70 replies to this topic

[Behind Enemy Lines in CO]

I believe this all goes back to Rafalski's decision to retire. I believe it caught Red Wings management off guard, and when they stood back and looked at their situation (including guessing how many more years Lidstrom would play) and looked at the FA market last Summer, they decided to sit on their hands and bring in the kids to see what they could do. They also figured that if things were not working they had a pot of gold to throw at someone at the trade deadline.

So they make some small changes (White, Commadore) and bring in the kids. Babcock himself said in his interview a few weeks ago that he told management he was not sure they would make the playoffs. Sitting on a backlog of prospects in Grand Rapids means at some point in time you have to use them.

And guess what. The team plays fairly well, Jimmy is having a great season and the off-season gamble they took appears to be paying off.

Then, a few injuries pop up (Howard, Eaves, Datsuyk, Lidstrom) and suddenly the mask is pulled off and the remaining team is exposed for what it is. The trade deadline comes around and while management is interested in a few potential targets the asking price is too high given management's sight is now firmly focused on the upcoming Summer FA market. Management brings in Quincey for some additional blue line help/upgrade to Kindl and decides to rely on the return of injured players to make a playoff run. In management's eyes, if the healthy team can play in April/May like it did in December/January then all will be well.

However the chemistry never did return with the injured players, and the loss of Helm was the dagger in the heart.

The playoffs exposed the Red Wings for not having a solid 4th line, i.e. the Grind Line. That should be one of their top priorities in the off season; reconstruct a new Grind Line, either with in-house players or bring in some new guys.

The playoffs also exposed the Red Wings for not having a "sniper" forward and a true "power" forward.

[paulwoodsfan]

People have got to get over the idea that Franzen could be traded. Why would any team take on a contract that pays that much money and has that big a cap hit to him for eight more years, especially given his apparent loss of desire? Franzen is probably going to retire in five years, because his salary the last three years is comparatively small. But ovet the next five years he is owed almost $25M -- there is no way any team takes that on unless they can dump an equally bad longterm contract on the Wings. Could he be had for Luongo? Maybe? For DiPietro? Certainly. (Not that we'd want him.) For Schenn, or anyone on Montreal? Not a chance. Therefore I think next season he gets moved back down to a role on the third line as a checker and penalty killer, and gets asked to do what he did well for his first two seasons, before he magically blossomed into a (short-lived) power forward. That may be our best hope of getting some value for the money we'll be paying him over the next five seasons.

[The Axe]

It's too bad Ken Holland is TOO STUPID, or we'd have many more good playoff runs and few more cups to show for it.

Holmstrom = WTF? This guys is SO USELESS. Why is he around still?
Bertuzzi = WTF? This guy is Tomas Holmstrom, but .25 mph faster.
Stuart = WTF? Why does anybody care that he wants to go to the West Coast? He's horrible. Great. Go ruin San Jose or L.A.
Hudler = WTF? This guy is 5 foot 6. He belongs in the McDonald's playland. Not in the Winged Wheel.
Conklin = WTF. Enough said.
Jimmy Howard = WTF? This guy isn't a top 10 goalie. He should be the BACK-UP. Not the Starter.


Parise-Datsyuk-Jokinen
Filppula-Zetterberg-Franzen
Mursak-Helm-Nyquist
Tatar-Abdelkader-Emmerton

Eaves - Miller

Lidstrom-White
Kronwall-Smith
Ericsson-Quicey

Kindl

Nittymaki
Howard

[rick zombo]

It's too bad Ken Holland is TOO STUPID, or we'd have many more good playoff runs and few more cups to show for it.

Holmstrom = WTF? This guys is SO USELESS. Why is he around still?
Bertuzzi = WTF? This guy is Tomas Holmstrom, but .25 mph faster.
Stuart = WTF? Why does anybody care that he wants to go to the West Coast? He's horrible. Great. Go ruin San Jose or L.A.
Hudler = WTF? This guy is 5 foot 6. He belongs in the McDonald's playland. Not in the Winged Wheel.
Conklin = WTF. Enough said.
Jimmy Howard = WTF? This guy isn't a top 10 goalie. He should be the BACK-UP. Not the Starter.


Parise-Datsyuk-Jokinen
Filppula-Zetterberg-Franzen
Mursak-Helm-Nyquist
Tatar-Abdelkader-Emmerton

Eaves - Miller

Lidstrom-White
Kronwall-Smith
Ericsson-Quicey

Kindl

Nittymaki
Howard

Jokinen? And man oh man that bottom six is bad.

