or make calls that are very questionable. You have goals called off for interference that isn't there. You have some legit interference calls on goalies that go by the wayside.

The only way to really make everyone happy is to fix the system. I know I keep bringing up the platform above ice level where a ref can stand and assess penalties off ice. All goalie interference calls are reviewed. All goals when scored should be reviewed, even if they are called back or allowed. The list goes on and on.

I believe the reason why sweeping changes haven't happened is because the human factor remains to be a good discussion around the water cooler. You trying to tell me that we couldn't have eliminated human reffing in most major sports by now? Baseball doesn't need an umpire back behind the plate to call balls and strikes when there are computers that could detect a ball and strike just as easily. There are many other refereeing positions that could have been eliminated with technology by now. The key here is that people, while they get upset at bad refereeing or missed calls, still haven't gotten sick enough where they won't watch the games anymore. These leagues aren't going to change unless the public demands their change.

The human factor of reffing really is large enough where this is going to come to a head and things are going to change in all major sports.

I don't know how you didn't get a job as an NHL official, because you clearly have all the requirements for the position.

If you are talking about common sense, then thank you.

Oh wait, my sarcasm meter is going off....sorry about that. :D
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#31 xtrememachine1

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:49 PM

I can't believe so many people have their panties in a bunch, it was a stupid play, he got away with it, that makes it funny. Quit being so damn cranky.


I think people are getting upset about it because the playoffs are right around the corner and a missed play like this could determine a game or a series. Its a missed stick from the bench today, a "I meant to blow the whistle before the puck went into the net" tomorrow, and a "I didn't see the black puck laying on blue ice in plain sight because the goalie was wearing black" next week. Not that its ever good to miss a call, but a big one this close to the playoffs makes people nervous.

#32 edicius

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:50 PM

There's two refs.

It happened to the guy carrying the puck. Neither ref was watching puck carrier?


And one of the refs was Stephen Walkom.

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#33 edicius

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:58 PM

You do realize that the linesmen can't blow the whistle and call a penalty like that, correct?
http://www.nhl.com/i...ge.htm?id=26320


Perhaps the linesman can't call the penalty, but he can stop play and report the infraction to the referees - courtesy of the very link you posted:



The Linesman may stop play and report what he witnessed to the Referees when:

(i) There are too many men on the ice (Rule 74)

(ii) Articles are thrown on the ice from the players' bench or penalty bench (Rule 75)




I think what Clowe did should fall under either Rule 74 or Rule 75.

Edited by edicius, 06 April 2012 - 12:58 PM.

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#34 Nic

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:03 PM

I am glad you posted this, because I feel the same way. I am not going to blame the refs because I understand what they have to go through.


I only cut it to your first sentence so these posts don't get ENORMOUS with quotes haha.

Don't get me wrong, the homer deep down inside (and the cynic that I happen to be) blames the refs for a lot of things, but it IS a system set up for failure. I think that the official on a platform is a GREAT idea. It's really showcased every time one of these non-calls happen. The announcers almost always catch these things, the in-house, tv and even radio spectators are almost always aware while the refs are oblivious.

Also interesting that you brought this up:

The key here is that people, while they get upset at bad refereeing or missed calls, still haven't gotten sick enough where they won't watch the games anymore. These leagues aren't going to change unless the public demands their change.


The state of reffing in this league (I don't follow any other sports, but here's that homer/cynic I was talking about, along with the issue at hand) has already largely turned me off to watching very much NHL hockey anymore. It's been a huge personal frustration over the last handful of years. I still follow the league very closely, but when it comes to watching games? I used to try to catch every single Red Wings game from opening night til we ended our runs in the playoffs (win or lose), as well as other teams. I'm not saying I speak for anyone other than myself, clearly I don't, but this league has become damn-near un-watchable. I'm down to around 10-15 games regular season but still watching all of our run of the playoffs, to be totally honest. I know I sound like a homer there, but the state of the league as a whole makes it very difficult for me personally to even care about any other teams as far as viewership goes.

#35 rrasco

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:23 PM

The Linesman may stop play and report what he witnessed to the Referees when:

(i) There are too many men on the ice (Rule 74)

(ii) Articles are thrown on the ice from the players' bench or penalty bench (Rule 75)


I think what Clowe did should fall under either Rule 74 or Rule 75.


I was thinking it should have been too many men.


Perhaps the linesman can't call the penalty, but he can stop play and report the infraction to the referees - courtesy of the very link you posted:


From that link, it would have fallen under this... It's towards the bottom. They have it under a different section though, one says reporting to the referee and one says stopping play. It doesn't indicate whether the linesman could have called a penalty or whether he should have just stopped play. I think we would have to dive into the details of TMM.

32.5 Stopping Play - The Linesman shall stop play:

(xi) When the puck is interfered with by an ineligible player/person Rule 5
Rule 78
Rule 74
Rule 84


http://www.nhl.com/i...ge.htm?id=26320

Edited by rrasco, 06 April 2012 - 01:28 PM.

