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#61 Richdg

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:33 AM

We need to learn from the past, otherwise it's all meaningless. We have to look to the future through the lens of past experience. Having said that - we lost this year (and have lost in recent years) for a collection of reasons. So, e.g., both our top 6 and bottom 6 are, as they currently stand, problematic - and, yes, the two are interrelated, as are all the reasons for our postseasons woes (Helm being out, for example, DOES have an impact on the top 6 and those guys' success - or lack thereof - on the scoreboard).



Eaves was out all year. He wasn't a problem being gone. If it really was a major issue Holland would have picked someone up at the deadline. he didn't. tells you all you need to know. As for Z and Datsyk, they kill penalties all year long. They have their entire careers. This is not a new thing. Yes having Helm might have added a goal or 2 from the bottom 2 lines. But guess what, he is coming back, so not an issue. The real issue remains the top 2 lines. franzen, Z and datsyk didn't score. neither did Burt or Franzen. Filppula never does. Hommer didn't. Hudler didn't. 2 of them are already gone. 2 can't be moved. One other issue that will be new for us this hear, is no front of the net guy anymore. Hommer-maybe the best ever at it is gone. Neither Franzen nor Burt are any good at it, nor is Parise btw. But all of those guys were healthy, and they didn't do their jobs. The part we don't know is, is this the new norm or just a one off thing? Go back and re=watch the palyoff series. Yes it is painfull....... But none of these guys could create any space to score. Without space, you don't have time. Without time, you rarely score.

#62 Frozen-Man

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:05 AM

Hmmmmm how on earth would 2 penalty killers and another defensive forward being at 50% hurt Dats and Z?.... Who do you think is going to kill penalties while those guys can't? Babcock literally said during the playoffs "I hate having Helmer and Eaves out because that means I have to use Hank and Pavel for defensive assignments when I'd rather have them focused on offense." paraphrased of course.


Exactly and that problem is compounded by how much time the Wings spent shorthanded during the playoffs. They had so many penalties and spent so much time short handed, while having Helmer and Patty out with injuries (they were our two highest forwards at PK TOI/G). That PK time had to come from somewhere. Dats went from 1:13 shorthanded TOI/G in the regular season to more than double that at 2:47 TOI/G in the playoffs (Hank had a more reasonable increase from 1:04 in the regular season to 1:47 in the playoff but still a significant increase).

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#63 number9

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:29 AM

Eaves was out all year. He wasn't a problem being gone. If it really was a major issue Holland would have picked someone up at the deadline. he didn't. tells you all you need to know. As for Z and Datsyk, they kill penalties all year long. They have their entire careers. This is not a new thing. Yes having Helm might have added a goal or 2 from the bottom 2 lines. But guess what, he is coming back, so not an issue. The real issue remains the top 2 lines. franzen, Z and datsyk didn't score. neither did Burt or Franzen. Filppula never does. Hommer didn't. Hudler didn't. 2 of them are already gone. 2 can't be moved. One other issue that will be new for us this hear, is no front of the net guy anymore. Hommer-maybe the best ever at it is gone. Neither Franzen nor Burt are any good at it, nor is Parise btw. But all of those guys were healthy, and they didn't do their jobs. The part we don't know is, is this the new norm or just a one off thing? Go back and re=watch the palyoff series. Yes it is painfull....... But none of these guys could create any space to score. Without space, you don't have time. Without time, you rarely score.


Do you listen to the words coming out of your mouth? Our second best penalty killer being out is not, not a problem. You must not remember but Babs was PISSED that Holland didn't add anyone to the bottom 6 at the deadline. Pavs and Z typically only kill big penalties....like when were up by 1 in the 3rd. Eaves, Helm, Miller, Abby, and Cleary take the rest. You must not understand Hollands style either because he does not just add people willy nilly....He almost never makes lopsided trades or goes after guys unless there a perfect fit, contractually and athletically. On top of that he thinks 10 steps ahead....like trading away Commodore to keep roster spots open for Dekeyster or someone else...My guess as to why he didn't add anyone is because there's probably someone he wants who will be an FA soon or hes saving money to make a run at Parise or Suter or something. Again, he thinks 10 steps ahead....he doesn't want to win one cup now....he wants to win 3 in the next 10 seasons.

