106 replies to this topic

[Doc Holliday]

This "scapegoating" of Franzen isn't a new thing. People really started to notice his lack of effort in 2010-11. It had been apparent in some games the season before that, but last season was when it really became an issue.

Is he the only reason we lost? Of course not. But he is the most under-achieving, least effort-giving floater on this team. If he didn't have one of the hardest working, most insanely talented players you've ever seen on his line do you really think he still could have coasted his way to 29 goals?

Isn't the point that he scored 29 goals and led the team in goal scoring?

And shouldn't Bertuzzi's goal totals be a bit better considering? His goal scoring has been pretty constant the past few years before even coming back to Detroit. In fact the only thing that has really improved is his +/-.

Datsyuk helps, but it isn't like Franzen would only score 10 goals without the guy. Besides, I think the entire issue with the blame game is Franzen shouldn't be counted on to lead this team offensively. Holland sure has the cap hit to sign a bonafide scorer and allow Franzen the ability to be a damn good complimentary player.

Edited by Doc Holliday, 30 April 2012 - 08:36 AM.

[Nev]

Isn't the point that he scored 29 goals and led the team in goal scoring?

I think it points more to a lack of goalscorers on our team that we think 29 goals is a big deal.

And shouldn't Bertuzzi's goal totals be a bit better considering? His goal scoring has been pretty constant the past few years before even coming back to Detroit. In fact the only thing that has really improved is his +/-.

Bertuzzi is 37 and a shell of his former self, who generally tries as hard as his old bones will let him, and plays and acts like he actually gives a damn.

Datsyuk helps, but it isn't like Franzen would only score 10 goals without the guy.

You reckon? A broken down Cleary (equivalent to a no-effort Franzen) with no real playmaking talent alongside him got what, 11 goals?

Besides, I think the entire issue with the blame game is Franzen shouldn't be counted on to lead this team offensively. Holland sure has the cap hit to sign a bonafide scorer and allow Franzen the ability to be a damn good complimentary player.

You may have a point, but whether he is playing in the role of top-line sniper with the elite playmaker feeding him the puck, or 3rd line big-body with the hands to score some goals, he still has to put the effort in!!!!!! His production isn't the problem. His role isn't the problem. His complete lack of effort, lack of accountablity and lack of shame is.

[Doc Holliday]

I think it points more to a lack of goalscorers on our team that we think 29 goals is a big deal.

Nobody is saying it is a big deal. In fact, I agreed on that very same post we have a lack of goalscoring on this roster.

Bertuzzi is 37 and a shell of his former self, who generally tries as hard as his old bones will let him, and plays and acts like he actually gives a damn.

Yet hasn't scored more than 20 goals since 2006. The point is Datsyuk doesn't make his linemates score at will.

You reckon? A broken down Cleary (equivalent to a no-effort Franzen) with no real playmaking talent alongside him got what, 11 goals?

What is your point? That Cleary would score 30 goals with Datsyuk?

You may have a point, but whether he is playing in the role of top-line sniper with the elite playmaker feeding him the puck, or 3rd line big-body with the hands to score some goals, he still has to put the effort in!!!!!! His production isn't the problem. His role isn't the problem. His complete lack of effort, lack of accountablity and lack of shame is.

I'm not saying his effort is the problem, but the fact is Franzen is the only bonafide goal scorer we have. Zetterberg has declined due to back issues, Hudler may be moved, Filppula and Datsyuk are playmakers, and Cleary is too injury prone to really be a consistent offensive provider.

If you don't rely soley on Franzen to drive the net and put the puck in, his lack of effort isn't as big of a hot button issue. And all in all this entire conversation started from a quote that was purposefully misinterpreted by the OP to incite a hate-fest. And this happens to a lot of Wings players. Cleary, Osgood, Hudler, Lang, etc.

[kipwinger]

Isn't the point that he scored 29 goals and led the team in goal scoring?

