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What's Kenny Holland's Offseason Plan?


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#341 centcougar07

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:48 PM

Which teams, other than Detroit, can guarantee consistent success and bids to the playoffs?

Detroit is a promising destination no matter what the naysayers think.


Any team that has a good core and a good prospect pool (i.e. Florida, St. Louis, Edmonton, Minnesota, LA, etc.). I would say Detroit is more of a safe destination than a promising one. And don't be surprised if Detroit is struggling to get in the playoffs in 2-3 years. Work needs to be done on the prospect pool because right now, players looking to sign long term are not going to be best suited signing with Detroit

#342 BamaWing

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:52 PM

Someone mentioned earlier about trading Stuart's rights, OMG! I never even thought about that! I just assumed he is leaving, he is leaving. How cool would it be to trade Stuart to San Jose for Clowe? If Stuart isn't enough, we can throw in Hudler as well. Shoot, why not?

I like Stuart and want him to stay but as a GM id bait him out there if I couldn't get any heads up from him and/or his agent

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#343 Carman

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 08:59 PM

Any team that has a good core and a good prospect pool (i.e. Florida, St. Louis, Edmonton, Minnesota, LA, etc.). I would say Detroit is more of a safe destination than a promising one. And don't be surprised if Detroit is struggling to get in the playoffs in 2-3 years. Work needs to be done on the prospect pool because right now, players looking to sign long term are not going to be best suited signing with Detroit


Our prospect pool isn't bad hell I believe it's in the top half of the league, I'll definitely take our prospect pool over Minnesota's for sure. Red Wings have the most respected front office in the league and to go along with a great coach. On the ice. The track record speaks for itself. I'm not saying we will get whoever we want, but a free agent isn't going to just cross out the Red Wings.

#344 LeftWinger

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:02 PM

I like Stuart and want him to stay but as a GM id bait him out there if I couldn't get any heads up from him and/or his agent

Oh, he is going, his wife cannot come here unless her ex changes the terms of the custody. She can only live so far away from her ex because of their daughter. Stuart will be in California next season. Lets hope Holland trades his rights in order to get something for him!

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#345 WingNut 25

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:15 PM

No one will trade for Stuart's rights knowing he'll only go to the West Coast. That means very few teams will even be in the running for his services when July 1 hits. The only teams remotely likely to give up anything (likely a low draft pick) are one of the 3 CA teams that want to get the jump on the other 2.

#346 WingNut 25

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:28 PM

Yes, Morrow would fit in wonderfully on the 3rd line with Helm/Bertuzzi. He brings grit and leadership to this team, both of which Franzen has none of, and as for losing Franzen's scoring (a whole 56 points from our "sniper") I am replacing him with Parise and Semin (plus Morrow is only a season removed from his own 56 points.) So trading Franzen, Cleary and letting Holmstrom retire and Hudler walk, while bringing in Parise, Semin and Morrow, I would say that pretty much fills a ton of needs on the offensive front...So no, my "FIX" is not to just trade Franzen for Morrow (although yes, Morrow is an all around upgrade to Franzen) it's just a piece to the puzzle. If Parise and Semin are signed, then Franzen falls to 3rd line anyhow and on the 3rd line, Morrow is tons better than Franzen...

.

Morrow is not an upgrade. I'm sorry but you'll never convince me of that. Morrow will be 34 next January and scored a whoppin 26 points this season in 57 games, all while bringing in a cap hit of $4.1 million through next season. You want to bring him on board? Wait until you can sign him next offseason for a fraction of his current salary. He fits right in that 3rd line mold but for Franzen in trade? Come on. That's the dumbest trade proposed yet. Franzen is younger (though granted not by much) and had 56 points this year with a smaller cap hit (again not by much but cap space is valuable no matter how much). In today's NHL, I'll take Franzen any day.

The Wings will go all in on Parise no doubt but why go after an underachiever w/ a bad attitude in Semin? You posted at length on the need for leadership in your proposed plan and why it's wise the Wings dump Mule for Morrow yet completely do an about face to bring in Semin and his awful attitude. I'm sorry but I'll keep Mule over Semin. Your posting is the type of short sighted, ill informed fantasy GM-ing that's good for nothing more than a laugh. At least do some homework before posting.

Edited by WingNut 25, 23 April 2012 - 09:28 PM.