I have no idea why you are obsessing about space. I understand your logic and the space argument...space is important....but we get plenty of it. Our top 6 is not a problem (though I would like to see a pure sniper better than Hudler amongst them). Our top 6 had a much better scoring percentage going into the series than Nashvilles top 6 and they had plenty of space to work....we out shot them 160 to 116 over the series.


game 5 22-25 (SF/SA)
game 4 41-17
game 3 43-22
game 2 17-26
game 1 37-26

You sir need to go rewatch that series....yes it's painful cause we lost and I remember a few painful goofs we made....but overall we played pretty darn good series, we just got really unlucky at times. We couldnt get a good bounce to save our lives, Rinne played amazing while Howie was average, we had zero checking lines to create energy and no third scoring line...while they had 2 big checking lines and 1 of those lines could also score. And we had Dats and Z focused on defense cause Helm, Eaves, and Cleary couldnt be utilized.

Guys like Zetterberg and Franzen are some of the best playoff producers in the league....this just wasnt their year...you cant win em all. Sorry but it has nothing to do with space bud.

Exactly and that problem is compounded by how much time the Wings spent shorthanded during the playoffs. They had so many penalties and spent so much time short handed, while having Helmer and Patty out with injuries (they were our two highest forwards at PK TOI/G). That PK time had to come from somewhere. Dats went from 1:13 shorthanded TOI/G in the regular season to more than double that at 2:47 TOI/G in the playoffs (Hank had a more reasonable increase from 1:04 in the regular season to 1:47 in the playoff but still a significant increase).


Oh god yeah. Dont let me forget all the penalties we took.....even if we had Helm and Eaves and Cleary at 100% those penalties were so unlike us and were basically shooting us in the foot.

Edited by number9, 11 May 2012 - 10:30 AM.


#64 Richdg

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:29 PM

Do you listen to the words coming out of your mouth? Our second best penalty killer being out is not, not a problem. You must not remember but Babs was PISSED that Holland didn't add anyone to the bottom 6 at the deadline. Pavs and Z typically only kill big penalties....like when were up by 1 in the 3rd. Eaves, Helm, Miller, Abby, and Cleary take the rest. You must not understand Hollands style either because he does not just add people willy nilly....He almost never makes lopsided trades or goes after guys unless there a perfect fit, contractually and athletically. On top of that he thinks 10 steps ahead....like trading away Commodore to keep roster spots open for Dekeyster or someone else...My guess as to why he didn't add anyone is because there's probably someone he wants who will be an FA soon or hes saving money to make a run at Parise or Suter or something. Again, he thinks 10 steps ahead....he doesn't want to win one cup now....he wants to win 3 in the next 10 seasons.

I have no idea why you are obsessing about space. I understand your logic and the space argument...space is important....but we get plenty of it. Our top 6 is not a problem (though I would like to see a pure sniper better than Hudler amongst them). Our top 6 had a much better scoring percentage going into the series than Nashvilles top 6 and they had plenty of space to work....we out shot them 160 to 116 over the series.


game 5 22-25 (SF/SA)
game 4 41-17
game 3 43-22
game 2 17-26
game 1 37-26

You sir need to go rewatch that series....yes it's painful cause we lost and I remember a few painful goofs we made....but overall we played pretty darn good series, we just got really unlucky at times. We couldnt get a good bounce to save our lives, Rinne played amazing while Howie was average, we had zero checking lines to create energy and no third scoring line...while they had 2 big checking lines and 1 of those lines could also score. And we had Dats and Z focused on defense cause Helm, Eaves, and Cleary couldnt be utilized.