[matt198913]

It's too bad Ken Holland is TOO STUPID, or we'd have many more good playoff runs and few more cups to show for it.

Holmstrom = WTF? This guys is SO USELESS. Why is he around still?
Bertuzzi = WTF? This guy is Tomas Holmstrom, but .25 mph faster.
Stuart = WTF? Why does anybody care that he wants to go to the West Coast? He's horrible. Great. Go ruin San Jose or L.A.
Hudler = WTF? This guy is 5 foot 6. He belongs in the McDonald's playland. Not in the Winged Wheel.
Conklin = WTF. Enough said.
Jimmy Howard = WTF? This guy isn't a top 10 goalie. He should be the BACK-UP. Not the Starter.


Parise-Datsyuk-Jokinen
Filppula-Zetterberg-Franzen
Mursak-Helm-Nyquist
Tatar-Abdelkader-Emmerton

Eaves - Miller

Lidstrom-White
Kronwall-Smith
Ericsson-Quicey

Kindl

Nittymaki
Howard

Bahahahahahahahaha Howard is top 5. Proved it before he got hurt, hasnt been the same since.

One thing Ken Holland is great at is addressing the teams needs after a bad year. He doesn't waste the teams money on lazy free agents. No Scott Gomez's in other words. Which is why if Parise is available, he's a wing by July 2. If Suter is there he's a wing to replace Stuart. The final addition will be Shane Doan. Most likely a late signee.

[Dabura]

People have got to get over the idea that Franzen could be traded. Why would any team take on a contract that pays that much money and has that big a cap hit to him for eight more years, especially given his apparent loss of desire? Franzen is probably going to retire in five years, because his salary the last three years is comparatively small. But ovet the next five years he is owed almost $25M -- there is no way any team takes that on unless they can dump an equally bad longterm contract on the Wings.

Don't Stop Believing.

[Andy Pred 48]

we need more Russians on the team

[hardcoretom21]

Stuart proved countless times his worth, ESPECIALLY when Lids got hurt. He plays very well and it's just that most people here seem hung up on his blunders rather than what he did well on the ice.

I have to say I'm not sure about Bertuzzi.. I find it hard to believe this is the guy who played on one of the greatest lines (Naslund-Bertuzzi-Morrisson).. Yes he's older but I didn't see any spark in him this season. Huge shame

I still believe in this team, if it stays healthy. Yes the coach was right, having Eaves and Helm would have made the 3rd and 4th line a lot more formidable

[Dabura]

Stuart proved countless times his worth, ESPECIALLY when Lids got hurt. He plays very well and it's just that most people here seem hung up on his blunders rather than what he did well on the ice.

I think it's because his blunders tend to be very ugly and lead directly to goals against.

[pucktividi]

Mike's been calling Ken out the whole season,Brett Burns,Smith,toughness,depth,physical play...but some of us simply didn't read between the lines

I really hope this pretty honest press conference would stop "fire Babcock" calls

[rick zombo]

Well. I definitely see where Babcock’s coming from, and we’ll likely hear from Holland in a few days.

BUT, anyone else think that the coach gladly took this opportunity to cover his ass a bit? First.

During the regular season, he had no problem blaming himself and the coaching staff for lack of preparation when the team didn’t show up to play. Now, all of a sudden, the team he had to work with wasn’t good enough?

Babcock is usually the MFing man, and I understand his frustration, but I just thought I’d throw all of this out there for debate.

Edited by rick zombo, 21 April 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[ben_usmc]

This is something I've tried to to articulate before, all hockey fans have a massive tendancy to over-rate their own prospects. Plus it seems like all our top prospects are (yet more) undersized skill players.



Trade him for something, anything, anyone. Even if its a salary dump type trade. Right now its more important to shift his bone-idle arse out the door than it is to get "value" for him. A message needs to be sent to the entire roster that loafing will NOT be tolerated, and that is 10 times more important than whatever player or picks we get in return.