#347 Dabura

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 09:57 PM

Your posting is the type of short sighted, ill informed fantasy GM-ing that's good for nothing more than a laugh. At least do some homework before posting.


Dude, lighten up.

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#348 WingNut 25

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 10:30 PM

No need to. This is the "general discussion" forum is it not? So we're all having a discussion and that isn't always gonna be high fives and hugs. There's far too much laughable fantasy hockey GM talk going on. It's far more interesting to have factual discussion. Save the "Franzen for Morrow" junk for NHL 12 or fantasy hockey.

#349 LeftWinger

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:35 AM

In today's NHL, I'll take Franzen any day.


...and you will get results like the last three years every time.


I'm sorry but I'll keep Mule over Semin. Your posting is the type of short sighted, ill informed fantasy GM-ing that's good for nothing more than a laugh. At least do some homework before posting.


Me not do homework? You act like I am just throwing names out there. Semin (dont know where he gets the bad work ethic label from) even with his "bad work ethic" he is a prolific scorer and was 2nd in scoring behind Ovechkin this year and is currently 4th in playoff scoring for Washington and leads them in goals. Semin and Datsyuk are wondrous together when they play for Russia in any type of National tournament.

Homework on a player doesn't mean just hearing things like "he is lazy" from disgruntled fans or he is a "floater." It's not always about "The Best" player you can get, you have to build your team based on chemistry. Drew Miller was put on waivers when Detroit picked him up. Obviously a certain team thought he was not good enough to keep around, yet he comes to Detroit and fills a role needed and becomes a very important part of a bottom six that at one point (when healthy) was arguably the best bottom six in the NHL. Morrow would only make that bottom six better as would Bertuzzi. Adding Parise and Semin in the top six would make Datsyuk and Zetterberg look that much better and play that much better. Franzen has grown stale, and honestly, if you are talking about "lazy" and "attitude" I really do not want someone playing for MY team who says he gets so bored in the regular season that he mails it in on occasion. Then to follow it up with consecutive post seasons like this? I am spending the $100,000 more for a player that actually has heart and puts himself out there every single game 100%. Hey, if it takes less to get Morrow, then super, but Morrow is the type of third line player this team needs. If it doesn't take Franzen to get him, then I am trading Franzen for another player that will make this team better. Franzen is horrible and he proved it by his statements and his play. Hell even Boyd the void had a good season playing with Datsyuk one year...

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#350 LeftWinger

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 07:59 AM

No need to. This is the "general discussion" forum is it not? So we're all having a discussion and that isn't always gonna be high fives and hugs. There's far too much laughable fantasy hockey GM talk going on. It's far more interesting to have factual discussion. Save the "Franzen for Morrow" junk for NHL 12 or fantasy hockey.

again, this team with Morrow, Parise and Semin on it is FAR superior than having Franzen, Cleary, Hudler. You can have Franzen all you want, I cannot convince you of Morrow, but you don't have to convince me of Franzen, he proves time and time again that he is lazy and has no heart. He needs to go play in a league that has 40-50 games in the regular season, because after that point he is horrible. And his performance the last two playoffs? He isn't worth Helm's salary. And that is FACT. So you can talk down to someone else about not doing homework or not seeing the facts. Facts are this...Red Wings in its current state is a stale hockey club and Franzen is a big reason why...he just proved it....yet again. Time for change.

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#351 LeftWinger

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:07 AM

No one will trade for Stuart's rights knowing he'll only go to the West Coast. That means very few teams will even be in the running for his services when July 1 hits. The only teams remotely likely to give up anything (likely a low draft pick) are one of the 3 CA teams that want to get the jump on the other 2.

Don't let the facts get in the way...you just answered your own observation. Sure everyone in the NHL knows he is going to California, but there are three teams in California who would love his services. San Jose needs a knew identity, Anaheim is looking for a top 2 defenseman since Niedermayer retired for good. Los Angeles may be a piece or two away from making a serious run at the Cup. So even though a trade scenario would probably only involve three teams, if all three of those teams want him, then you may be able to get something of value in return. Ryan Clowe may be a stretch, but if all three teams are interested, he will get us more than a lower round draft pick. Quincey garnered a 1st round pick, Stuart is a bit more valuable than Quincey on the market...Fact.

