2012 Lockout Watch

[frankgrimes 1,836]

I am not a fan of either side, I am a fan of the Detroit Red Wings. Having said that:

2005:

- owners got everything they wanted

- dwarf and the NHL celebrated like they've won

- they did design the deal

2012:

1. Now their own deal isn't good enough anymore? Seeks greed
   
2. Owners are the ones flying with around with their jets, copters or whatever to hand out 100 $ + contracts and now they are blaming the players for taking it? *rotfl*
   
3. You don't start negotiations in sour fate i.E. lowballing or insulting the other side
   
4. Dwarf needs to push for more revenue sharing to save face, otherwhise it would be even more obvious that his sunbelt expansion felt, despite maybe Tampa and San Jose
   
5. The NHLPA has a lot of smart guys Bergeron, Parros (Princeton degree) and Doan oh and of course Donald Fehr they are not going to roll over this time, why should they?
   
6. Players already stated their displeasure with the way the NHL is handeling this.
   

After everything to me it seems clear who to blame this time, last time I was more in favour with the owners but this time, its the NHLPA by a landslide. I think the owners are risking a huge gamble here just because the NHL came back stronger than ever doesn't mean it will again this time, because even to diehards it is so obvious whom to blame. You can't pose with record-numbers for years and then screaming "no you need to give us everything again, because we aren't making (enough) money".

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

NBC must have been thrilled when they read Uncle Gary's most recent "Lockout Manifesto".

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

You said...

"One aspect of the deal asks for limits on contracts, which is why I said MOST of their proposal doesn't address the loopholes."

So, you said these loopholes were going to remain open. You going to tell me how you know this? Maybe you will provide a link with information on the league proposal.

Re-read this part of your post several times. It's a perfect example of how you misrepresent what I've said.

I've even bolded the relevant sections. Go slowly, maybe you'll start to see it.

Let me also include this part of my last post that you chose to ignore. " I wasn't talking about where things will end up, but how the league chose to start the process."

Yet you want me to provide a link to prove a point I never made?

I agree that it was a lowball offer. So, if the NHLPA lowballs the league, you going to have the same harsh criticism for them? We will find out on Tuesday next week.

I think the same could be asked of you. The point is that both sides are posturing for what is going to be a fight. Who knows what the hell is going to happen. I am not going to side either one because no one knows what the heck is going to happen.

So, let me get this straight, you believe....

1. The league bargains from a position of strength while the NHLPA is weaker.

2. Because the league lowballed the NHLPA, that the league is totally in the wrong and not bargaining with good faith.

3. If a deal doesn't get done, its all on the league

4. Meanwhile, you are ok with assuming the NHLPA has been bargaining in good faith from the beginning. Making a deal requires no concessions on their part.

Yea, I think I got it.

Meanwhile, in reality....

1. The NHLPA and league are both equal in terms of pull. There are no replacement players, just as there are no replacement owners.

this is your opinion.

2. The NHLPA has yet to give them an offer. The question is, will you be as harsh if the NHLPA comes back with a lowball offer? To assume their offer will be fair is an assumption.

I never assumed their offer would be fair.

3. If a lockout ensues, both sides are to blame.

Likely, but not always true.

4. Both sides will have to concede things equally to get a deal done.

This is absolutely false. In no way do both sides have to concede equally to get a deal done. That's not what happened in the last CBA negotiations.

Don't get me wrong, you bring up great points when it comes to dancing around these key points. Like realignment, which I agree upon. I am not surprised it was shot down because the league did not involve the NHLPA. Could communication be better between them? Absolutely. That is the problem with these negotiations is that they waited until the final month to really get to work, to which I blame both sides for that nonsense.

If I have your positions wrong, please correct me and tell me your positions.

Of course you have my positions wrong. I've bolded your most obvious misrepresentations.

But that's the point of your game. You've continued to misrepresent my argument so you can dismiss and ridicule it, then go on to state your opinions as fact. I'm not sure if you lack basic reading comprehension or are just so eager to make a condescending reply that you're only skimming what I've written.

If you do actually ever want to know what I think, the posts are there for you to re-read at your leisure.

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

Whether we support the NHL or NHLPA, the only fact I know is that the Owners/Gm's are the one's responsible for signing players to BIG, LONG TERM contracts. Players/agents can push the limits but the one who signs the paychecks makes the final decision.

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26391

EXCERPTS FROM COMMISSIONER BETTMAN REMARKS - July 22, 2005

Is it just me or do I smell bulls*** in this article...