And shouldn't Bertuzzi's goal totals be a bit better considering? His goal scoring has been pretty constant the past few years before even coming back to Detroit. In fact the only thing that has really improved is his +/-.

Datsyuk helps, but it isn't like Franzen would only score 10 goals without the guy. Besides, I think the entire issue with the blame game is Franzen shouldn't be counted on to lead this team offensively. Holland sure has the cap hit to sign a bonafide scorer and allow Franzen the ability to be a damn good complimentary player.

Haha I'll anticipate a royalty check, or at least an acknowledgement note in the mail any day now.

[dropkickshanahans]

Haha I'll anticipate a royalty check, or at least an acknowledgement note in the mail any day now.

I remember him saying this long before.

[kipwinger]

I remember him saying this long before.

I know that, I'm screwing with him because I happened to say it before him in this particular thread. It's not like it's an exclusive observation, anyone watching the Wings for the last couple of years should probably have come to the same conclusion.

[Buppy]

I think it points more to a lack of goalscorers on our team that we think 29 goals is a big deal.

...

You may have a point, but whether he is playing in the role of top-line sniper with the elite playmaker feeding him the puck, or 3rd line big-body with the hands to score some goals, he still has to put the effort in!!!!!! His production isn't the problem. His role isn't the problem. His complete lack of effort, lack of accountablity and lack of shame is.

29 goals IS a pretty big deal, considering that only 35 players in the entire league managed to score that many. Only 10 players scored more than 35. Parise, whom everyone seems to consider the messiah, scored 31. Virtually identical goals/game. Franzen is a top-line sniper.

You can't say his production is fine, but then criticize him for lacking effort. If more effort doesn't equate to more production then it's a little pointless to ***** about it. If you believe his production should be higher, what are you basing that on? A few anomolous hot streaks/games? Since breaking out, he's consistently produced at a 30-ish goal level. He has his hot and cold streaks like every other scorer. The only basis for thinking he should be anything more is if you only look at a few peaks and base your expectations off that. It doesn't make any sense.

Zetterberg going from 4 straight 30+ goal seasons (including seasons scoring 39 and 43) to now scoring in the low 20s the past few years (hmm... every year since he signed his long-term deal...), and Datsyuk dropping to a ~22 goal pace after 7 straight years in the 27-33 range has a lot more to do with the 'lack of top-6 goal scoring' we seem to all be so worried about, than does Franzen not being a top-10 sniper, regardless of effort level.

[LeftWinger]

29 goals IS a pretty big deal, considering that only 35 players in the entire league managed to score that many. Only 10 players scored more than 35. Parise, whom everyone seems to consider the messiah, scored 31. Virtually identical goals/game. Franzen is a top-line sniper.

You can't say his production is fine, but then criticize him for lacking effort. If more effort doesn't equate to more production then it's a little pointless to ***** about it. If you believe his production should be higher, what are you basing that on? A few anomolous hot streaks/games? Since breaking out, he's consistently produced at a 30-ish goal level. He has his hot and cold streaks like every other scorer. The only basis for thinking he should be anything more is if you only look at a few peaks and base your expectations off that. It doesn't make any sense.

Zetterberg going from 4 straight 30+ goal seasons (including seasons scoring 39 and 43) to now scoring in the low 20s the past few years (hmm... every year since he signed his long-term deal...), and Datsyuk dropping to a ~22 goal pace after 7 straight years in the 27-33 range has a lot more to do with the 'lack of top-6 goal scoring' we seem to all be so worried about, than does Franzen not being a top-10 sniper, regardless of effort level.

Is this sarcasm?

[Buppy]

Is this sarcasm?

T-31st, T-34th, Injured but pace would have put him around 25th-35th, T-16th, T-42nd.

That's where Franzen has been in goal scoring the past five years. That is top line goal scoring. Perhaps you are equating the term to "elite-in-the-league-sniper". It's not the same thing. He is definitely the former, and definitely not the latter.