Guys like Zetterberg and Franzen are some of the best playoff producers in the league....this just wasnt their year...you cant win em all. Sorry but it has nothing to do with space bud.



Oh god yeah. Dont let me forget all the penalties we took.....even if we had Helm and Eaves and Cleary at 100% those penalties were so unlike us and were basically shooting us in the foot.


Have you ever played the game? it is all about space and time. Space and time allows you to score. take away space and time and the other time doesn't score. yes we had shots. very few were quality shots. Most where the flip it at the net and hope type. Not quality scoring chances. Yes we spent a ton of time on the PK. That is what happens when you get out skated, which we were. Now all of our stars where out performed. All were healthy. This should be a big giant warning sign to you, and I hope Holland, which I beleive it is. As I quoted before, babcock said it best: "we are going in the wrong direction".

#65 number9

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:52 PM

I have no idea why you are obsessing about space. I understand your logic and the space argument...space is important....but we get plenty of it. Our top 6 is not a problem (though I would like to see a pure sniper better than Hudler amongst them). Our top 6 had a much better scoring percentage going into the series than Nashvilles top 6 and they had plenty of space to work....we out shot them 160 to 116 over the series.


u need to read if ur going to respond

Have you ever played the game? it is all about space and time. Space and time allows you to score. take away space and time and the other time doesn't score. yes we had shots. very few were quality shots. Most where the flip it at the net and hope type. Not quality scoring chances. Yes we spent a ton of time on the PK. That is what happens when you get out skated, which we were. Now all of our stars where out performed. All were healthy. This should be a big giant warning sign to you, and I hope Holland, which I beleive it is. As I quoted before, babcock said it best: "we are going in the wrong direction".


We had just as many quality scoring chances as they did. We are not even a shoot first team and we still out shot them lol. Glad you know how to play but you need to start watching too. Again, go back and watch the series....Rinne stood on his head. Howard didnt. They got some fluke goals. We got nothing but bad bounces. Sometimes things just dont go ur way, no need to panic and blow the team up lol.

Of course I agree with what babcock was sayng....but he wasnt referring to the top 6....hes made it very clear he wants the bottom 6 retooled....so yeah

#66 Richdg

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 03:05 PM

u need to read if ur going to respond



We had just as many quality scoring chances as they did. We are not even a shoot first team and we still out shot them lol. Glad you know how to play but you need to start watching too. Again, go back and watch the series....Rinne stood on his head. Howard didnt. They got some fluke goals. We got nothing but bad bounces. Sometimes things just dont go ur way, no need to panic and blow the team up lol.

Of course I agree with what babcock was sayng....but he wasnt referring to the top 6....hes made it very clear he wants the bottom 6 retooled....so yeah


1. I should ask if you or anyone else have played/coached etc...... doesn't belong here or any other forum. It in fact doesn't matter, becasue all we are doing is sharing opinions. If you were offended, I am sorry.

2. Would we like a team with 18 AS on it? yes we would. But would a guy like parise come here to play on the 3rd line? No. Nor would any other top player. Now why did I ask the question? You have to have a deep and balanced roster, I understand that. but you are not going to spend 5 million per year on 3rd line guys. In the SC era, you can't. So we are going to move our young guys that have just started their careers and we hope are our future? maybe. But I would bet good money that the 3rd and 4th lines this fall will be made up of guys on the roster. You can just about name who they are: helm, Abdelkater, Emmerton, maursk, Miller, Cleary (this is a demotion for him), Sheahan, eaves-if healthy, etc..... That is 8 right there. 8 roster spots, so works out nicely. Yes a guy like Jones could come in and help out. We agree on that. But even with him, that is not a major change. That will bring us back to the top 2 lines. In the end this is where the money is, the talent is/was, and the production needs to come from. Tech. all 6 spots are currently filled. Burt, franzen, Z, D, filppula, and Nyquist. I would love to upgrade over Nyquist and Filppula. Nyquist could slide down to the 3rd line, and open a spot. No problem. Now the debate and opinions begin. How do we fill the spot? What moves can be made via trade? Who is going to stand in front of the net? Who is going to make the other teams D pay in the corners? In the end, these are the questions. Keep in mind, the only trade options we have are franzen (no problem if he goes), Filppula-I hope he goes, and Z-last option unless it is a superstar.