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#352 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 08:09 AM

again, this team with Morrow, Parise and Semin on it is FAR superior than having Franzen, Cleary, Hudler. You can have Franzen all you want, I cannot convince you of Morrow, but you don't have to convince me of Franzen, he proves time and time again that he is lazy and has no heart. He needs to go play in a league that has 40-50 games in the regular season, because after that point he is horrible. And his performance the last two playoffs? He isn't worth Helm's salary. And that is FACT. So you can talk down to someone else about not doing homework or not seeing the facts. Facts are this...Red Wings in its current state is a stale hockey club and Franzen is a big reason why...he just proved it....yet again. Time for change.


I like Morrow's heart but he seems broken down and injury prone at this stage of his career. Guys, Kenny is not moving Franzen. While it is frustrating as hell to watch the Mule float around like he's a swedish ballerina, he is still our best goal scorer. We need MORE goal scoring. Not less. His Cap hit does not kill us. It's 4 mil a year. I know us Wings fans always need our couple of scapegoats to pick on but you only need to look at Kenny's past history as a GM that moving Franzen is not likely to happen. Kenny does not make many trades anymore. When he does it's usually acquiring players for draft picks like Stuart and Quincey. His last impact trade was in the summer of 2001 when he traded for Hasek and gave up Kozlov and a 1st. That was 11 years ago. So why is he now going to trade Franzen? Does anyone seeing us getting back a 30-40 goal scorer in return? I don't. For those who think Mule and Flip will get us Corey Perry, it will not happen. Perry is a Hart Trophy winner who has won a Cup and is just entering his prime years. Why would the Ducks deal him for a floating and underachieving Swede who is locked into a massive long term contract? Plus a 2nd line centre whos contract is up after next season in Flip. It makes no sense.

If Kenny can sign Parise then it takes alot of pressure off Mule. I think he will actually be a better player having some scoring help on the Wings. Parise plays with Dats and Mule plays with Z. That's a solid top 4 group of forwards. This makes it tougher for other teams to match up against. Hey I have a love-hate thing with Mule. I know how valuable he can be and I also know how lazy he can be. But for 4 mil a season, I keep him and hope I get more GOOD MULE than BAD MULE.
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#353 paulwoodsfan

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:07 AM

. . . you don't have to convince me of Franzen, he proves time and time again that he is lazy and has no heart. He needs to go play in a league that has 40-50 games in the regular season, because after that point he is horrible. And his performance the last two playoffs? He isn't worth Helm's salary. And that is FACT. So you can talk down to someone else about not doing homework or not seeing the facts. Facts are this...Red Wings in its current state is a stale hockey club and Franzen is a big reason why...he just proved it....yet again. Time for change.


And yet somehow Kenny is going to convince someone to take him -- and his eight more years, $27.5M owing -- off our hands? Get back to us when that becomes a fact.

Ryan Clowe may be a stretch, but if all three teams are interested, he will get us more than a lower round draft pick. Quincey garnered a 1st round pick, Stuart is a bit more valuable than Quincey on the market...Fact.


Uh, no. Neither guy is an all-star. One is a soon-to-be UFA aged 32, the other a signed player aged 26. The former is NOT more valuable in the trade market than the latter. There is zero chance the Wings could get a first-rounder for Stuart, and Clowe is even farther from reality.

#354 VM1138

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 09:34 AM

The Wings are still a prime destination. Early playoff exits didn't deter the likes of Brett Hull, Luc Robitaille and Dominik Hasek from coming here in 2002. And we've got a lot of money to throw around this season.
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#355 LeftWinger

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:15 AM

And yet somehow Kenny is going to convince someone to take him -- and his eight more years, $27.5M owing -- off our hands? Get back to us when that becomes a fact.



Uh, no. Neither guy is an all-star. One is a soon-to-be UFA aged 32, the other a signed player aged 26. The former is NOT more valuable in the trade market than the latter. There is zero chance the Wings could get a first-rounder for Stuart, and Clowe is even farther from reality.

I didn't say that Franzenlina would be traded for sure, the fact is, he is the poster boy of whats wrong with this team right now, and should be dealt. You are right that it would be super hard to dump his God awful contract on someone.

