905 replies to this topic

[Dabura]

I very much prefer the way Mr. Abramovich approaches ownership of a sports team. I believe Chelsea F.C. have not been profitable since Abramovich has acquired the team but it does not appear to bother him.

Every sports team owner needs a Dasha Zhukova.

[The Axe]

Every sports team owner needs a Dasha Zhukova.

Money Ball

[frankgrimes]

I still think a luxury tax system would be the best thing.
Why force owners to spend? If they don't want to fine, but don't cry foul if You aren't competitive. Same goes with owners who just spend senseless and then cry poor.
Players aren't at fault here they're just taking what owners are offering aren't they?

Sent from my BlackBerry

[cusimano_brothers]

Not all owners spend what they could be spending. They seem to be teams that are doing poorly in attendance.

[Nightfall]

Not all owners spend what they could be spending. They seem to be teams that are doing poorly in attendance.

Those teams doing poorly in attendance, and as a result not doing well money wise, shouldn't be forced to spend to a cap floor.

Edited by Nightfall, 26 August 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[haroldsnepsts]

Those teams doing poorly in attendance, and as a result not doing well money wise, shouldn't be forced to spend to a cap floor.

The thing is, I don't think Bettman even wants to get rid of the floor. In the NHL's proposal cap floor is lowered but in his quest for parity it seems like he doesn't trust all the owners to put a competitive team on the ice. And I'm guessing it has to do with revenue sharing too.

I honestly don't know if it's needed or not. In theory I could see how it would make a team spend the money to put a decent product on the ice. But it also seems to inflate salaries as a team under the floor overpays for a player or two to get up to the cap floor.

At the very least it should be lowered, but any new CBA would almost certainly have it lowered as they reduce the cap limit.

[Pskov Wings Fan]

Those teams doing poorly in attendance, and as a result not doing well money wise, shouldn't be forced to spend to a cap floor.

Teams have to ice NHL level lineup. If a team can't do that maybe it should not exist.

Edited by Pskov Wings Fan, 26 August 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[lfd250]

Fact is other then the people here, no body cares what the NHL is doing.  College football starts, NFL has started, and it's time for baseball to start the race to the playoffs.  There will be no uproar if it doesn't start on time.  And people will just think they are saving money because there's no games.  I love the game of hockey and will be back when they choose to start, but have always thought it was BS what the players make.  That goes for all sports.  Players are being paid what a small city could use for a police force.  And this is if they play or not.  The worse thing is, we will be stuck watching poker on TV all winter long.  I hope that some of the Wings still play in Michigan so we can watch them play.

[Pskov Wings Fan]

Fact is other then the people here, no body cares what the NHL is doing. College football starts, NFL has started, and it's time for baseball to start the race to the playoffs. There will be no uproar if it doesn't start on time. And people will just think they are saving money because there's no games. I love the game of hockey and will be back when they choose to start, but have always thought it was BS what the players make. That goes for all sports. Players are being paid what a small city could use for a police force. And this is if they play or not. The worse thing is, we will be stuck watching poker on TV all winter long. I hope that some of the Wings still play in Michigan so we can watch them play.

I do not have a problem with the money players are making. If large number of people is willing to pay to see you play hockey or dance or sing or anything else then you will make some money. I do not see anything wrong or unfair in this arrangement. This is a market in its rather basic and easily understandable form.

There are many other occupations where earnings are much more difficult to justify. Think the whole management chain of any large company, for example.

[Buppy]

Its quite obvious that the problem is two-fold. The first is the cap floor is too high. The second is the ownership can't budget or run a team. A combination of both is the real problem. I don't deny, in a perfect world, the current deal would work. This isn't a perfect world though. You point out specifics in your example that would be great in a perfect world, but the ownership in the NHL sucks a big one. Do i think the luxury tax system would work? I think it is worth investigating, because of the system in the MLB. You have rich teams and poor teams, and in the MLB there hasn't been a labor dispute in a long time. The small market teams can even compete in the MLB, and it has been determined that small market NHL teams can beat big market teams all the time.

Anyway, while you have the dumb ass owners who can't budget, you have smart owners who are forced to spend to the cap floor. The forced spend to the cap floor is a problem along with the ownership.

While you can keep repeating that the floor is a problem, that just doesn't seem to be true. We don't have all the numbers, but looking at the recent history, I'd be surprised if there aren't 24-28 teams that could afford the floor under the players' proposal. Some teams are always going to lose money. Every sport has some every year for the most part.

We shouldn't be worried about Phoenix or the Islanders. The bubble teams generally are teams that haven't performed well on the ice for at least several years. Many have never been good. Many are in small markets Most still should be able to turn marginal profit, or least keep the losses small. We shouldn't be overly worried over a few perennial losers in dubious markets suffering financially. The players have no say in how those teams are run or where they're located, they shouldn't have to suffer because of them.

I don't think baseball is a very good comparison. Even the "poor" teams make more than all but a few NHL teams, and most make substantially more than even the top NHL team. The tax threshold in baseball is $178M, and only a few teams have ever had to pay tax. The Yankees have payed the vast majority (95% according to Wikipedia). Only a few teams even come close, more than half the teams spend less than half the threshold. It's closer to an example of having no cap at all. I'd be all for removing the cap altogether, and letting the owners sink or swim on the merits of their own business acumen, and I'm sure the union would as well. But history says NHL owners can't be trusted to control themselves. Again, the players shouldn't be blamed for that.

