29 replies to this topic

[blueadams]

If it wasn't already clear, I'd say it is now - our era of scouting dominance is over. And this is just one example (of many) of a team that's been scouting much, much better than us.





*New York Rangers Relevant Draft Picks Since 2004:

12 - Brian Mitchell (current 4th line center) acquired for a seventh round pick.

09 - #19 overall, Chris Kreider - Looks like a future NHL All-Star.

09 - Brian Boyle (current 3rd line center) acquired for a third round pick.

08 - #51 overall, Derek Stepan. - Second line center. Very productive player. Possible Team USA '14 member.

08 - #20 overall, Michael Del Zotto. - Future NHL ALl-Star (if he wasn't already?). Probable Team Canada '14 member.

07 - #168 overall, Carl Hagelin - First line winger. Very productive player. Possible Team Sweden '14 member.

06 - #54 overall, Artem Anisimov - Having a down year, but still a possible Team Russia '14 member.

05 - #40 overall, Michael Sauer - Hurt right now, but still a possible Team USA '14 member.

05 - #12 overall (high pick), Marc Staal - NHL All-Star, probable Team Canada '14 member.

04 - #127 overall, Ryan Callahan - Captain, Definite Team USA '14 member.

04 - #60 overall, Brandon Dubinsky - Hurt right now, but still a possible Team USA '14 member.

*Scouting Trades: all acquired in ROBBERY (trust me, robbery) player for player deals.
1) Ryan McDonagh (Future All-Star and possible Team USA '14 member)
2) Stu Bickel (current second-pairing defenseman)
3) Brandon Prust (current third line winger)
4) Steve Eminger (usually a third pairing defenseman, but hurt now)

*Scouting Signings: all acquired for next to nothing as free agents that the rest of the league didn't even pursue for the most part.
1) Dan Girardi(current first-pairing defenseman)
2) Ruslan Fedetenko (current third line winger)
3) Anton Stralman (current third-pairing defenseman)
4) Michael Rupp (current fourth line winger)
5) Mats Zuccarello (usually a bottom six forward, but hurt now)





...and what have we done in that time? In the first game of the Nashville series, only four members of our lineup had been acquired by way of the draft since '04:

1) Helm(05, 132nd overall)
2) Abdelkader(05, 42nd overall)
3) Franzen(04, 97th overall)
4) ***If you want to count him*** Quincey(12, 1st round)





not good.

Edited by blueadams, 15 May 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[Z and D for the C]

Maybe Brad Pitt and Jonah Hill are working for them.

[Hatethedrake!]

It also helps to have the best goalie in the NHL in net.

[rrasco]

It's worth mentioning we keep our guys in the minors much longer, preventing our lineup from being littered with draftees. Tatar, Nyquist, Shaehan, and Smith could all be lopped into that group, but because of the Red Wing way, they are only on the cusp of donning red full time.

[blueadams]

It also helps to have the best goalie in the NHL in net.

who they drafted 205th overall in 2000

[55fan]

Not sure who Jonah Hill is, but at the rate the kids are popping out of the woodwork, maybe they have Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie in the back room somewhere.

From the data above, it does indeed look like they are drafting well.

I'm not worried about it, though. Ours are still in the pipeline awaiting their turn.

"Older" guys like Ericsson, Howard, Flipper were part of the organization before your cutoff date, but are really still young guys.

I'm not taking anything away from the Rangers. They've done a great job. I'm just glad that we still have guys to bring up.

[Hatethedrake!]

who they drafted 205th overall in 2000

Who drafted Datsyuk and Zetterberg? Glen Sather? I think you should cheer for the Rangers. You seem to jumping on their bandwagon.

[blueadams]

Who drafted Datsyuk and Zetterberg? Glen Sather? I think you should cheer for the Rangers. You seem to jumping on their bandwagon.

I'm talking about recent drafting competence...and you're talking to me about a 33 year old veteran that's been in the league for going on 11 seasons.

[haroldsnepsts]

The Rangers have done a very good job drafting, though it's worth mentioning that a few of the picks on your list are lower than any Detroit has had during that time span.

The Wings earliest picks since 2005 are Kindl who was 19th overall, and admittedly has been a disappointment for that draft slot. Sheahan was 21st overall. Smith who's 21st overall, and McCollum who's 30th overall. 4 first round picks since 2005, and McCollum was the very last pick of the first round.