[vladdy16 2,154]

Yeah, Gary couldn't shovel that fast enough, could he?

I remember making a comment about redesigning the logo, something to the effect of "oh, yeah, that's what's wrong with the game. Fix that and it's all rainbows and puppies from here on out. The fans will come back in droves."

I only hope the league and the players decide not to spit in the fans' faces again and work this out in a mature, reasonable manner as expeditiously as possible.

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

Allan Walsh‏@walsha

Bettman on Thurs: "The owners' fundamental proposal relates to the fact that we need to be paying out less in player costs."

If that is the case then the HUGE contracts that the Wild and Preds paid out go against this and it was the OWNERS that APPOVED THESE CONTRACTS! You can't have your cake and eat it too OWNERS.

Allan Walsh‏@walsha

Bettman on Thurs: "Revenue sharing is not the key element of the negotiations for the League."

Really?? Are you serious??

Allan Walsh‏@walsha

Isn't it interesting how NHL owners believe in a free market when it comes to ticket prices but not when it comes to player salaries?

[Nightfall 871]

If you do actually ever want to know what I think, the posts are there for you to re-read at your leisure.

First off, I will admit that maybe I am reading too much into what you are trying to say. However, in the same sense, by not addressing it you are implying it. For instance, when you say that "these loopholes were not addressed" you are in essence saying that they are left open. Another thing you are doing is implying that you have read the league proposal. Once again I ask, have you? I certainly would like to know where you are getting your informaiton.

Secondly, we are both of different opinions on a couple key points. Your opinion is that the owners are the ones with all the leverage, whereas I believe both are equal. Since neither of us have data to backup our claims, it is what it is I suppose.

Third, I will agree with you that both sides don't always have to concede things to get a deal done. You are right in the last lockout, the owners got the best of them. This time around, I am sure, you will agree, is different. What will happen remains a mystery. I believe you will see more concessions this time around from both sides than you have in the past.

Lastly, by bolding the statements that I made, you are coming across as more of a moderate like myself. Its easy to blame Bettman and the owners. Its hard to look deeper at the situation and see a system that is broken. These two sides leaders are just dumb IMHO. The players and owners don't get together until 2 months before the season starts? No urgency from either one? The lack of communication between these two sides are just horrible. Yet, you and others here are quick to jump on the "blame the owners" bus. I haven't seen you, or others here who jump on the NHLPA bandwagon, levy a single constructive comment towards the NHLPA. Yet, you and others here have plenty of crap to say about the owners.

Ok, you are more of a moderate like I am. You want to see a deal get done as badly as I do. I guess when the NHLPA offer hits next week, and if its a lowball offer, we will see just how many people are riding the NHLPA bandwagon who claim to be moderates.

Both sides in this case are a bunch of morons for various reasons. Neither side is getting a pass from me, and if they strike, both sides are are fault.

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

http://espn.go.com/boston/nhl/story/_/id/8259499/boston-bruins-legend-bobby-orr-says-unfair-call-nhl-players-greedy-labor-dispute-owners

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

Bettman playing dirty.

http://m.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/bettman_playing_dirty_I72It2kiVeijZpbgII0lnN

[RyanBarnes! 293]

The owners and the players better get their act together real quick because in times of credit crunches and financial crisis the fans are going to have much less patience with billionaires fighting millionaires. There was a lot of talk last time around that the league could suffer greatly from fans losing interest after a lost season, well it didn't happen then, but this time I think the fans might take it personally. And why shouldn't they?? This is ridiculous!

Edited August 12, 2012 by RyanBarnes!

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

This is more a testament to how many mistakes the NHL made in expansion and how the owners are responsible for what they call the players making "too much money!" Up until a few weeks ago, the owners were still handing out $100 million dollar contracts. It the owners that are screwing each other, not the NHLPA. It reminds me of the savings and loan crisis in the U.S.....and this NHL situation would be akin to the savings and loans after collapsing or nearly collapsing, blaming the people they loaned the money to for the crisis they found themselves in. The eptitome of passing the buck for some serious mismanagement.

Maybe the U.S. and Canadian goverments can come to NHL owners aide too since they are in such finacial trouble. (Eye roll)

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Bettman playing dirty.

http://m.nypost.com/...iVeijZpbgII0lnN

The article is a bit melodramatic but touches on what I think is the big issue and why I can't believe how insane the NHL's first proposal is.

