21 replies to this topic

[BamaWing]

Holland or Yzerman?


Honest question. Who would you trust more? Who do you think would do a better job?

[Crymson]

Holland. Of course, to some people the grass is always greener on the other side. It takes a certain sort of mindlessness to always buy into that style of thought, but that failing is, sadly, common for humans.

Yzerman had a successful team last season. This season his team was well out of the playoff race by Thanksgiving. Were this to occur with the Red Wings, people would be calling for Holland's head. But because of the aforementioned style of thought, many people here believe regardless that Yzerman would be better. For that matter, they believe that replacing Holland would be guaranteed to bring about an increase in the Wings' fortunes. It doesn't make a whit of sense.

The Wings won't win the Cup every season. But Holland has produced a level of consistent success unmatched by any other GM of the past 15 years. The reason we see so much screaming about Holland when the Wings don't go deep in the playoffs is, ironically, because of that consistent success.

Edited by Crymson, 24 April 2012 - 02:00 AM.

[Cali-Wing-Nut]

Since I havent seen a trade or transaction from Holland (of real importance) in the last few years its a tough call.

Pre Cap Holland vs Stevie? Holland no doubt.

Now? Too many what ifs as to why Holland let this season go bust. Maybe he was waiting for natural attrition due to retirement and didnt want to handcuff himself with mid-length contracts for expensive yet average players.

Stevie has had two years to roll a team and managed the best Canadians in the Olympics which didnt have a cap.

The more I think about it, Holland.

I just wish I knew why he is doing certain things.

Edited by Cali-Wing-Nut, 24 April 2012 - 02:02 AM.

[Crymson]

Now? Too many what ifs as to why Holland let this season go bust. Maybe he was waiting for natural attrition due to retirement and didnt want to handcuff himself with mid-length contracts for expensive yet average players.

The dearth of good UFAs last season vastly inflated their asking prices and the contracts being offered to them. Holland did well to not join in. Some fans are unable to see beyond the now. Fortunately, the management is not. Being burdened by huge contracts for average players would be a bad thing in the long run. Likewise, paying a premium price for mediocre players at the trade deadline would have been foolish for the long term.

Edited by Crymson, 24 April 2012 - 02:57 AM.

[Sycsa]

Holland is great and when he retires, Stevie Y will be ready to take over Hockeytown.

[Finnish Wing]

Yzerman has been a GM in a totally different type of organisation. Managing the Red Wings who are annual contenders is different than managing a team trying to make the playoffs. The are GMs who are probably better in rebuilding than Holland, but when it's a contender team it's all about the draft and making smart moves - nothing too big getting all the headlines.

[cusimano_brothers]

The one with the longest proven track record.

[Z Winged Dangler]

We'll see if Holland botches his chance at redemption for the past few years of crap and overpaying Ericsson by 2 mil this summer. I think judging by the saying "what have you done for me lately", he can't keep riding his pre-cap reputation of building greatness. The stars drafted and developed by the Wings take a discount to stay there and he's lucky lately they do.

[BamaWing]

We'll see if Holland botches his chance at redemption for the past few years of crap and overpaying Ericsson by 2 mil this summer. I think judging by the saying "what have you done for me lately", he can't keep riding his pre-cap reputation of building greatness. The stars drafted and developed by the Wings take a discount to stay there and he's lucky lately they do.

Ok the concensus is Holland. I was just wondering how posters felt on here

[paulwoodsfan]

Holland. Of course, to some people the grass is always greener on the other side. It takes a certain sort of mindlessness to always buy into that style of thought, but that failing is, sadly, common for humans.

Yzerman had a successful team last season. This season his team was well out of the playoff race by Thanksgiving. Were this to occur with the Red Wings, people would be calling for Holland's head. But because of the aforementioned style of thought, many people here believe regardless that Yzerman would be better. For that matter, they believe that replacing Holland would be guaranteed to bring about an increase in the Wings' fortunes. It doesn't make a whit of sense.

The Wings won't win the Cup every season. But Holland has produced a level of consistent success unmatched by any other GM of the past 15 years. The reason we see so much screaming about Holland when the Wings don't go deep in the playoffs is, ironically, because of that consistent success.