3. The D is much easier to figure out. we will add 1 maybe 2 depending on what Lidstrom does. it really is that simple. The only real question is do we go all in on one guy-Suter? Or go for guys like Wideman (Rh shot), Garrison, and carle. Anyone of the 4 would be fine by me.

#67 Richdg

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 03:12 PM

One other thing to keep in mind. This year the FA class is not deep. Most of the talent-unless it gets resigned over the next 6 weeks is on the D. next years FA class-again as of today pending future signings is very strong with big young forwards. This will be a factor in what we do. There are several teams with 2+ big young star forwards hitting FA next season. Pitt-Crosby and Staal, the Ducks with Perry and getslaz (spelling) are 2 examples of this. They MAY-key word, not be able to keep both. Phones should be ringing....

#68 Dabura

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 04:24 PM

Eaves was out all year. He wasn't a problem being gone. If it really was a major issue Holland would have picked someone up at the deadline. he didn't. tells you all you need to know. As for Z and Datsyk, they kill penalties all year long. They have their entire careers. This is not a new thing. Yes having Helm might have added a goal or 2 from the bottom 2 lines. But guess what, he is coming back, so not an issue. The real issue remains the top 2 lines. franzen, Z and datsyk didn't score. neither did Burt or Franzen. Filppula never does. Hommer didn't. Hudler didn't. 2 of them are already gone. 2 can't be moved. One other issue that will be new for us this hear, is no front of the net guy anymore. Hommer-maybe the best ever at it is gone. Neither Franzen nor Burt are any good at it, nor is Parise btw. But all of those guys were healthy, and they didn't do their jobs. The part we don't know is, is this the new norm or just a one off thing? Go back and re=watch the palyoff series. Yes it is painfull....... But none of these guys could create any space to score. Without space, you don't have time. Without time, you rarely score.


Our postseason woes stem from a collection of interrelated problems. That was my main point.

Example: our forward corps.

The top two lines are for scoring. The bottom two lines are for everything else, e.g. wearing down the opposition through physical play. If the bottom 6 is struggling to get the job done, the top 6 will, in turn, struggle to get its job done. Babcock recently rated Helm as one of the league's best third-line centers. Do the math.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#69 Richdg

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:45 PM

Our postseason woes stem from a collection of interrelated problems. That was my main point.

Example: our forward corps.

The top two lines are for scoring. The bottom two lines are for everything else, e.g. wearing down the opposition through physical play. If the bottom 6 is struggling to get the job done, the top 6 will, in turn, struggle to get its job done. Babcock recently rated Helm as one of the league's best third-line centers. Do the math.



I agree, and our top 2 lines didn't score. It is the why that there is discusion. Where they tired? They were not hurt, so why? yes we can disagree on the reasons. BTW.... Z, Franzen, and Filppula are scoring at the WC's. Datsyuk is not. True, it has only been 4 games. But the others are all better than a point per game. Datsyuk has 1 point in 4 games.

#70 FlashyG

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 09:12 PM

I agree, and our top 2 lines didn't score. It is the why that there is discusion. Where they tired? They were not hurt, so why? yes we can disagree on the reasons. BTW.... Z, Franzen, and Filppula are scoring at the WC's. Datsyuk is not. True, it has only been 4 games. But the others are all better than a point per game. Datsyuk has 1 point in 4 games.


The top 2 lines accounted for 67% of our goals in the Nashville series. The bottom 6 and defence were why we lost that series.