The NHL does not have a player cost problem. The NHL has a small-market revenue problem, one its initial parody of a collective bargaining proposal to the NHLPA doesn’t begin to address.

...

Eight years ago, the NHL mounted a massive public relations campaign to justify its reach into the players’ pockets, much of the appeal to the fans resting on a pledge that a hard cap would result in lower ticket prices.

There’s no such attempt this time around. The league isn’t even attempting to justify its position of demanding massive givebacks from the players in order to be allowed to play without interruption.

Everyone — and that includes Bettman, deputy commissioner Bill Daly, chief of staff Bob Batterman and the Board of Governors — knows the disparity of revenue between the powerhouse markets and the ne’er-do-wells is the critical issue confronting the NHL, but the powers that be either don’t have the imagination or foresight or the stomach or political capital to attend to it.

The section I bolded is the heart of it. Bettman is a patsy.

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

Winnipeg SUN  http://m.winnipegsun.com/2012/08/10/bettman-trying-for-lockout-hat-trick

Bettman going for the lockout hat trick.

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

That throwaway comment from 2004 about ticket prices is sure to come back and haunt the owners this time around.

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

Uncle Gary's mantra: "The fans be damned".

[drwscc 212]

Uncle Gary's mantra: "The fans be damned".

You mean the Board of Governor's mantra, right?

[Nightfall 871]

I am very eager to see what the NHLPA brings to the table on Tuesday. Its my hope that they are going to be reasonable and give a solid proposal. I have a feeling they are going to try to lowball the league, which would fulfill my expectations of two parties who don't want to work with each other.

[b.shanafan14 733]

I love NHL hockey. As much as we all ***** and moan, we love watching NHL hockey and we love watching our Red Wings; thus hundreds of us logging on to LGW during the dog days of summer to discuss ANYTHING.

That said, I'm honestly concerned about my own level of patience if we are subjected to another fiasco like 2004. Another season lost because of greedy owners who have made their beds with ballooned contracts and forcing failing markets, and yet refuse to sleep in them. If this season is in fact lost, Bettman and the Board of Governors will have averaged a work stoppage once every 6 1/3 years since 1993. That is unacceptable.

Another season lost, another year of Datsyuk and Zetterberg's careers down the tubes, might be just what it takes for many NHL/Red Wings fans not to come back.

[cusimano_brothers 1,655]

One more sleep.

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

Interesting that Bettman's salary has risen from less than $3M before 2004-05 lockout to approx $8M today.

[dirtydangles 1,328]

Interesting that Bettman's salary has risen from less than $3M before 2004-05 lockout to approx $8M today.

i wonder if he takes a hit to his salary like the players lol? his salary inflated even more than the players'.

P.S. who would have the power to remove Bettman from his position? A vote by the owners?

[Echolalia 2,961]

This whole "Bettman is the problem" thing is really getting out of hand. The guy is a slimeball, but let's give credit where it is due. Bettman is essentially employed by the owners of the teams in the NHL. It's his prerogative to make them happy, or he finds himself unemployed. All things considered, he has done an excellent job satisfying owners. The game has evolved and grown by leaps and bounds under his direction, and the owners overall have made great profits, despite everything the league has had going against it.

Bettman is the voice of the owners is the labor dispute. What they want is what he has to try to sell to the NHLPA and public. Bettman is not the devil whispering evils into the ears of the owners. Its actually the other way around. He's just the front man.

Edit: actually Bettman is in quite a tough pickle now that I think on it. The owners are asking for quite a lot and under the current environment are coming of as unrealistic and greedy. If Bettman can't achieve these extremely lofty and completely one-sided goals (ie owners win, players lose (again)), he may be out of a job. I'm not sure if it would come to that considering the profits that the league has earned in the past decade, but its certainly not an appealing situation to be in.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Echolalia

[Yevgeniy 0]

Here are some rumors http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/2012/08/13/grange_nhl_cba_negotiations/

[BostonBruinsDan1924 53]

2 things come to mind...

1. What I will find interesting is what will happen after this fiasco is resolved. Will the owners abide by their own concerns and be more fiscally responsible? Doubt it. Bettman doesn't sign the players to their contracts, the owners do, so we should be more upset with them then Bettman.

2. I wonder if there is any kind of 'Collusion' language in the NHL's past CBA's? Anyone know? If there is, I wonder if the players association could file suit if the Owners stop bidding or at least offering UFA's huge contracts?