Also, if you don't think Stuart is more valuable than Quincey, then I cannot even begin to debate that with you. BTW, Quincey is NOT signed, he is a RFA and if he re-signs for more than $3M it will be wasted cap space. $3M for 5 years sounds about the max for him. I wasn't saying that Stuart WOULD bring back a 1st rounder, but the fact that Quincey cost one, coupled with the idea that maybe all three teams in California may want him, it should bring back more than a "lower round" draft pick. I did say Clowe was a stretch too...

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#356 mmamolo

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:22 AM

Don't let the facts get in the way...you just answered your own observation. Sure everyone in the NHL knows he is going to California, but there are three teams in California who would love his services. San Jose needs a knew identity, Anaheim is looking for a top 2 defenseman since Niedermayer retired for good. Los Angeles may be a piece or two away from making a serious run at the Cup. So even though a trade scenario would probably only involve three teams, if all three of those teams want him, then you may be able to get something of value in return. Ryan Clowe may be a stretch, but if all three teams are interested, he will get us more than a lower round draft pick. Quincey garnered a 1st round pick, Stuart is a bit more valuable than Quincey on the market...Fact.


SJ already has Boyle, Vlasic, Burns, Demers, and Murray signed for next season. They also have Braun as an RFA. In total the Sharks have $8.7M in cap space with 9 players to sign (they only have 7 forwards).

ANA already has Visnovsky, Sbisa, Lydman, Beauchemin and Fowler signed for next season.

LA already has Doughty, Scuderi, Mitchell, Greene, Voynov, Martinez and Drewskie signed for next season.



None of those teams are in a position where they would trade for the negotiating rights to Stuart. Even if the Sharks do want a new identity (on their blueline, which clearly isn't the real problem) I can't see them handcuffing themselves by trading for Stuart's rights and then either having to give away one of their current top 5 or be stuck over spending on their blueline.

Anaheim could possibly be interested in Stuart but they're already committed to 5 quality (in their mind) blueliners. If they want to supplement what they already have I don't see why they'd be giving anything up for a chance to sign Stuart. If it's clearly already known that Stuart wants back in with one of the California teams (which obviously that seems fairly apparent) I think the Ducks easily take notice of the fact that they are the only ones with cap space and roster space that makes sense.

LA has 7 d signed for next year. Stuart isn't much of, if at all, an upgrade over their current top 4 (despite what some Wings fans may feel). Stuart is probably a lateral move between the Greene's, Scuderi's and Mitchell's of that roster. Plus, the Kings were willing to lose Jack Johnson off their blueline because they like their kids (Voynov and Martinez) so much. No way the Kings sign Stuart, let alone trade anything for his negotiating rights.
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#357 LeftWinger

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:41 AM

SJ already has Boyle, Vlasic, Burns, Demers, and Murray signed for next season. They also have Braun as an RFA. In total the Sharks have $8.7M in cap space with 9 players to sign (they only have 7 forwards).

ANA already has Visnovsky, Sbisa, Lydman, Beauchemin and Fowler signed for next season.

LA already has Doughty, Scuderi, Mitchell, Greene, Voynov, Martinez and Drewskie signed for next season.



None of those teams are in a position where they would trade for the negotiating rights to Stuart. Even if the Sharks do want a new identity (on their blueline, which clearly isn't the real problem) I can't see them handcuffing themselves by trading for Stuart's rights and then either having to give away one of their current top 5 or be stuck over spending on their blueline.

Anaheim could possibly be interested in Stuart but they're already committed to 5 quality (in their mind) blueliners. If they want to supplement what they already have I don't see why they'd be giving anything up for a chance to sign Stuart. If it's clearly already known that Stuart wants back in with one of the California teams (which obviously that seems fairly apparent) I think the Ducks easily take notice of the fact that they are the only ones with cap space and roster space that makes sense.

LA has 7 d signed for next year. Stuart isn't much of, if at all, an upgrade over their current top 4 (despite what some Wings fans may feel). Stuart is probably a lateral move between the Greene's, Scuderi's and Mitchell's of that roster. Plus, the Kings were willing to lose Jack Johnson off their blueline because they like their kids (Voynov and Martinez) so much. No way the Kings sign Stuart, let alone trade anything for his negotiating rights.