Kreider, Del Zotto and Staal are all very good players but were also earlier picks than the Wings have had (except Kindl and Kreider both being #19), so I don't really consider those as gems the Wings missed.

Kreider has played 13 games in the NHL and is doing well, but I think it's a bit premature to call him a future all star. But overall, I agree. The Rangers have done a helluva job with their picks.



In terms of the Wings drafting, it gets sketchier and sketchier the deeper you go in the draft and they have just not had early picks. And I think the days of finding late round gems in Europe may be gone, or at least harder to come by. The Wings were at the forefront of that, but other franchises have caught up.

It's why Kindl is such a disappointment to me. He's the best pick they've had in a long time and at 25 years old barely looks NHL ready.

who they drafted 205th overall in 2000

Wow. I never realized Henrik was drafted that late.

With their third pick that year the Wings took Stefan Liv. Talk about drafting the wrong Swedish goaltender. Ouch.

[St. Michael (the Red Wing)]

Rangers have done well yes but we have too. We draft different players though essentially and have completely different systems on bringing guys into the fold.

No reason to say the Rangers have done a better job than us.

Edited by St. Michael (the Red Wing), 15 May 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[blueadams]

The Rangers have done a very good job drafting, though it's worth mentioning that a few of the picks on your list are lower than any Detroit has had during that time span.

The Wings earliest picks since 2005 are Kindl who was 19th overall, and admittedly has been a disappointment for that draft slot. Sheahan was 21st overall. Smith who's 21st overall, and McCollum who's 30th overall. 4 first round picks since 2005, and McCollum was the very last pick of the first round.

Kreider, Del Zotto and Staal are all very good players but were also earlier picks than the Wings have had (except Kindl and Kreider both being #19), so I don't really consider those as gems the Wings missed.

Kreider has played 13 games in the NHL and is doing well, but I think it's a bit premature to call him a future all star. But overall, I agree. The Rangers have done a helluva job with their picks.



In terms of the Wings drafting, it gets sketchier and sketchier the deeper you go in the draft and they have just not had early picks. And I think the days of finding late round gems in Europe may be gone, or at least harder to come by. The Wings were at the forefront of that, but other franchises have caught up.

It's why Kindl is such a disappointment to me. He's the best pick they've had in a long time and at 25 years old barely looks NHL ready.


Wow. I never realized Henrik was drafted that late.

With their third pick that year the Wings took Stefan Liv. Talk about drafting the wrong Swedish goaltender. Ouch.

staal at 12 was really the only high pick.

delzotto went 20th
kreider 19th like you said.

[haroldsnepsts]

staal at 12 was really the only high pick.

delzotto went 20th
kreider 19th like you said.

Right. And my point was that since 2005 the Wings have had almost few picks close to 19th or 20th, with the exception of Kindl.

2006 41st overall - emmerton
2007 21st overall - Smith
2008 30th overall - McCollum
2009 32nd overall - Ferrarro
2010 21st overall - Sheahan
2011 35th overall - Jurco

It's not like they missed Del Zotto, Kreider and Stall those years. they never had a shot at them. The closest picks to those guys are Smith and Sheehan. Smith will be on the Wings next season and hopefully will impress. Sheahan remains to be seen.


But overall I agree, the Rangers have done a very good job with their picks.

[kipwinger]

I don't disagree that the Rangers have done a good job bringing in young guys, but I don't think that means they scout and draft better. They have had a younger team over the last few seasons and there has been room for young guys in their organization to move up. Not so with the Wings. The only guy we've drafted since 2006 who sees regular minutes is Emmerton and even he probably wouldn't have been in the lineup as much as we was if not for injuries. This is not to say that we're not playing guys because they're bad, we're not playing guys because in the recent past we've had a veteran team who was able to compete successfully each years, so why bring new guys in? We've got a ton of young talent waiting in the fold and over the next couple of seasons as our old guys retire you're going to see more and more of our picks from 2007-2012 coming into the NHL, while New York will have fewer picks breaking their lineup during the same time frame because there won't be any place for them. In the post cap era, these waves are going to happen because you can't constantly fills holes through free agency, we just happen to have a nearly full lineup after the cap while the Rangers didn't.

