106 replies to this topic

[Hey man nice shot!]

Maybe he can have more fun on another team.

esteef

This is dead on...and as far as im concerned i would be very pissed to have him in the winged wheel starting next season. I believe him to be lockeroom cancer at this point with his past comments on his own efforts and his current issues. Furthermore on the basis of work ethic we all do what we have to do to get the job done at work...franzen isant, and for a professional to basically come out and say his best efforts are there because of his lack of interest get my blood boiling.

Edited by Hey man nice shot!, 28 April 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[Hey man nice shot!]

Defenders of Franzen,

We appreciate what you're doing, sticking up for a Red Wing and all.

But Franzen is lazy.

And he sucks.

Franzen hardly sucks...but his additude does

[Doc Holliday]

I grow tired of these athletes who get to play a game for a living, are millionaires by age 30, and still need someone to motivate them to show up for work and try. How about yank that contract and send his ass to the minors. Let's see how much f***in' "fun" he has then.

esteef

Yeah, then you lose a 25-30 goal scorer for nothing.

Great strategy, LGW.

Also, regarding Babcock and Franzen:

“I don't think we scored even-strength at all (four five-on-five goals in the series),'' Babcock said. “I don't think you want to point at the Mule. I think you want to point at all of us.''

The team was the problem. Franzen's quotes represent a team problem, not an individual problem.

This is dead on...and as far as im concerned i would be very pissed to have him in the winged wheel starting next season. I believe him to be lockeroom cancer at this point with his past comments on his own efforts and his current issues. Furthermore on the basis of work ethic we all do what we have to do to get the job done at work...franzen isant, and for a professional to basically come out and say his best efforts are there because of his lack of interest get my blood boiling.

Franzen doesn't talk about lack of interest in this article. He talks about an apparent and obvious lack of confidence through all four lines and the defense against a team that capitalized on that.

"Get some joy back, believing in ourselves, knowing that we're a good team, and play for each other.''
“We got a great team. We just got to realize that.''

Don't let the silly quote changing in the OP keep you from looking at an article objectively.

[esteef]

Yeah, then you lose a 25-30 goal scorer for nothing.

Great strategy, LGW.

Oh No! Cause there are no other players in the league who can score 25-30 goals! That excuse is already stale.

esteef

[b.shanafan14]

Yeah, then you lose a 25-30 goal scorer for nothing.

Great strategy, LGW.

Also, regarding Babcock and Franzen:

“I don't think we scored even-strength at all (four five-on-five goals in the series),'' Babcock said. “I don't think you want to point at the Mule. I think you want to point at all of us.''

The team was the problem. Franzen's quotes represent a team problem, not an individual problem.

Franzen doesn't talk about lack of interest in this article. He talks about an apparent and obvious lack of confidence through all four lines and the defense against a team that capitalized on that.

"Get some joy back, believing in ourselves, knowing that we're a good team, and play for each other.''
“We got a great team. We just got to realize that.''

Don't let the silly quote changing in the OP keep you from looking at an article objectively.

First off, I'm fairly certain he was kidding/using hyperbole, not actually suggesting losing Franzen's production for nothing.

Other than that, have you not seen Franzen's play the last few years or heard/read any of the things coming from his own mouth? Its not all LGW hysteria, the guy has a terrible attitude.

The point of the thread is Franzen and his s***ty attitude, not Franzen as the only reason the Wings lost. So to avoid that easy out for everyone still pro-Franzen, I'll say this officially: Johan Franzen is not the reason the Detroit Red Wings lost. However, the way some people can defend a guy who is basically Robert Lang 2.0 with tenure is absurd to me. Look passed the fact that the Wings lost and look at the way the guy plays and carries himself publicly.

And again, as I said, Babcock was speaking about why the team lost, saying it wasn't just Franzen, which we have now established. Using that one line as a pardon for Franzen's play, effort, and attitude is just plain flawed. Babcock has made several indicting statements about the player himself within that context. And we've also established that Babcock's hands are tied as far as how to deal with the situation, and that especially now, with the season over, it does him and the organization no good to elaborate and just how bad Franzen has been. Why s*** on his trade value? And if they are planning to keep him, what good does it do at this point to humiliate a guy who is such a pouter as it is?

[Doc Holliday]

First off, I'm fairly certain he was kidding/using hyperbole, not actually suggesting losing Franzen's production for nothing.

Other than that, have you not seen Franzen's play the last few years or heard/read any of the things coming from his own mouth? Its not all LGW hysteria, the guy has a terrible attitude.

You used a crappy article to make your point.

