13 replies to this topic

[blueadams]

Of the remaining players...the older ones have gotten older, the younger ones have gained experience. Let's assume it cancels out and focus on the additions and subtractions since then. To my surprise, our team now is very similar to our stanley cup champion team of '08.


FORWARDS:

*Still here: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen, Filppula, Hudler, Helm, Holmstrom, Cleary

Samuelsson---Bertuzzi
Drake---Nyquist
Draper---Abdelkader
Maltby---Miller

...I think I'd take Bert over '08 Sammy. I think I'd take Miller over '08 Maltby. I think I'd take Nyquist over '08 Drake (though, that's hard to say, because they're so different). I think I'd say Abby and '08 Draper are about a push.

(remember that Kopecky missed all of the '08 playoffs)



DEFENSEMEN:

*Still here: Lidstrom, Kronwall, Stuart

Rafalski---White
Lilja---Ericsson
Lebda---Quincey

...Ian White is no '08 Rafalski, and that's big, but Ericsson and Quincey are probably both at least slight upgrades over Lilja and Lebda.



GOALIES:

Osgood---Howard
Hasek---MacDonald

...I don't think it would be a stretch to say that Jimmy has been at least as good as '08 Ozzie thus far this season (and who cares about backups).

Edited by blueadams, 09 April 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[irishock]

You never knew what would happen with Ozzy in net during '07-'09. I think Howard is a slight upgrade over Ozzy, you know Jimmy won't give up many soft goals, his GAA this year would probably be much better if the defense didn't collapse so damn much and leave breakaways/odd man rushes.

This is a better team than 2008 imo. Datsyuk now > Datsyuk then. Henrik is looking better and better, Lids is just as good on defense, Hudler and Filpulla have improved drastically...


The problem has always been health and travel, imo.

[atodaso]

[b.shanafan14]

Similar on paper maybe, but the level of execution has not been there consistently since 2009. Also, big difference in level of play from 2008 hold overs, which you touched on briefly:

+ Filppula: Upgrade, has developed into a dynamic playmaker, coupled with steady defensive play
= Datsyuk: Arguably better, but he was also healthier in 2008 and coming of 97 pts
= Zetterberg: Dip in production, due mostly to nagging injuries; competes equally hard
= Lidstrom: Older, but equally as effective defensively. Not as dominant on the PP as he was
= Kronwall: About even, more years of development have improved his offensive output.
= Stuart: About even, paired with Kronwall with some nights dominant, other nights turnover prone. Still a reliable stalwart
= Hudler: Producing more, but equally ineffective in physical playoff match-ups
? Helm: Improved but health will be a huge question mark, given a guy who relies on speed coming off of knee surgery
? Franzen: From invincible in 2008 to invisible in 2012. The biggest question mark of them all.
- Holmstrom: Big drop off; no longer Top 6 player. PP specialist on a poor PP. More penalties than goals
- Cleary: Night and day drop off due to injuries. No longer versatile scoring/checking player.

So in my mind, if we were to call every new player a wash (despite Rafalski being worlds better than White, Samuelsson being a bit better than Bertuzzi IMO, and Drake being much more useful in physical, grinding playoffs than Nyquist at this point in his career), that still sees the Wings with only one big improvement in Filppula.

Datsyuk Lidstrom and Zetterberg have all seen their share of production-diminishing injuries, as well as 4 seasons worth of extra miles, so at best I would call them even; same with the tandem of Kronwall Stuart and Hudler. Helm would be improved if it wasn't for the injury, which may see him significantly tuned down for a while.

Finally, the huge minus lie with three players who were critical to the last cup and were used to a similar purpose. Holmstrom can no longer play Top 6 and contribute like he was in 2008; nowadays he is WAY too slow, and takes too many penalties (deserved or otherwise). Due to Cleary's injury woes, he has no resemblance to the versatile forward he was in 2008. And Franzen has not played like the Mule he was in 2008 in a good while. He has the ability to execute, but its unreliable at best. Even at his best, he'll never be the player he was in 2008.

This years team is worse than 2008, and in my opinion, a good deal worse. They still have the tools on some fronts if the execution is there, but the depth is lacking and the 4 years separating the teams have put miles on the players always called upon to carry the load.

[GMRwings1983]

This thread misses the most obvious point.

Outside of Filppula, none of the players mutual to both teams are as good as they once used to be. Maybe Datsyuk, but he's been battling injuries the last few years.

Yeah, the names are the same, but that's a very misleading way to look at it.

Also, the 2008 team was very hungry. That's a very important part of their success. This team looks anything but hungry this season.

Edited by GMRwings1983, 09 April 2012 - 08:11 PM.

[blueadams]

Here's a full "better/equal/worse?" breakdown, IMO:



Better:

Datsyuk - He's gotten better with age. He's now almost unanimously regarded to as the greatest player in the game (who actually plays). That wasn't the case in '08.

Franzen - What did he do in the playoffs again last year? He loafs in the regular season. It's no secret. He's still more skilled now than he was in '08. We'll see how he does in the playoffs.

Filppula - Hands down better.

Hudler - Hands down better (so much more complete than he ever was).

Helm - Hands down better (while healthy at least?).

Kronwall - Hands down better (someone said he wasn't!? are you kidding me!? he's made major strides since '08).

Bertuzzi > Samuelsson - I think Bert's better overall, but I guess that's debatable to some.

Miller > Maltby - Maltby wasn't that good in '08. Miller is pretty good now.

