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The problem with our bottom six


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#1 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:12 PM

I feel a major issue with this team is the way our bottom six is put together. With the bottom six looking something along the lines of;

Miller- Helm/Abby- Cleary
Holmstom- Abby/Emmerton- Nyquist


I feel that this bottom six has absolutely no identity to it. Its just 6 guys thrown together. To me this is a huge issue for us as the NHL is so tight nowadays that a bottom six forward group can make the difference between winning and losing a series.

What are your thoughts on how we should compose our bottom six/ 3rd and 4th lines?

#2 dirtydangles

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:36 PM

seriously need Eaves. I have noticed this as the season ended.

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#3 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:42 PM

seriously need Eaves. I have noticed this as the season ended.


So true the guy brought everything to the table. Speed, skill, shot, tenacity, and most importantly HEART! The guy is a warrior and a terrific bottom six forward

#4 Nevermind

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 05:53 PM

If Cleary and Helm were healthy, I actually like the 3rd line. They were playing great mid-season, along with Miller.

It's the 4th line that's the problem. That's what has no identity with guys just thrown together.

#5 dirtydangles

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:02 PM

Just imagine a lineup with Eaves back in:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hudler-Filppula-Franzen
Cleary-Helm-Bertuzzi
Miller-Abdelkader-Eaves

That has some good balance in my eyes. Homer can still be effective on the top line if its creating space for Z and Dats. Every line has an identity.

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#6 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:04 PM

If Cleary and Helm were healthy, I actually like the 3rd line. They were playing great mid-season, along with Miller.

It's the 4th line that's the problem. That's what has no identity with guys just thrown together.


I've been thinking for a few days that a lineup like this would solveour bottom six and create more balance 1 through 12.

Zetterberg- Datsyuk- Holmstrom
Franzen- Filppula- Bertuzzi
Hudler- Helm- Nyquist
Miller- Abdelkader- Cleary/Conner/Mursak/Sheahan(unlikely)

Im not sure, I like that lineup as it adds more depth and identity to our team. If Homer can play anywhere it's with Pav and Z so I believe in that line to be a dominant 1st line. Second line has question marks because of Mule, but if he's playoff Mule then him and Fil can bring very big contributions (thinking 08). Third line to me is scary with the skill and speed and chances that will be created. Fourth line very solid and very responsible defensively with the ability to chip in offensively.

Maybe this is a bad lineup im not sure, this is just what I would do if I was Mike Babcock




Just imagine a lineup with Eaves back in:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Holmstrom
Hudler-Filppula-Franzen
Cleary-Helm-Bertuzzi
Miller-Abdelkader-Eaves

That has some good balance in my eyes. Homer can still be effective on the top line if its creating space for Z and Dats. Every line has an identity.



Awesome lineup. So much identity and purpose to that lineup! I also agree with Homer being able to be affective with the twins. I want that line together.



#7 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:13 PM

The problem is the Wings essentially have two fourth lines. IMO the third line should have physicality and scoring, while the fourth line should be quick and physical. I'd like to see:

Mule- Dats- Bert
Huds- Z- Flip
Nyquist- Abby- Cleary
Miller- Helm- Homer/Conner

Helm will need some time to get back into the game and he has (surprisingly) good chemistry with Homer.

Edited by WorkingOvertime, 10 April 2012 - 06:13 PM.


#8 ComradeWasabi

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:21 PM

Unfortunately Homer throws a pretty nasty wrench into the bottom six. He definitely doesn't fit in with the conventional third/fourth line - fast, tenacious, physical, and defensively strong. However, he has shown he can't really keep up in the top six anymore, either. I wish he could fit in better, but he simply doesn't.

Although, to be fair, Emmerton hasn't been any better.
QUOTE (thedisappearer @ December 13, 2008 - 10:13AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, we're dogpiling on the goalie sammy Hudler the defense the refs league bias against us coaching now? Ok.

Babcock is lazy and he sucks!

#9 dirtydangles

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:24 PM

Unfortunately Homer throws a pretty nasty wrench into the bottom six. He definitely doesn't fit in with the conventional third/fourth line - fast, tenacious, physical, and defensively strong. However, he has shown he can't really keep up in the top six anymore, either. I wish he could fit in better, but he simply doesn't.