This. Bingo bango.

[blueadams]

Holland or Yzerman?


Honest question. Who would you trust more? Who do you think would do a better job?

I'd like whoever's organization still has an office for Scotty Bowman.

[mmamolo]

As much as everyone is frustrated with the lack of success the last few years I think we should all be looking at this differently. Most teams in the NHL go through rebuilding modes where they miss the playoffs. The Wings are able to go through their rebuilding periods while having early playoff exits. Everyone who was screaming for UFA signings last summer would be the same people pissed that the Wings wouldnt have cap space heading into this summer to try and get a big ticket player.

I think too often people look at hockey teams on one year intervals. People always say things like, 'the Wings didn't make any trades at the deadline this year, wtf?'. Personally if you look at the cap and the way teams manage it you have to be looking at it on a much larger scale. The Wings are in a prime opportunity to go after big ticket players now and have some prospects that can potentially be impactful. Every time of the last number of years when fans have called for the re-tooling of impact players Holland has done it. Yes, some of those times were pre-cap but he was also able to replace Schneider with Rafalski. I honestly think the Wings have had this summer as their target over the last 2-3 years of cap planning.

I'm not a Holland apologist and I do think some of the moves he has made could have been better. But I do still believe that the overall plan was to move forward this year.

[VM1138]

Holland makes fewer mistakes than any other GM. And on top of that, a lot of what people consider his "mistakes" are actually just real-world restraints placed on him, like the past trade deadline.

2010 and 2011 were injury riddle years where we didn't get to see what sort of team we had. It was only natural for him to take a wait and see approach, since the same team went to the finals 2 years straight before the injuries hit. Then, this is the first year we got a good look at where the team is, and it wasn't pretty. Cut him some slack.

[Motown4013]

We'll see if Holland botches his chance at redemption for the past few years of crap and overpaying Ericsson by 2 mil this summer. I think judging by the saying "what have you done for me lately", he can't keep riding his pre-cap reputation of building greatness. The stars drafted and developed by the Wings take a discount to stay there and he's lucky lately they do.

I agree that Holland needs to go out and address the issues that this hockey club needs to be a success. He needs to do that THIS year or the organization may need to look in a different direction. Detroit needs a top 2 defenseman, a power forward and a sniper.
In saying that, your comment about Ericsson is ridiculous. You ACTUALLY think hes worth only 1.25 a year....Really???

[mmamolo]

I said this last summer and I'll say it again, the Ericsson contract (although shorter in term) is just like most of the contracts Holland signs his mid-twenties players to. It's a deal that they hope that he grows into immediately but realize that come the middle and last years of that contract he will be well worth the dollars. The way Ericsson progressed this year, despite the blind hate for him on this board, he could very well become a good deal in the final year of that deal. Next year I'd say he ends up playing like a $3.25M defenseman and Holland gets fair value. In year three the Wings get a bargain.

[LeftWinger]

as much as I ***** and complain about him, I still have to go with Holland. I think Yzerman just needs more experience before he can come home. Of course this off season could be a defining moment in Hollands career. He faces a huge challenge with Lids retiring, Stuart leaving and coming off three not so great playoff performance by a bunch of stale players. I do think he has made huge mistakes in some of his signings and missing the boat on some others. Franzen needs to be traded, but who will take on that awful contract? Bertuzzi should have been left alone to retire or go elsewhere and he paid too much for Quincey. I liked the White signing even though he struggled without Lidstrom and I think Kronwall being wrapped up for a long time is a great move. I have been liking his drafting recently, trying to go towards a bigger, stronger North American style player along with some small skill instead of just drafting the small skilled Euro-type. I am hoping he is able to pick up Dekeyser next season after school. I am also upset he didn't put a play in for Jeremy Welsh, or if he did, he didn't sell this organization good enough to him.

I cant stand Holland on most nights, but if I am choosing today, its Holland for sure. If Holland doesn't make the right changes this year and seriously impact this teams ineptness to sustain competitiveness for 60 minutes, then I am leaning towards something new, soon, if I am Mr. Ilitch.