The point of the thread is Franzen and his s***ty attitude, not Franzen as the only reason the Wings lost. So to avoid that easy out for everyone still pro-Franzen, I'll say this officially: Johan Franzen is not the reason the Detroit Red Wings lost. However, the way some people can defend a guy who is basically Robert Lang 2.0 with tenure is absurd to me. Look passed the fact that the Wings lost and look at the way the guy plays and carries himself publicly.

For starters, you took quotes that implied the team just didn't have the confidence and took it to Franzen saying "I want to have more fun out there." The article itself is about the team having issues up and down, but you used it in a thread to say "Franzen has a terrible attitude and this article shows why." It's crap.

And again, as I said, Babcock was speaking about why the team lost, saying it wasn't just Franzen, which we have now established. Using that one line as a pardon for Franzen's play, effort, and attitude is just plain flawed. Babcock has made several indicting statements about the player himself within that context. And we've also established that Babcock's hands are tied as far as how to deal with the situation, and that especially now, with the season over, it does him and the organization no good to elaborate and just how bad Franzen has been. Why s*** on his trade value? And if they are planning to keep him, what good does it do at this point to humiliate a guy who is such a pouter as it is?

I'm not using it as a pardon. I'm using it to emphasize the fact Franzen has been an easy scapegoat all season to point fingers at for the team's play during the season. You cannot deny that. Also, I always thought Lang was a pretty easy scapegoat as well (of course the fact he signed for $4 million in Chicago doesn't help as far as Detroit's cap constraints were concerned), so I can understand the comparison.

And in the first page I wasn't opposed to moving Franzen to make an identity change with the team, so nobody is pardoning his play. Just putting it into perspective and providing context. Even if we keep his crappy ass on the team we can be guaranteed 25-30 goals with a reasonable cap hit. And LGW will be griping all along the way.

Oh No! Cause there are no other players in the league who can score 25-30 goals! That excuse is already stale.

esteef

Maybe we should sign semin and trade away Abdelkader and Helm for him. Throw in Sheahan just in case.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 28 April 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Donaldjr2448]

I am happy that everyone is beginning to feel the same way I have all season. Franzen is a complete joke and I have not been happy with him in a few years now. It is obvious that Holland made a huge mistake by signing this guy to a huge contract, but it was a 50/50 kinda thing.

Like others have stated, I think its time for Franzen to move on. The guy has so much talent but simply does not know how to bring it each night. I thought it was amazing the one time he went to the net in the Nashville Series he scored a damn goal. Not to mention Jiri Hudler out scored Mule in the playoff. If that does not get you excited then I guess nothing will.

To defend Franzen though, this team needs change badly. That first round exit was one of the worst I have ever seen. 0 effort by just about everyone on that team during the playoffs and for that I will defend Mule.

[kipwinger]

I am happy that everyone is beginning to feel the same way I have all season. Franzen is a complete joke and I have not been happy with him in a few years now. It is obvious that Holland made a huge mistake by signing this guy to a huge contract, but it was a 50/50 kinda thing.

Like others have stated, I think its time for Franzen to move on. The guy has so much talent but simply does not know how to bring it each night. I thought it was amazing the one time he went to the net in the Nashville Series he scored a damn goal. Not to mention Jiri Hudler out scored Mule in the playoff. If that does not get you excited then I guess nothing will.

To defend Franzen though, this team needs change badly. That first round exit was one of the worst I have ever seen. 0 effort by just about everyone on that team during the playoffs and for that I will defend Mule.

As I've said before, I agree with all of the points about Franzen's play. He's inconsistent, often lazy, and largely an under achiever. But I don't think that the guy needs to move on or be traded or whatever. He is still extremely valuable as a complimentary goal scorer. He just can't be the guy to carry the offensive load for a team because he's inconsistent. I understand that the wings gave him a contract in hopes that he would continue to improve on a couple of good seasons and be that kind of guy, but in the end he just isn't. With more forward depth in the top six, Franzen is still very very valuable. Insert a true goal scorer into this lineup who CAN carry the offensive load, and all of the sudden Franzen's 28 goals (or whatever he is currently averaging) looks pretty good. Plus, depth creates all sorts of opportunities to exploit mismatches and defensive weaknesses, which will only increase Franzen's effectiveness in all likelihood. The guy's a good player, he's just not the elite player that the management, the fans, and I personally hoped he would turn out to be. Basically, it's a matter of changing his role to fit what he is, and not what we all hoped he would be.