[joesuffP]

Who cares if it looks like he doesn't care. I would rather have a not caring Franzen who scores around 30 goals a season to a bunch of guys that have to bust their ass to get 15 goals... The team needs goals, the problem hasn't been effort this season... It's lack of structure and depth... I don't blame coaching for lack of structure I blame the line up... People have been saying this team doesn't care because we look bad on the ice when the truth is we never had a very good line up... Some players were put in a role above their ability and that's where the weaknesses were shown against elite teams... We did alright considering all our holes

[LeftWinger]

T-31st, T-34th, Injured but pace would have put him around 25th-35th, T-16th, T-42nd.

That's where Franzen has been in goal scoring the past five years. That is top line goal scoring. Perhaps you are equating the term to "elite-in-the-league-sniper". It's not the same thing. He is definitely the former, and definitely not the latter.

Call it whatever you want, but when you make a list of "snipers" in the league, Franzen will not be on it. Is he the closest thing the Wings have? Maybe, but he in no way is a "sniper" elite or not. A "sniper" can score from anywhere from anyone...Take him off Datsyuk's line and he barely nets 10 and that is not a "sniper." Of course that is my opinion just by watching him without Datsyuk at the end of the season...He has no heart, it's no wonder he gets bored. He sure has financial security though...

Edited by LeftWinger, 01 May 2012 - 06:04 AM.

[joesuffP]

Call it whatever you want, but when you make a list of "snipers" in the league, Franzen will not be on it. Is he the closest thing the Wings have? Maybe, but he in no way is a "sniper" elite or not. A "sniper" can score from anywhere from anyone...Take him off Datsyuk's line and he barely nets 10 and that is not a "sniper." Of course that is my opinion just by watching him without Datsyuk at the end of the season...He has no heart, it's no wonder he gets bored. He sure has financial security though...

The wings have bigger issues than Franzen not scoring 60 goals a season... 30 goals a year is respectable... Having an offense built around a 30 goal scorer is not acceptable... And I'm not so sure Datsyuk could make any player in the world a 30 goal scorer by playing on his wing

[kipwinger]

The wings have bigger issues than Franzen not scoring 60 goals a season... 30 goals a year is respectable... Having an offense built around a 30 goal scorer is not acceptable... And I'm not so sure Datsyuk could make any player in the world a 30 goal scorer by playing on his wing

He sure couldn't make anyone look that good at the end of this season. People conveniently overlook the fact that Datsyuk wasn't all that "elite" down the stretch and in the playoffs either. Certainly not his fault that we lost, but he was one amongst the multitude of players not making a difference against Nashville.

[Marty Barry]

Bounty program? That might make it more fun.

[dat's sick]

He sure couldn't make anyone look that good at the end of this season. People conveniently overlook the fact that Datsyuk wasn't all that "elite" down the stretch and in the playoffs either. Certainly not his fault that we lost, but he was one amongst the multitude of players not making a difference against Nashville.

He wasn't himself after having knee surgery. I don't think there was any lack of effort.

To see what a healthy Datsyuk looks like in the playoffs, see 2011 when he almost won 2 playoff series on his own.

[kipwinger]

He wasn't himself after having knee surgery. I don't think there was any lack of effort.

To see what a healthy Datsyuk looks like in the playoffs, see 2011 when he almost won 2 playoff series on his own.

Agreed, he wasn't the same after the injury. The point was to show that nobody really played as well as we expected in the playoffs. That's why we lost. Well, that and the Predators played a pretty good series.

[Dabura]

You can't say his production is fine, but then criticize him for lacking effort.

Sure you can. But we don't even need to get into that.

Franzen's getting paid good money. He's got long-term job security. He plays on a line with Pavel Datsyuk. By his own admission, he doesn't care much for the regular season, preferring to save the goods for the playoffs.

The Preds beat us in five games. Franzen scored all of one goal, and it was flukey. He was essentially a no-show - and I'm not just talking about his point production. Worst of all, he wasn't having fun. (The poor, poor guy.)