#71 centcougar07

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 10:27 PM

Dude your either living in fantasy land or NHL12 lol....The Wings are a dignified, respectable, classy organization. And we got that way by letting our players retire as wings. We dont get nothing for that either...players like nick give us 20+ years of dedicated loyal service. What more do you want man!?!?!? and so will players like datsyuk and zetterberg and so on. They are not common whores that get traded away as soon as they turn 35.... They are Wings. They were born Wings and they will die Wings....Even at their ripe old ages they play a 360 degree game that most "proving themselves up and coming players" will never ever achieve or even dream of. We are one of the most respected and successful organizations in all of sports because we DONT do what you are talking about. Theres a reason why in the players poll the majority of players voted that the organization theyd most like to play for is Detroit...we turn boys into legends...put rings on their fingers...then retire them and give em a job behind the scenes...its been workin since 97 and we aint changin it now....remeber 2001, 2003, and 2006? OH NOOOO BLOW UP THE TEAM!!!!! WELL NEVER WIN AGAIN WITH THESE SHMUCKS!!!! (championship in 2002 and 2008).......if ur really so worried about our Vets (not sure ive ever been worried about veteran wings) and our future, then see: Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Jarnkrok, Sheahan, Mrazek, Andersson, Pulkkinen, Ouellet, Sproul, Tvrdon, Ferraro, Quine, Callahan, Marchenko.....need i say more? our farm is stacked and were almost ready to harvest again....no need to aquire the up and coming leinos and semins of the world. Hockey is different then NHL12 friend.

at this point id like to reiterate a previous posters statement....soooooo glad kenny is running this team


This made me LOL.

#72 Richdg

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 11:09 PM

The top 2 lines accounted for 67% of our goals in the Nashville series. The bottom 6 and defence were why we lost that series.




That is just laughable. Our top 6 forwards: datsyuk, Z, Franzen, Burt, Filppula, and Hudler had a grand total of 6 goals in 5 games. 6!!!!!! If that is the best those 6 are going to do we are screwed! Heck Hudler had 2 and Filppula had 2. So for the real big money guys: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Burt, and franzen it is even worse. Those 4 combined for 2 goals in 5 games. These are guys that should score about every 3rd game. In a 5 game series their career averages show they should have scored 8-10 goals as a group. This is why we lost. There is no debate about it.

Edited by Richdg, 11 May 2012 - 11:22 PM.


#73 FlashyG

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 12:02 AM

That is just laughable. Our top 6 forwards: datsyuk, Z, Franzen, Burt, Filppula, and Hudler had a grand total of 6 goals in 5 games. 6!!!!!! If that is the best those 6 are going to do we are screwed! Heck Hudler had 2 and Filppula had 2. So for the real big money guys: Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Burt, and franzen it is even worse. Those 4 combined for 2 goals in 5 games. These are guys that should score about every 3rd game. In a 5 game series their career averages show they should have scored 8-10 goals as a group. This is why we lost. There is no debate about it.



Could we have used more goals from the top 6?...sure, but it isn't why we lost.
You need more than your top 2 lines to win a playoff series as Nashville showed us. They got over 50% of their scoring from their bottom 6
The Wings scored 248 goals this year

132 came from the top 6 for 53%.of their goals
the defence contributed 49 for 20%
the bottom 6 kicked in 67 for 27%


In the playoffs

The top 6 accounted for 67% of scoring
The defence 11%
and the bottom 6 contributed 22%

.Nashville's bottom 6 shredded our bottom 6 both offensively and defensively, also the scoring from our defence disappeared. That is the reason we lost the series.