Smith 6'2
Jurco 6'2
Sheahan 6'2
Andersoon 6'2
Aubry 6'4
Nicastro 6'2
Tvrdon 6'2

All seem like very good chances of playing for the wings in the future, so they aren't that undersized. Granted we won't see any of those until Homer is pushing 60, Cleary in his 50's and Hudler in his late 40s'

Regardless though all this talk of bringing in grit, I'm telling you expect to see Sammy and probably Kopecky back in a Wings uniform. Holland doesn't have the balls to actually do something to dramatically upgrade the team

[Dabura]

Well. I definitely see where Babcock’s coming from, and we’ll likely hear from Holland in a few days.

BUT, anyone else think that the coach gladly took this opportunity to cover his ass a bit? First.

During the regular season, he had no problem blaming himself and the coaching staff for lack of preparation when the team didn’t show up to play. Now, all of a sudden, the team he had to work with wasn’t good enough?

Babcock is usually the MFing man, and I understand his frustration, but I just thought I’d throw all of this out there for debate.

I don't think he's covering his ass. If anything, I think he covered other people's asses this season, and more than a few times (see, e.g., blaming himself and the coaching staff).

Holland fielded a deficient roster. That roster, those guys, sucked in the postseason. Babs is the last one anyone should be blaming, IMO.

"Yeah but he should've adjusted lines and, and--"

Come on. The way these guys were playing....

[Carman]

I don't think he's covering his ass. If anything, I think he covered other people's asses this season, and more than a few times (see, e.g., blaming himself and the coaching staff).

Holland fielded a deficient roster. That roster, those guys, sucked in the postseason. Babs is the last one anyone should be blaming, IMO.

"Yeah but he should've adjusted lines and, and--"

Come on. The way these guys were playing....

Our coaching definitely wasn't good. It was quite obvious which team had the rookie coaches.

The blame doesn't fall on one person though, Holland should have made better decisions, Babcock needed to motivate the players better, and the players needed to play better.

[NBCnothingbutcrosby]

Just something I find funny. Everyone always gave me s*** about not wanting Cleary back or even on the team. Yet I see all the line pairings everyone has posted for next year and Cleary is off of pretty much all of them.

[ben_usmc]

Just something I find funny. Everyone always gave me s*** about not wanting Cleary back or even on the team. Yet I see all the line pairings everyone has posted for next year and Cleary is off of pretty much all of them.

Bulls***!

[NBCnothingbutcrosby]

Ok Ben, enjoy Cleary next season... I'm sure he'll miss another 20+ games as usual and end up being hurt during the playoffs as usual. He's a waste of a roster spot. We need young, fast, gritty guys. I've been saying this since the loss in 09' and finally it caught up to the wings as I knew it would. Our players are all old vets who've slowed down and won it all. They have no heart or desire, and they just don't care. Z, Pav, Kronwall, Lids, Helm, Eaves, Abdelkader, and Nyquist should be the only guys who are safe. Move Smith up, trade/ get rid of Hudler, Fil, Franzen (if possible), White, Kindl, Cleary (GO AWAY), possibly Miller. I actually had this same post about 3 weeks ago because I saw this coming.

Add: Parise, Suter and some gritty, big, bottom 6 players

[Dabura]

I just feel "he needed to motivate better" is reaching. Whereas, re: Holland, this team wasn't built for a deep run, and, re: the players themselves...well, they just sucked.

[Andy Pred 48]

Smith 6'2
Jurco 6'2
Sheahan 6'2

id have all 3 up with Nyqvist next year.

[Nev]

Smith 6'2
Jurco 6'2
Sheahan 6'2
Andersoon 6'2
Aubry 6'4
Nicastro 6'2
Tvrdon 6'2

All seem like very good chances of playing for the wings in the future, so they aren't that undersized. Granted we won't see any of those until Homer is pushing 60, Cleary in his 50's and Hudler in his late 40s'

OK, I didn't realuse Jurco was 6-2, and I wasn't including Smith and Sheahan, was thinking more along the Nyquist/Tatar/Jarnok/Pulkinnen lines

People have got to get over the idea that Franzen could be traded. Why would any team take on a contract that pays that much money and has that big a cap hit to him for eight more years, especially given his apparent loss of desire? Franzen is probably going to retire in five years, because his salary the last three years is comparatively small. But ovet the next five years he is owed almost $25M -- there is no way any team takes that on unless they can dump an equally bad longterm contract on the Wings.

There will be someone willing to take him on, someone who wants a scoring winger, or needs to get to the cap floor. If the cap goes up to ~$70m then $4m per year isn't that much, he can retire when he gets older without damaging the cap. Much as we hate him, he's not quite in the Scott Gomez untradable category.