I agree, and that will probably be the issue. It would be great if all three wanted or had room for him, but if Anaheim is the only one that has room or wants him, then we aren't gonna get anything and he will just leave as a UFA. The idea was IF all three teams were interested there may be a little competition for his rights, but I do see what you are pointing out and totally agree, Anaheim wont give up jack if they know LA or SJ aren't interested. Not unless it's a package blockbuster than includes some other names being exchanged along with Stuart...

...stranger things have happened and contrary to some, that is in fact a reality.

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#358 paulwoodsfan

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:50 AM

I didn't say that Franzenlina would be traded for sure, the fact is, he is the poster boy of whats wrong with this team right now, and should be dealt. You are right that it would be super hard to dump his God awful contract on someone.

Also, if you don't think Stuart is more valuable than Quincey, then I cannot even begin to debate that with you. BTW, Quincey is NOT signed, he is a RFA and if he re-signs for more than $3M it will be wasted cap space. $3M for 5 years sounds about the max for him. I wasn't saying that Stuart WOULD bring back a 1st rounder, but the fact that Quincey cost one, coupled with the idea that maybe all three teams in California may want him, it should bring back more than a "lower round" draft pick. I did say Clowe was a stretch too...



So now you're saying Franzen should be traded but likely won't be because of his contract? That's quite a bit different than "If it doesn't take Franzen to get him, then I am trading Franzen for another player that will make this team better."

As for Quincey, you originally said "Quincey garnered a 1st round pick, Stuart is a bit more valuable than Quincey on the market...Fact." So that sounds to me like you believed Stuart was worth more than the first-rounder Quincey cost.

As for the contract status, an RFA is worth more to his team than a UFA because if an RFA signs elsewhere (which won't happen in this case, IMO), you get compensation. Quincey is effectively RW property well past July 1, unless they choose to walk away from him (extremely unlikely, IMO). Stuart can be had for no comp as of July 1, and that fact alone (plus the fact that he is far from a star, and is in his 30s) makes it extremely unlikely that any of the Cali teams would give up a dime for advance neg rights.

#359 mmamolo

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 10:51 AM

I agree, and that will probably be the issue. It would be great if all three wanted or had room for him, but if Anaheim is the only one that has room or wants him, then we aren't gonna get anything and he will just leave as a UFA. The idea was IF all three teams were interested there may be a little competition for his rights, but I do see what you are pointing out and totally agree, Anaheim wont give up jack if they know LA or SJ aren't interested. Not unless it's a package blockbuster than includes some other names being exchanged along with Stuart...

...stranger things have happened and contrary to some, that is in fact a reality.

I hear what you're saying. But really there's no point in talking about 'what if all 3 teams wanted him' because that's simply not the reality. Also, adding Stuart in as part of a package doesn't really serve any purpose but to make a potential trade look more balanced/unbalanced on paper. At this stage Stuart has little to no value in a trade because of his all but stated intentions in signing on the West Coast. Also, just because it's 'a fact that stranger things have happened in reality' doesn't mean it's going to happen, it's probable that it will happen, or even that it is likely to happen. That's just fluff to say it's possible. Guess what, the Wings could sign Suter for $1M/yr, Parise for $1M/yr, while Lidstrom could return and sign a league minimum contract, and the Stars could trade Morrow to DET for the rights to Igor Grigorenko....it could happen, stranger things have happened
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#360 xtrememachine1

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Posted 24 April 2012 - 11:11 AM

Any team that has a good core and a good prospect pool (i.e. Florida, St. Louis, Edmonton, Minnesota, LA, etc.). I would say Detroit is more of a safe destination than a promising one. And don't be surprised if Detroit is struggling to get in the playoffs in 2-3 years. Work needs to be done on the prospect pool because right now, players looking to sign long term are not going to be best suited signing with Detroit


Florida has a good core? Minnesota? If I'm a highly touted free agent, with all this parity in the league now, I'm looking to join a franchise that has a long history of success and has shown they know what they're doing and can be competitive every year. We're losing some guys like Lidstrom, but we still have some good years out of Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Howard and Franzen. That's a lot more than these other teams can offer. A lot of people said what you just said in 2003, heck I think Fedorov might have been one of them, and Detroit turned it around real quick and became a championship caliber team again. That's the kind of franchise I would want to play for. Not one that makes the playoffs once every three years or collects lottery picks.

Edited by xtrememachine1, 24 April 2012 - 11:12 AM.






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