Although, to be fair, Emmerton hasn't been any better.

This is EXACTLY what I just posted in another thread for the offseason plans. Its really hard to justify having Homer back for another season. He just doesn't fit anymore anywhere. I love the guy to death but making line combos that have to include him is impossible unless you throw him with Z and Dats.

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#10 Nyquistfan14

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:27 PM

This is EXACTLY what I just posted in another thread for the offseason plans. Its really hard to justify having Homer back for another season. He just doesn't fit anymore anywhere. I love the guy to death but making line combos that have to include him is impossible unless you throw him with Z and Dats.


But thats exactly what they should do. With the emergence of Fil and if Mule plays like he can we should have a productive second line and a dominant first line. This allows us to have a way better looking bottom six.




#11 sleepwalker

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 06:40 PM

seriously need Eaves. I have noticed this as the season ended.



I noticed it much sooner than that. Eaves being out has had a much bigger effect than many people realize. Its such a major bummer having him out so long. He brought much needed skills and balance to our bottom lines.

#12 GMRwings1983

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 07:06 PM

It would have looked better with Moen, Clarkson or Nystrom in it.

All guys we could have gotten easily in the offseason, and guys that would have been a pain to play against in a long playoff series.
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#13 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:07 AM

You should have at least good speed and/or size and good speed. Ideally.

Unfortunately Cleary has been way too injured to perform with good speed and play bigger than his size. That's the way I'm used to seeing him at least. When he's 90-100% healthy he's a great player to have on the bottom six. I just can't remember the last time he was at that level. Maybe last year when he was the hottest player on the team in the goal scoring department with the line of Cleary-Modano-Bertuzzi.

Holmstrom doesn't have either of those attributes these days. The only thing he has going for him is his competitiveness and willingness to really bang his body around. He just can't get there fast enough to do it.

I'd really like to see how Mursak performs in a bottom six role. He doesn't have size but he is really fast and has good skill to make things happen.

Ideally I would want a line of Abdelkader-Helm-Mursak but then you need a legitimate center for the 4th line. The prospects who are next in line for that role are Emmerton and Andersson. Emmerton really isn't anything too adequate even in regards 4th line standards and Andersson simply isn't ready. I wish the Wings would acquire one this off-season but that means they would have to forgo the loyalty that makes players love the organization and muster up the willingness to drop some players like Holmstrom, Emmerton and probably even one of Miller/Eaves. The likelihood of that to happen seems very low.

Edited by Red Wings Addict, 11 April 2012 - 10:07 AM.


#14 Doc Holliday

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:35 AM

Our bottom six isn't the major issue.

We could use a better fourth line, but we need top end talent again (Parise, Suter, etc) to continue to compete and remain a contender. Everything else is secondary.

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#15 Nev

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:12 AM

WIth Helm back, I'm happy with the 3rd line of Abdelkader-Helm-Miller. They were terrific during the regular season, providing speed, energy, hitting and goals.

That leaves you to make a 4th line out of Nyquist, Holmstrom, Cleary, Emmerton and Mursak, which however you look at it just seems like a bunch of random guys thrown together to fill out the line-up.
"If I can be totally honest, it's not a lot of guys you get impressed by. Actually, it's no one else but him. From the bench, to see what move he makes -- you're like, 'I wish I could do that.' Sometimes you sit on the bench and just think, 'wow,' and you look over to the other bench and they sit there and shake their heads, too. He has great, great skills. I'm probably not going to play with another player who has the kind of skills he has." Mikael Samuelsson on Pavel Datsyuk

#16 Crymson

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:23 AM

A bottom line of Miller - Helm - Eaves and Holmstrom/Conner/Mursak - Abdelkader - Cleary really would have been completely badass. Eaves is very underrated, and having him go down really hurt.

#17 Crymson

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:34 AM

It would have looked better with Moen, Clarkson or Nystrom in it.

All guys we could have gotten easily in the offseason, and guys that would have been a pain to play against in a long playoff series.