Edited by kipwinger, 28 April 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[Dimaline312000]

Good article, I agree the Wings need to have more fun and really agree about getting some confidence back. This is a good hockey club and we don't need a major shake-up but we do need some new blood and even som young blood in the line-up next season. Our big guns did not preform at all in the playoffs add to Nashville being a strong team and Rinne being a phenominal goalie... well you saw what happened. Wings need to get stronger on the Power Play that's for sure and depending on what Liddy and Holmsy do we are going to need a big D-Man. Wings definetly need a younger goal scorer to help spark the Euro-Twins and the Mule next season and as long as we have the Cap Space may as well get what we need while we can. I still say the Wings need more of a youth injection. Yes we have to have our Veteran Leadership but our younger guys have that drive and that fire within to help this team so Wings need to make our younger players bigger role players and attempt to get them producing a bit more. However it did seem like our 3rd and 4th lines were producing more in the playoffs than our big guns so I guess that righ there goes to show you that the younger guys can fill those shoes. Confidence is a very tricky thing. I've battled that for 3 years in the Hockey I play and sure you need to score goals and feel like you're producing and helping your team to get confidence but you have to realize that even stuff that may go unnoticed can give you confidence even if it's the smallest thing you have to find some confidence somewhere becuse if you only get confidence from scoring goals or getting assits you're either gonna have to be a top player in the league or you not gonna last long playing this game. Also what's the word on Eaves. I know it's a long ways away but is he going to be able to come back or no? I mean it's a waste of a roster spot to have a player that's injured just sitting there. I mean I know it wasn't his fault that he got injured but can the Wings still keep him on the roster and still be able to get what we need while he's getting better or can we trade him and get something for him, not that anyone is going to be willing to give up anything for an injured player but even if we just got the cap and roster space for him it would be ok. So IMO we do ned to make some changes but I don't think they have to be major changes, just tweaking the roster a bit.

[LeftWinger]

Fun? Confidence? Like winning an ALL TIME NHL RECORD 23 wins in a row at home isn't fun or motivating, or makes you more confident....Fact is, you, I and the Detroit Red Wings know that they had no business winning all those games, not the way they were playing. They were playing like crap for the most part, fortunate they were winning at home, but they were losing everything on the road, then when they ran out of steam, they lost everything. Not one win at home in the playoffs.

This team needs more than tweaks and line juggling...it needs a major influence up front (Parise) and on the D (Suter.) It needs a #2 goalie who is actually going to challenge Jimmy for the starting spot, not someone who is a career AHL'er. Some if not most of you do not like the "names" I picked, but in reality we all have players who we'd like to see leave and come to this team. A major shakeup would be letting go of Franzen, Cleary, Hudler, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Emmerton, Mursak to trades and retirement and adding Parise, Semin, Morrow, Nyquist, Sheahan, Suter & Vokoun. You can insert your own names that you think will make this team compete again, but the fact remains, tweaks don't work with this team, it's been tweaked all year long. It's time for change, it's time for excitement to return to Joe Louis Arena and say what you will, but a top two scoring lines of:

Parise-Dastyuk-Semin
Filppula-Zetterberg-Nyquist

is far more exciting and actually better than

Franzen-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi
Filppula-Zetterberg-Hudler.

Lids may or may not retire, and that is fine, but he needs to sit down with Holland and tell him he will take whatever is leftover after trying to SERIOUSLY make a run at Parise AND Suter if not others as well. Let Holland try to secure our future first, then offer our history his final contract. If Holland throws $6.2M at Lidstrom again, it will screw us for Parise and Suter and we will NEVER have this opportunity again to secure two of the best players in the league today (IN THEIR PRIME) for the rest of their career's...Please Nick, either retire or do the right thing by your fans and this team...

Edited by LeftWinger, 29 April 2012 - 04:15 PM.

[b.shanafan14]

Please god, no Semin. He has a lot of offensive potential, but he will essentially be a much more expensive Franzen. He is streaky, soft, and has a terrible attitude. He disappears for long stretches and floats the same as Franzen. Also, there is no way with the cap going up and scorers being a hot commodity that the Wings could get him for less than around $6 mil/season. Not worth it.

[brett]

this guy is in the wrong profession if he wants to have fun

[b.shanafan14]

this guy is in the wrong profession if he wants to have fun

Getting paid millions to play a game?

[LeftWinger]

Please god, no Semin. He has a lot of offensive potential, but he will essentially be a much more expensive Franzen. He is streaky, soft, and has a terrible attitude. He disappears for long stretches and floats the same as Franzen. Also, there is no way with the cap going up and scorers being a hot commodity that the Wings could get him for less than around $6 mil/season. Not worth it.

Ya, with the other teams out there looking to throw money around like it's falling from their ass, I would hate to overpay someone like Semin. I like Semin on this team for $5M, anything more, I agree, not worth it. But I do think Holland should s*** money all over Suter and Parise and give them WHATEVER it takes to secure the Wings future. They got to be signed for AT LEAST 5 years each!