Edited by kipwinger, 15 May 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[blueadams]

I don't disagree that the Rangers have done a good job bringing in young guys, but I don't think that means they scout and draft better. They have had a younger team over the last few seasons and there has been room for young guys in their organization to move up. Not so with the Wings. The only guy we've drafted since 2006 who sees regular minutes is Emmerton and even he probably wouldn't have been in the lineup as much as we was if not for injuries. This is not to say that we're not playing guys because they're bad, we're not playing guys because in the recent past we've had a veteran team who was able to compete successfully each years, so why bring new guys in? We've got a ton of young talent waiting in the fold and over the next couple of seasons as our old guys retire you're going to see more and more of our picks from 2007-2012 coming into the NHL, while New York will have fewer picks breaking their lineup during the same time frame because there won't be any place for them. In the post cap era, these waves are going to happen because you can't constantly fills holes through free agency, we just happen to have a nearly full lineup after the cap while the Rangers didn't.

"We've got a stacked team so we just can't make room for all the great prospects we have. They suck, so they get to plug all those guys right in."

Dude. The Rangers. Their prospects are all on their team already (with a lot - maybe even more than us - still on the way). And they would just mop the floor with our current "stacked" squad that is so good room can't be made for "stud" prospects.

We've fallen behind the Rangers and others scouting wise. Hard to see it any other way.

[kipwinger]

"We've got a stacked team so we just can't make room for all the great prospects we have. They suck, so they get to plug all those guys right in."

Dude. The Rangers. Their prospects are all on their team already (with a lot - maybe even more than us - still on the way). And they would just mop the floor with our current "stacked" squad that is so good room can't be made for "stud" prospects.

We've fallen behind the Rangers and others scouting wise. Hard to see it any other way.

Reactionary much? I wasn't saying that we're better than the Rangers now. I was saying that we were MUCH better than the Rangers immediately after 2004 (the season you started keeping track of the Rangers Picks), and because of that our lineup has been set for a number of years. Therefore, guys drafted between 2006-2012 could not crack our lineup like they could for the Rangers. Obviously, those roles are reversed now, the Rangers are pretty much all set and we'll see a lot of turnover in the coming years so more of our young talent will start seeing NHL time.

I thought I had made that pretty clear in the first post, but thanks for giving me time to practice saying the same thing more than once.

Added Note: Weren't you the guy who started a thread about how Jarnkrok is good enough to be on the team, along with Tatar and Nyquist? Now add to them, Smith, Pullkinen, Jurco, Ouellet, and Mrazek and you've got a large chunk of our drafts between 2006-2012 who will probably all make the team and could potentially be game breakers. Why do you think they haven't played yet? Because they're not any good? Nope. There's no place to put them...or rather, there hasn't been any place to put them. Obviously that's changing.

Edited by kipwinger, 15 May 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[Crymson]

Sigh.

[chrisdetroit]

No. According to Hockeysfuture.com, the Rangers prospects are ranked #13 in the league, the Wings are #15. - not much difference.

[rrasco]

"We've got a stacked team so we just can't make room for all the great prospects we have. They suck, so they get to plug all those guys right in."

Dude. The Rangers. Their prospects are all on their team already (with a lot - maybe even more than us - still on the way). And they would just mop the floor with our current "stacked" squad that is so good room can't be made for "stud" prospects.

We've fallen behind the Rangers and others scouting wise. Hard to see it any other way.

They sure mopped us up in that 2-1 OT romping they gave us, with TPH and Jimmy out of the lineup.

[black]

Yeah, they've done a great job drafting and have a bunch of cups to back up the notion -- oh wait. Championships or nothing.

[number9]

Not sure who Jonah Hill is, but at the rate the kids are popping out of the woodwork, maybe they have Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie in the back room somewhere.

From the data above, it does indeed look like they are drafting well.

I'm not worried about it, though. Ours are still in the pipeline awaiting their turn.

"Older" guys like Ericsson, Howard, Flipper were part of the organization before your cutoff date, but are really still young guys.

I'm not taking anything away from the Rangers. They've done a great job. I'm just glad that we still have guys to bring up.

Jonah Hill and Brad Pitt were in the movie Money Ball together..... Got nominated for 6 Academy Awards

But yeah our drafting dominance is still very much in effect....our boys just spend more time in the minors than New York's....only real difference