Is he the reason the Wings lost? No, it was a "team effort." Is he the only lazy guy on the roster? No. Is he the only one who disappeared against the Preds? No.

Is his disappearing act completely disappointing and unacceptable? Yes.

Cleary was a bigger force for us against the Preds, and he was playing on one leg. Cleary elevates his game in the postseason. It's not magic, it's not rocket science, it's nothing any pro hockey player can't do. Cleary gives it his all. He plays with serious heart (and balls of steel). The competition is tougher in the playoffs, so he works harder, invests himself more deeply, more thoroughly. He's totally committed, totally engaged.

Franzen? Not so much! Which is a genuine shame, and absolutely worth bitching about. Why? Bottom line: he has incredible potential. In this, he is, ironically, not unlike young Dan Cleary.

[dropkickshanahans]

Could someone post the article that quotes Franzen saying he's bored with the regular season? I can't find it anywhere through google and I'm starting to question whether it was even said or if it was taken out of context and people ran with it, just like in this very thread and the other thread claiming Babcock took a shot at Holland for lack of depth when he really meant not having Helm and Eaves.

[Buppy]

Sure you can. But we don't even need to get into that.

Franzen's getting paid good money. He's got long-term job security. He plays on a line with Pavel Datsyuk. By his own admission, he doesn't care much for the regular season, preferring to save the goods for the playoffs.

The Preds beat us in five games. Franzen scored all of one goal, and it was flukey. He was essentially a no-show - and I'm not just talking about his point production. Worst of all, he wasn't having fun. (The poor, poor guy.)

Is he the reason the Wings lost? No, it was a "team effort." Is he the only lazy guy on the roster? No. Is he the only one who disappeared against the Preds? No.

Is his disappearing act completely disappointing and unacceptable? Yes.

Cleary was a bigger force for us against the Preds, and he was playing on one leg. Cleary elevates his game in the postseason. It's not magic, it's not rocket science, it's nothing any pro hockey player can't do. Cleary gives it his all. He plays with serious heart (and balls of steel). The competition is tougher in the playoffs, so he works harder, invests himself more deeply, more thoroughly. He's totally committed, totally engaged.

Franzen? Not so much! Which is a genuine shame, and absolutely worth bitching about. Why? Bottom line: he has incredible potential. In this, he is, ironically, not unlike young Dan Cleary.

That doesn't make any sense. I said you can't say Franzen's production is fine, while criticizing effort. Here you are criticizing his production, so what you quoted doesn't apply.

I have no problem with Franzen being criticized for his performance against the Preds. I don't agree that is was laziness, but whatever. I have a wierd feeling that somehow this is going to turn into some "Franzen disappears in the playoffs" thread. How ironic that would be.

I know you're not blaming him solely for the loss, but I think you (and others) are using him as an outlet for your anger over the disappointing loss. I do believe that if we had won, and went on to win the Cup, and that flukey goal was his only point in the playoffs, you'd see a lot less criticism of him.

I think that shows in the double standard you show in this post. You criticize Franzen for saying he "saves the goods for the playoffs", then praise Cleary for the very same thing. (If Cleary works harder in the playoffs, then by definition he is not giving 100% in the regular season.) No one expected Cleary to score, so no one was disappointed when he didn't. Many expected Franzen to be dominant so his ineffectiveness was disappointing. Makes him an easy target.

There's no basis for this "Franzen has incredible potential" line. In over 500 career games he's had maybe 20 or so where he's looked like the superstar some people seem to think he should be. Those are anomolies, and you can't base your everyday expectations from them. Sometimes, things just click. The puck seems to follow you, shots seem to find all the seams, etc. Other times it goes the other way. As a whole he looks like just a good NHL goal-scorer. Closer to Cleary (or at least what we should expect from Cleary playing in the top-6) than an elite superstar like some seem to think he should be.

[GMRwings1983]

He should hang out with Radulov and Kostitsyn apparently.