Ericsson > Lilja - Close, but I'd give the edge to Ericsson.

Quincey > Lebda - Not close.



Equal:

Zetterberg - He's more or less the same player now that he was then, dissapointingly.

Holmstrom - He's still the same player too more or less. Put him in the same role and I bet you get the same production.

Stuart - He's more or less the same player as well.

Nyquist = Drake - They bring opposite things, more or less of equal value.

Abdelkader = Draper - About the same value.

Howard = Osgood - About as good as eachother.



Worse:

Cleary - Hands down worse.

Lidstrom - Still great, but you've got to be joking if you think he hasn't lost a step since 08.

White < Rafalski - Not close.

[GMRwings1983]

You're off your rocker if you think Zetterberg and Holmstrom are no worse than they were in 2008.

Datsyuk scored almost 100 points in 2008 and was a healthier player in general. Health is a big factor when comparing him then to now. Seems like something is always nagging him now. Otherwise, he would be equal in terms of talent and dominance. I don't think he's dropped in that regard.

Franzen was a monster in the 2008 playoffs. It was unreal. You think he can put up those numbers again?

Bertuzzi is not better than Samuelsson. I never thought I'd say that, but Bertuzzi is lazy too often and doesn't really score that much. Sammy played very well during our Cup run.

Also, Hasek and Osgood are a much better tandem than Howard and McDonald. Howard is a question mark because of his health, which is a big deal.

Kronwall is probably a more complete player now than 2008. I forgot that one in my OP. So we're left with Filppula, Hudler and Kronwall. Basically, all secondary scorers and not the main guys. Those aren't as important as the star player comparisons.

Also, you're still only looking at names and not hunger, work ethic and drive. This team doesn't come close to that 2008 team in any of those categories. That may be hard for you to understand since you only look at names and line combos, like it's some video game.

Oh, and there's our crappy special teams to boot.


And last but not least.......

Edited by GMRwings1983, 09 April 2012 - 09:51 PM.

[Lifelong Wings Fan]

Regardless of who is individually better/worse/equal in comparison to 2008, I think it's pretty obvious that the competition is a lot scarier. Dallas and Colorado were both only as good as their hot goalies at the time, and Pittsburgh was young and just learning about what it took. Nashville gave the Wings a good run that year until Detroit figured it out and got into playoff mode. Osgood stood on his head throughout the playoffs and not many Wings had two bad games in a row. I remember actually LIKING Lebda during that run.

I guess my point is, if we're going to compare the individual Red Wings of '08 to the Wings of today, let's also take into consideration the 4 (hopefully) teams they may have to face.

[jroc86]

The issue isnt that this Wings team is much worse than the 08' or 09' teams ... the issue is 4 years of new blood coming into the league, and guys who were post lockout newbies are marquee players now, and many guys who were superstars still are - so deeper, well rounded, more talented rosters have provided both conferences with a half dozen teams capable of winning the cup - as opposed to there only being 2-3 heavy favorites in each conference as there used to be.

[irishock]

The Wings lack good special teams (which could bite them in the ass), but we've been MUCH, MUCH better on even strength than in years past. White is not the power play force that Rafalski was, but him and Lidstrom with Howard in net is extremely difficult to score against. Goaltending consistency has drastically improved imo.

[Gutierrez]

I think people are forgetting just how good defensively the 08 team was. We weren't giving up many shots per game, and were out-shooting teams by a 2-1 margin a lot of nights. That team also didn't turn the puck nearly as much as this years squad. Also offensively there isn't as much depth compared to the 08 team, that third line of Cleary-Samuelsson-Filppula was pretty potent in 08.

[b.shanafan14]

2008 Red Wings had a injury slump as well, but were far and away the best team in the league all season heading into the playoffs. Their depth was 2nd to none and Zetterberg and Datsyuk were both coming off of career years (which they have not met/surpassed since). The 2008 Red Wings were surgical. Same players or not, the 2008 Red Wings would make the 2012 Red Wings look like the 2008 Avalanche.

[Nev]

GMR seems to be the only guy in this thread who gets it. As well as the personnel, the team as whole was so much more hungry and driven - both for the Stanley Cup and for the big payday when their contracts came up. Zetterberg, Sammy, Hudler, Franzen, Kronwall, Fipulla to name a few were all on less than they are now. They were coming off the defeat in the conference finals by Anaheim the year before and that still stung due to the way we lost (key injuries, freak bounces going their way). Our 1st line, the "big five" of Holmstrom-Zetterberg-Datsyuk Lidstrom-Rafalski was the best unit in the league, outplaying the opponents top line night after night. Our bottom 6, and especially the 4th line was wayyyyyyyyy better than our current 4th line

From the off the '08 team was a monster - 1st in points, 1st in shots, 2nd in goals scored, 1st in shots against, 1st in goals against. This years team started strong - not as good as the team in 07-08, but certainly shades of it with the strong defence and goaltending, but since the injury bug hit, they just haven't got their mojo back.

[GoWings!]

Let's also not forget Chelios and his presence in our lineup as well. Though he didn't score much in the playoffs,he did play in 14 of those playoff games. So Hasek,Osgood,Rafalski,Chelios,a hungry Drake and Helm,Maltby and Draper. Throw in a franchise record breaking scoring machine in Franzen,a seasoned veteran ready to fight like McCarty and an in his prime Zetterberg. Stuart signed and impressed immediately and even the most skilled teams in the league had a tough time entering our zone at all times. That team was pretty badass.