I'm not sure what your meaning is when you say that we could have "easily" gotten Clarkson in the offseason. The guy's current contract began before free agency commenced in 2010, and, as far as I can remember, New Jersey never placed him on the trading block. Travis Moen was likewise already under contract during the 2011 offseason, and the Habs specifically noted that he was not on the table at the deadline.

I can't help but think that you're looking at Nystrom with goggles tinted by hindsight. He scored 16 goals this season, sure; but he had totaled 25 in his roughly 250 games before that; he was coming off of a rather unpleasant incident; and he had been waived by a Wild team that couldn't exactly be called deep in any fashion. More, the Wings had a rather extensive glut in the bottom six; Holmstrom, Bertuzzi, Cleary, Hudler, Mursak, Helm, Abdelkader, Eaves, Miller and Emmerton were all candidates for those lines. Too, acquiring Nystrom would have required waiving somebody, as the roster limit had been reached.

#18 Red Wings Addict

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:51 AM

Our bottom six isn't the major issue.

We could use a better fourth line, but we need top end talent again (Parise, Suter, etc) to continue to compete and remain a contender. Everything else is secondary.


I agree. At the same time, top end talent is much more difficult to acquire because it commands large contracts with huge long-term implications, the biggest of which is a pretty high cap hit. The dmen corps needs top end talent for sure with Lidstrom's retirement looming. In regards to the forwards corps, it seems like the Wings have a lot of faith in Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen and Filppula so that they'll be Red Wings for a while. And really, that forward corps is pretty good. Of course it can be better just like anything else and if you can make it better in the long-term under all these cap restrictions than you should.

Top end talent can definitely provide a huge jolt into the Wings team and if you have an opportunity to acquire a Parise or Suter then you jump at the chance. At the same time I'm not really sure if the Wings have a 'major' issue. They're a good team that can be that much better if they make significant improvements to the quality of the team's depth. I think if the bottom six had more speed then it could really do some clutch damage that can take the pressure of the top six. For one, they could definitely get to pucks faster and increase the team's puck possession time.

If the Wings acquire top end talent, then of course they'll be a better team and fans will be excited. In this cap world, however, I would also be excited if the Wings made cap-friendly improvements elsewhere because those can be pretty significant. If Nyquist continues to defy major bumps in his development, he will add youth, talent and a cheap contract for next few years.

#19 Doc Holliday

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:02 PM

I agree. At the same time, top end talent is much more difficult to acquire because it commands large contracts with huge long-term implications, the biggest of which is a pretty high cap hit. The dmen corps needs top end talent for sure with Lidstrom's retirement looming. In regards to the forwards corps, it seems like the Wings have a lot of faith in Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Franzen and Filppula so that they'll be Red Wings for a while. And really, that forward corps is pretty good. Of course it can be better just like anything else and if you can make it better in the long-term under all these cap restrictions than you should.

Top end talent can definitely provide a huge jolt into the Wings team and if you have an opportunity to acquire a Parise or Suter then you jump at the chance. At the same time I'm not really sure if the Wings have a 'major' issue. They're a good team that can be that much better if they make significant improvements to the quality of the team's depth. I think if the bottom six had more speed then it could really do some clutch damage that can take the pressure of the top six. For one, they could definitely get to pucks faster and increase the team's puck possession time.

If the Wings acquire top end talent, then of course they'll be a better team and fans will be excited. In this cap world, however, I would also be excited if the Wings made cap-friendly improvements elsewhere because those can be pretty significant. If Nyquist continues to defy major bumps in his development, he will add youth, talent and a cheap contract for next few years.



Sometimes you gotta take a high risk to get a high reward.

It is time to stop being conservative and take a wild swing at a big name player this year. We may not get many chances to do it again.
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#20 Crymson

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 12:11 PM

Sometimes you gotta take a high risk to get a high reward.

It is time to stop being conservative and take a wild swing at a big name player this year. We may not get many chances to do it again.


"It is time" implies that there was a chance to do so during the 2011 offseason. This unfortunately wasn't the case; it was the worst UFA crop in our lifetime.





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