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#36 edicius

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:31 PM

From that link, it would have fallen under this... It's towards the bottom. They have it under a different section though, one says reporting to the referee and one says stopping play. It doesn't indicate whether the linesman could have called a penalty or whether he should have just stopped play. I think we would have to dive into the details of TMM.

http://www.nhl.com/i...ge.htm?id=26320


Good catch on that. This definitely means that there were four sets of eyes out there that should have caught this and none of them did.

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#37 Nightfall

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 01:58 PM

The state of reffing in this league (I don't follow any other sports, but here's that homer/cynic I was talking about, along with the issue at hand) has already largely turned me off to watching very much NHL hockey anymore. It's been a huge personal frustration over the last handful of years. I still follow the league very closely, but when it comes to watching games? I used to try to catch every single Red Wings game from opening night til we ended our runs in the playoffs (win or lose), as well as other teams. I'm not saying I speak for anyone other than myself, clearly I don't, but this league has become damn-near un-watchable. I'm down to around 10-15 games regular season but still watching all of our run of the playoffs, to be totally honest. I know I sound like a homer there, but the state of the league as a whole makes it very difficult for me personally to even care about any other teams as far as viewership goes.

I may not a sports fanatic, but I watch a lot of NHL hockey. Heck, I am an alumni of Ferris State and I love to watch college hockey. I get worked up into the games, but when it comes to the reffing, I don't get all worked up as much as I used to. A lot of it has to do with the fact that I ref about 80-100 games a year from adult and youth travel and intermediate/advanced mens league all the way down to squirt and mites. The state of the league doesn't make it unwatchable to me.

What makes it frustrating to me are the pieces of technology that we employ in instant replay and the commentators who have access to that replay, that are outperforming the refs on the ice. Every commentator discusses missed calls in every game. The cameras catch everything that the refs miss as well. This just isn't in the NHL, but in MLB and other sports as well. The NBA had a situation where, in a 1 point game with 30 seconds to go, there was a lack of a goaltending call when there should have been one. This call was easy for me to see just by watching the TV, but with the technology they employed, it made it look even more legit. Yet, the refs didn't call it. One team lost due to that lack of a call.

When you mention that you find it un-watchable, trust me in that I feel the same ways sometimes. I see the calls more clearly from my TV set sometimes. Yet, we still use this archaic system of having eyes on the ice. It puts the human factor in the spotlight, but then the fans HATE it when something is missed that should have been called. I compare it to the old WWF days when the ref would turn his back and the "bad guy" wrestler would pick up a chair and just hammer someone in the back while the ref wasn't looking.

When you break it down though, and just realize that the refs are going to miss things, you learn to manage your frustration even more. When you ref a lot of games, you come to understand why refs miss things. Is that acceptable? No, but I point it out because every sport has this issue right now. All fans of these sports love it when their team wins and get pissed off at the refs if they lose. It could be one ref wasn't calling charging as liberally as the other. It could be because an umpire had a smaller strike zone and Verlander didn't get as many strikeouts. I could go on and on here but you understand my point.

Good catch on that. This definitely means that there were four sets of eyes out there that should have caught this and none of them did.

Very good catch, I stand corrected on that. It would appear to me that you were right. There were 4 sets of eyes that missed that. Just like there were four sets of eyes that missed the Penguins using 6 people on the power play for over a minute back in 09.


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#38 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:00 PM

I can't believe so many people have their panties in a bunch, it was a stupid play, he got away with it, that makes it funny. Qui being so damn cranky.

I'm guessing you'd feel differently if it happened to the Wings.

The Kings were fighting for a playoff spot, as were the Sharks. It was a huge game. Tied, late in the third period, the Kings on a power play.

It not only disrupted a rush into the offensive zone, it also should've put the Kings on a 5 on 3 power play. Who know what would've happened but if they score on that 5 on 3 they likely win the game outright and the Sharks aren't in the playoffs yet (at least don't think so. I can't keep track of all the possibilities based on what the other teams did).

Aside from the circumstances of the game, it's just mind boggling that the refs missed it.

A player reaching out into the field of play from the bench is a big deal. I can honestly say I've never seen anything like it in all my years of watching hockey, certainly with no penalty called. I've seen guys get involved from the bench where there's scrums there. Holding sticks or going after a player, but never seen one actually put his stick over the boards and onto the ice to disrupt a play. And I've been watching hockey for 30 years.

#39 Dabura

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:07 PM

This can't be real.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#40 sleepwalker

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 02:11 PM

A player reaching out into the field of play from the bench is a big deal. I can honestly say I've never seen anything like it in all my years of watching hockey, certainly with no penalty called.




I'm right there with you, but according to Jolly, we must just be idiots or blind or not watch as much hockey as we claim, because according to him plays exactly like that happen "all the time". In fact, they happen so often, that he made sure to put ALL THE TIME in all caps for emphasis.

Edited by sleepwalker, 06 April 2012 - 02:13 PM.






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