[esteef]

Holland continually ignores the toughness factor and benefits from great scouting. It's hard to say who would be better on a level playing field. Yzerman with Red Wings scouting? Now that would be something I'd like to see.

esteef

[Crymson]

I'd like whoever's organization still has an office for Scotty Bowman.

He's currently in the organization that employs his son as its general manager. Stan Bowman's status as general manager of the Blackhawks is why Scotty is part of that organization, and Stan's attainment of a position there was why Scotty moved on from the Red Wings.

Did you actually think that Holland fired Bowman from his advisory position?

[paulwoodsfan]

I honestly think the Wings have had this summer as their target over the last 2-3 years of cap planning.

I'm not a Holland apologist and I do think some of the moves he has made could have been better. But I do still believe that the overall plan was to move forward this year.

I agree that is likely the case. Unless the plan is to also hold some room back for next year. Look who's currently scheduled to be UFA in the summer of 2013 (just listing players currently making $3M/yr or more):

Player Pos Team Age Cap Hit

Crosby, Sidney » F PIT 24 $8,700,000
Iginla, Jarome » F CGY 34 $7,000,000
Timonen, Kimmo » D PHI 37 $6,333,333
Backstrom, Niklas » G MIN 34 $6,000,000
Elias, Patrik » F NJD 36 $6,000,000
Visnovsky, Lubomir » D ANA 35 $5,600,000
Gonchar, Sergei » D OTT 38 $5,500,000
Perry, Corey » F ANA 26 $5,325,000
Getzlaf, Ryan » F ANA 26 $5,325,000
Ribeiro, Mike » F DAL 32 $5,000,000
Thomas, Tim » G BOS 38 $5,000,000
Alfredsson, Daniel » F OTT 39 $4,875,000
Connolly, Tim » F TOR 30 $4,750,000
McDonald, Andy » F STL 34 $4,700,000
Hainsey, Ron » D WIN 31 $4,500,000
Lupul, Joffrey » F TOR 28 $4,250,000
Fisher, Mike » F NAS 31 $4,200,000
Hartnell, Scott » F PHI 30 $4,200,000
Morrow, Brenden » F DAL 33 $4,100,000
Streit, Mark » D NYI 34 $4,100,000
Bouchard, Pierre-Marc » F MIN 27 $4,080,000
Antropov, Nik » F WIN 32 $4,062,500
Regehr, Robyn » D BUF 32 $4,020,000
Staal, Jordan » F PIT 23 $4,000,000
Zidlicky, Marek » D NJD 35 $4,000,000
Whitney, Ryan » D EDM 29 $4,000,000
Roy, Derek » F BUF 28 $4,000,000
Horton, Nathan » F BOS 26 $4,000,000
Zajac, Travis » F NJD 26 $3,887,500
Enstrom, Tobias » D WIN 27 $3,750,000
Khabibulin, Nikolai » G EDM 39 $3,750,000
Clowe, Ryane » F SAN 29 $3,625,000
Lehtonen, Kari » G DAL 28 $3,550,000
Lombardi, Matthew » F TOR 30 $3,500,000
Cullen, Matt » F MIN 35 $3,500,000
Ryder, Michael » F DAL 32 $3,500,000
Hamrlik, Roman » D WAS 38 $3,500,000
Gagne, Simon » F LAK 32 $3,500,000
Zubrus, Dainius » F NJD 33 $3,400,000
Scuderi, Rob » D LAK 33 $3,400,000
MacArthur, Clarke » F TOR 27 $3,250,000
Edler, Alexander » D VAN 26 $3,250,000
Vlasic, Marc-Edouard » D SAN 25 $3,100,000
Weiss, Stephen » F FLA 29 $3,100,000
Filppula, Valtteri » F DET 28 $3,000,000
Armstrong, Colby » F TOR 29 $3,000,000
Lydman, Toni » D ANA 34 $3,000,000
Leopold, Jordan » D BUF 31 $3,000,000

A few of those guys would look pretty good in red and white.

[GMRwings1983]

For the future?

Yzerman.