I grow tired of these athletes who get to play a game for a living, are millionaires by age 30, and still need someone to motivate them to show up for work and try. How about yank that contract and send his ass to the minors. Let's see how much f***in' "fun" he has then.

esteef

He'd have so much f***in' fun, he'll be whistling Zippidy Doo Dah out of his *******! ©

[pucktividi]

"Get some joy back, believing in ourselves, knowing that we're a good team, and play for each other.''
“We got a great team. We just got to realize that.''

Basically,there's nothing wrong with this statement.The problem is that he should be the last guy to call the team out,especially in the media.A bit hypocrisy from Mr.Franzen

[brett]

Getting paid millions to play a game?

once your at the level hes at its no longer fun and games

[Buppy]

I know you are trying to defend Franzen, but do you honestly believe what you turned his post into?

Because if you do, then let me remind you of something. Wings were pretty much ONE goalpost away from a back to back Stanley Cup win in 2009. I'd say they did pretty damn good that playoff....yet, to this day, hardly NOBODY forgives Hossa for not scoring 50 goals in the playoffs...despite having 6 goals amongst 15 points (only 8 behind Franzen that playoff BTW)

Man I wish Holland had chosen Hossa over Franzen that off season.....oh well. Now noone will take his God awful contract and in 3-4 years when he his only scoring 15-20 points per season, the only way out will be to buy him out...

Sorry, are you trying to use Hossa to show that people do not unreasonably scapegoat players when we lose?

We had a good playoff that year, but we did lose. Certainly once we went up 3-2 in the finals we expected to win, and the dissapointment was every bit as bad (or worse to some) than the losses since. Hossa did have a decent playoff (though below expectations), and people still use him (and Stuart) as scapegoats. That is exactly the type of thing I'm suggesting is happening to Franzen now.

And you really wish we had Hossa instead? An extra $1.3M cap hit, and a year longer...for fewer goals? How many points did Hossa score in the Blackhawk's first-round loss?

Franzen is a 30-goal scorer at a 30-goal scorer price (less actually, but fair when considering term, and especially considering we had to re-sign him at a high-value point). Sure he's 'soft', and plays too much on the perimeter. Just not nearly to the extent some people suggest. Expectations are too high, based pretty much solely on a few anomolies (Colorado series, 5 goal game...). But whatever, I'm not going to get into some big, pointless debate with people who are looking for someone to hate. You'll get over it or you wont. At least he's a player who matters, rather than the typical LGW 4th-liner/3rd-pairing/backup goalie whipping boy.

[Doc Holliday]

Basically,there's nothing wrong with this statement.The problem is that he should be the last guy to call the team out,especially in the media.A bit hypocrisy from Mr.Franzen

He isn't calling the team out.

How does saying the team lacked the confidence and lost momentum at the worst times due to timely Nashville goals equate to calling his own players out? They struggled. He struggled. The team in general got into funk and Nashville took advantage of it. There is nothing hypocritical or wrong with what Franzen said.

[Red Wings Addict]

This reminds me of some media fun that happened during the questionable start the Wings had in 2009. Many people pointed the finger at Ozzie because he wasn't playing even close to his capabilities. He simply said something along the lines of, "We just need to play loose and we'll play better." When one of the reporters brought that to Babs' attention he slyly said, "Well there's an easy way to do that..." As in, the team could play more loose if Ozzie played better.

[Nev]

Sorry, are you trying to use Hossa to show that people do not unreasonably scapegoat players when we lose?

We had a good playoff that year, but we did lose. Certainly once we went up 3-2 in the finals we expected to win, and the dissapointment was every bit as bad (or worse to some) than the losses since. Hossa did have a decent playoff (though below expectations), and people still use him (and Stuart) as scapegoats. That is exactly the type of thing I'm suggesting is happening to Franzen now.

And you really wish we had Hossa instead? An extra $1.3M cap hit, and a year longer...for fewer goals? How many points did Hossa score in the Blackhawk's first-round loss?

Franzen is a 30-goal scorer at a 30-goal scorer price (less actually, but fair when considering term, and especially considering we had to re-sign him at a high-value point). Sure he's 'soft', and plays too much on the perimeter. Just not nearly to the extent some people suggest. Expectations are too high, based pretty much solely on a few anomolies (Colorado series, 5 goal game...). But whatever, I'm not going to get into some big, pointless debate with people who are looking for someone to hate. You'll get over it or you wont. At least he's a player who matters, rather than the typical LGW 4th-liner/3rd-pairing/backup goalie whipping boy.

This "scapegoating" of Franzen isn't a new thing. People really started to notice his lack of effort in 2010-11. It had been apparent in some games the season before that, but last season was when it really became an issue.

Is he the only reason we lost? Of course not. But he is the most under-achieving, least effort-giving floater on this team. If he didn't have one of the hardest working, most insanely talented players you've ever seen on his line do you really think he still could have coasted his way to 29 goals?