#74 Richdg

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 01:30 AM

Could we have used more goals from the top 6?...sure, but it isn't why we lost.
You need more than your top 2 lines to win a playoff series as Nashville showed us. They got over 50% of their scoring from their bottom 6
The Wings scored 248 goals this year

132 came from the top 6 for 53%.of their goals
the defence contributed 49 for 20%
the bottom 6 kicked in 67 for 27%


In the playoffs

The top 6 accounted for 67% of scoring
The defence 11%
and the bottom 6 contributed 22%

.Nashville's bottom 6 shredded our bottom 6 both offensively and defensively, also the scoring from our defence disappeared. That is the reason we lost the series.


Our top four, who make 20+ million collectively scored 2 freaking goals! Yes scoring in the playoffs is hard to do. But how does the series change if we have 5 more goals? just 5 and we win the series. Yes those goals could have come from many different sources. but if you really are a top player, amking top money, put the damn puck in the net! Who is supposed to lead the team? The guys making 1 million or less, or the guys making 6 million or more? datsyuk makes over 6 million and scored 0 goals. Burt makes 4 million scored 0 goals. Z makes over 6 million scored 1 goal. Franzen makes 4 million scored 1 goal. This is/was the problem. Now, the part we don't know, as I have said before, is this a trend or a one off? We don't know. They were all healthy. That we do know. This could be a huge problem. 4 guys, all signed for at least 2 more years to big money, that are not able to play like they are paid. 2 of them-datsyuk and Burt have no trade clauses.

BTW, 67% of zero is zero. So scoring 67% of the goals, when we didn't score isn't saying much. Yes I do expect big money to produce. Otherwise we are wasting money.

#75 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 05:08 AM

Bert made 4 mil last season? So what did Dats make? 14 mil?WE are wasting money are we? Funny how when I look at my bank account that I see no 60 mil money withdrawals to pay the Detroit Red Wings.

Edited by Hatethedrake!, 12 May 2012 - 05:09 AM.

Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#76 matemate

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:26 AM

Flippula - Datsyuk - Doan
Hudler - Zetterberg - Franzen
Cleary - Helm - Bertuzzi
Eaves - Abby - Miller



Lidstrom - White
Kronwall - Quincy
Ericsson - Smith

#77 number9

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 04:17 PM

This made me LOL.


..,.,.,.sureeeeeee well u wanna elaborate there buddy? cause its well known we have a plethora of great young prospects and many will be shooting for roster spots in the next 4 seasons....so i fail to see ur point....if u even had one

Could we have used more goals from the top 6?...sure, but it isn't why we lost.
You need more than your top 2 lines to win a playoff series as Nashville showed us. They got over 50% of their scoring from their bottom 6
The Wings scored 248 goals this year

132 came from the top 6 for 53%.of their goals
the defence contributed 49 for 20%
the bottom 6 kicked in 67 for 27%


In the playoffs

The top 6 accounted for 67% of scoring
The defence 11%
and the bottom 6 contributed 22%

.Nashville's bottom 6 shredded our bottom 6 both offensively and defensively, also the scoring from our defence disappeared. That is the reason we lost the series.


dont even bother....some wont ever get it

#78 55fan

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 07:51 PM

..,.,.,.sureeeeeee well u wanna elaborate there buddy? cause its well known we have a plethora of great young prospects and many will be shooting for roster spots in the next 4 seasons....so i fail to see ur point....if u even had one



dont even bother....some wont ever get it

ithoughtitwasfunnytocuzitssotruanditwasafunnyway2putit

#79 number9

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 09:59 AM

ithoughtitwasfunnytocuzitssotruanditwasafunnyway2putit


ahhhh hopefully i just read that wrong then!

#80 Crymson

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:40 PM

Eaves was out all year. He wasn't a problem being gone. If it really was a major issue Holland would have picked someone up at the deadline. he didn't. tells you all you need to know.


Eaves is an excellent penalty killer and a very good secondary scorer. His absence hurt. Why didn't Holland pick up somebody comparable at the deadline? Because nobody of the sort was available at any sort of reasonable price.

Neither Franzen nor Burt are any good at it


Franzen is excellent at deflecting pucks in front of the net. He is just rarely used in that role anymore.





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