[Nightfall]

The thing is, I don't think Bettman even wants to get rid of the floor. In the NHL's proposal cap floor is lowered but in his quest for parity it seems like he doesn't trust all the owners to put a competitive team on the ice. And I'm guessing it has to do with revenue sharing too.

I honestly don't know if it's needed or not. In theory I could see how it would make a team spend the money to put a decent product on the ice. But it also seems to inflate salaries as a team under the floor overpays for a player or two to get up to the cap floor.

At the very least it should be lowered, but any new CBA would almost certainly have it lowered as they reduce the cap limit.

You are correct, at least from what has been released so far. Bettman didn't mention the cap floor in his proposal. It could be in there, but lets assume he didn't mention it because its not an issue. He concentrated on rolling back salaries, limiting contracts, and getting rid of arbitration. Just further proof, as you and I have said about 10 pages ago, he doesn't recognize what the real problems are.

As has been demonstrated before, spending to the cap ceiling doesn't mean you are going to win a cup or even make the playoffs. We have small market teams beating big market teams all the time. The CBA that Bettman is proposing lowers the cap floor and ceiling for a few years with the rollback in salaries, but it doesn't address the long term health of the league. In 4 years, the owners will be in the same predicament that they are in right now. Just as the players proposal, while lowering salaries a couple percent for a few years, doesn't address the long term health of the league or teams in 3-4 years. Owners are going to be boneheads, and players will sign inflated contracts as a result.

IMHO, by eliminating the cap floor and imposing a luxury tax system, the small market teams will still be able to get players while the big market teams will share revenues with the small market ones. It works well in baseball, and should work well in hockey. Bettman obviously hates it, but I think Fehr would be a fan of it.

Teams have to ice NHL level lineup. If a teams can't do that maybe it should not exist.

Teams were icing NHL level lineups even before the salary cap era.

[BryceWings]

Hope they can work this out. Soon.

[cusimano_brothers]

Those teams doing poorly in attendance, and as a result not doing well money wise, shouldn't be forced to spend to a cap floor.

So, those owners are in the business for what, a tax right-off against their other business interests?

[haroldsnepsts]

So, those owners are in the business for what, a tax right-off against their other business interests?

I think that gets to the heart of it. With the floor they're trying to force owners to put together a competitive team and not just take revenue sharing while writing off the losses as they rake money in on their arenas.

Just because a franchise isn't profitable doesn't mean it can't be. Or that the owner's intent is to run a franchise in a way that appears profitable. It's one of owners many holdings. It's not necessarily in their best interest to look like they're turning a massive profit.

[Electrophile]

Teams have to ice NHL level lineup. If a teams can't do that maybe it should not exist.

There are several baseball teams that could stand to follow that same logic, too. So it's not just an issue in hockey. That's part of why I've always believed if you're going to install a salary cap, you need to also install a floor. Otherwise, if you tell teams you can only spend.....$90 million dollars (for example), unless you also tell them they have to spend at least 80% of that (for example), or $72 million, they'll spend the absolute bare-bones minimum they can get away with, and pocket the revenue sharing and write off losses, as Harold pointed out.

Off-topic, but doesn't the NFL have a salary floor of 80% of the cap?

[Buppy]

There are several baseball teams that could stand to follow that same logic, too. So it's not just an issue in hockey. That's part of why I've always believed if you're going to install a salary cap, you need to also install a floor. Otherwise, if you tell teams you can only spend.....$90 million dollars (for example), unless you also tell them they have to spend at least 80% of that (for example), or $72 million, they'll spend the absolute bare-bones minimum they can get away with, and pocket the revenue sharing and write off losses, as Harold pointed out.

Off-topic, but doesn't the NFL have a salary floor of 80% of the cap?

88.8% I believe.

Also note that the floor isn't just for parity. The players (in total) are guaranteed an exact percentage of all league HRR. The floor ensures each team contributes their fair share.

Edited by Buppy, 26 August 2012 - 03:56 PM.

[cusimano_brothers]

Back at it, this time in New York.

[Z Winged Dangler]

Back at it, this time in New York.

Maybe they'll keep more focus without Gary Bettman being close to shiny things in the HOF...

Oh wait....

Tuesday's meeting is cut short to 14 1/2 minutes. Gary Bettman is later found in Manhattan staring at the Statue of Liberty. This has been going on for 6 hours. Someone taps him on the shoulder and he comes out of his daze and blerts out LOCKOUT.

[haroldsnepsts]

The league presented a new proposal to the union today. hopefully this one is at least somewhat close to realistic.

Fehr said it's one they intend to respond to, but didn't get into details.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=403993

https://twitter.com/aaronward_nhl

[PROBIE4PREZ]

The league presented a new proposal to the union today. hopefully this one is at least somewhat close to realistic.

Fehr said it's one they intend to respond to, but didn't get into details.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=403993

https://twitter.com/aaronward_nhl

Just saw that on KK .. It's very uplifting to hear that to say the least.

oh yea in the words of the great Scotty Bowman ... "Is that f**king Aaron Ward out there?"

Edited by PROBIE4PREZ, 28 August 2012 - 06:53 PM.