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2012 Lockout Watch

cba lockout

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#661 Buppy

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:17 AM

Edmonton's situation is way off the norm. I'm assuming most of the bonuses were paid anyway. When you get into bonuses, it's really only on entry level contracts anyway. You can't not have potential bonsuses count because what if they hit the targets and get paid and then you are over? Point is, it is a pretty tough argument to suggest the floor isn't a problem because teams can simply get there by having bonsues count against the cap, which aren't actually paid.

You are correct, contracts can be backloaded such that a team pays way less then the cap hit in the early years and then trades the player (i.e. never having to pay the higher amounts). However, in reality, very, very, very few contracts are backloaded, it's quite the opposite.

Apparently you missed my post after the one you quoted, which detailed why I do not believe the floor is a problem. It has nothing to do with the ability to spend under the floor in real dollars. I just mention that it is possible to do so because, well, it is. It would be stupid to ignore that fact.

Right now, 18 teams have salary commitments lower than their total cap amount. 15 of them would still be lower even if they pay all their potential bonuses. But again, the numbers we have suggest that most teams should be able to afford the floor regardless.

#662 Nightfall

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 10:37 AM

Some owners are just a bunch of greedy liars crying poor on one side but giving out contracts which they fully know are too much for them. And then they are going to the dwarf calling for more revenue sharing and salary rollbacks. The truth is they want to cry poor, spend as less as possible but still be competitive on a nightly basis which just is paradox.

I'd rather have a 5, 10 or 15 teams league instead of an overblown NHL in questionable markets.

I am in total agreement with you. The owners really want to bring a championship to their city and team though. There are 20 such owners that want to do that right now. So many of them write checks their franchises can't cash, and they cry foul when they have to cash in on revenue sharing. Actually, the rich franchises are the ones crying foul as well because these owners are spending foolishly. If I was a owner in a struggling market, such as Florida, I would find it hard to spend foolishly. My fans would be disappointed because we aren't a top tier team, but we wouldn't be spending money we don't have.
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#663 dirtydangles

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:03 PM

This would never happen, but what do you think would happen if the players agreed to the nhl's latest offer but included that Gary Bettman would have to be replaced as commissioner? Would the owners bite, and what would Bettman do, if anything to save his job?

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#664 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:47 PM

The owners just had there chance to oust him from the job. The owners "love" the job he's doing.

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#665 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:53 PM

I think its equally telling just how much NHLPA ass you are willing to kiss by only focusing on the faults of the owners while ignoring the faults of the NHLPA. I don't think I need to keep repeating over and over again how much the owners proposal sucked a big one. Just like I don't need you to keep reiterating over and over again about how much the league could bend a bit more. I mean, we had this discussion back about 15 pages ago. You had some constructive comments to give to the NHLPA, and I have been saying all along that the owners proposal sucked a big one. I don't think we need to drag each side through the mud anymore than they already have.

Do we really need to hear each other say the negative things about each side in order to agree that both sides really have not budged very much?

I haven't done either of those, but keep trying. The difference is one side has not budged much from its insane proposal, while the other has not budged much from its pretty rational starting point for negotiating.

The reason this is more the fault of the owners and Bettman is very simple. Revenue is up 50% in the 7 years under the CBA. The league has over a billion dollars more in revenue than it did at the start of the CBA. A BILLION DOLLARS. The problem is that rich have gotten richer while other franchises struggle. The biggest problem facing the league is clearly the financial disparity among franchises, not player salaries.

The owners solution to that problem is to take more money from the players. That is no long term solution. It is an uncompromising money grabbing strategy that relies on the players union crumbling once again and conceding virtually everything. For that strategy to be effective requires a lockout to break the players will.

In other words, the league's strategy from day one was built on implementing a lockout.

So while they players haven't come far off their stance, there's still the underlying issue of ownership not even acknowledging that their assessment and proposed solution for the league is a fantasy. That's where Bettman should come in as the voice of reason, diplomat, and steward of the league. He isn't. I don't know if it's his strategy or if he's just parroting what ownership wants, but he seems more intent on breaking the union than on preserving hockey and the long term health of the league.

We all can pretty much agree on what the general solution is, plus or minus a few details. The players salary does need to come down a few percentage points, the league needs to increase revenue sharing to struggling franchises, and add some limits to contract lengths and how they're calculated against the cap. Those will all help the smaller franchises compete with the ones flush with cash.

The NHLPA's proposal was a starting point in that world. The NHL and Bettman in particular, however, have not joined the rest of us in the real world.

#666 Jedi

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 12:56 PM

I haven't done either of those, but keep trying. The difference is one side has not budged much from its insane proposal, while the other has not budged much from its pretty rational starting point for negotiating.

The reason this is more the fault of the owners and Bettman is very simple. Revenue is up 50% in the 7 years under the CBA. The league has over a billion dollars more in revenue than it did at the start of the CBA. A BILLION DOLLARS. The problem is that rich have gotten richer while other franchises struggle. The biggest problem facing the league is clearly the financial disparity among franchises, not player salaries.

The owners solution to that problem is to take more money from the players. That is no long term solution. It is an uncompromising money grabbing strategy that relies on the players union crumbling once again and conceding virtually everything. For that strategy to be effective requires a lockout to break the players will.

In other words, the league's strategy from day one was built on implementing a lockout.

So while they players haven't come far off their stance, there's still the underlying issue of ownership not even acknowledging that their assessment and proposed solution for the league is a fantasy. That's where Bettman should come in as the voice of reason, diplomat, and steward of the league. He isn't. I don't know if it's his strategy or if he's just parroting what ownership wants, but he seems more intent on breaking the union than on preserving hockey and the long term health of the league.

We all can pretty much agree on what the general solution is, plus or minus a few details. The players salary does need to come down a few percentage points, the league needs to increase revenue sharing to struggling franchises, and add some limits to contract lengths and how they're calculated against the cap. Those will all help the smaller franchises compete with the ones flush with cash.

The NHLPA's proposal was a starting point in that world. The NHL and Bettman in particular, however, have not joined the rest of us in the real world.


Pretty much my thoughts exactly. And put to words better than I could have done.

Per Ansar Khan...

Wings' union rep Niklas Kronwall said 13 players from team, so far, will go to NY for NHLPA meetings Wed. and Thurs.


Only an NHLPA meeting though. No word on Red Wings' player participation in any upcoming League/PA meetings.

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is a fearsome king with a deep mighty voice, least, that's what I've come to understand.

And I've also heard it told, that he's something to behold, like a lobster, huge and red!

When he sets out to slay with his rain gear on, carting bulging sacks with his big great arms, that is so I've heard it said.

And on a dark cold night, under full moon light, he flies into a fog like a vulture in the sky!

And they call him Sandy Claws!


#667 frankgrimes

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:00 PM

I am in total agreement with you. The owners really want to bring a championship to their city and team though. There are 20 such owners that want to do that right now. So many of them write checks their franchises can't cash, and they cry foul when they have to cash in on revenue sharing. Actually, the rich franchises are the ones crying foul as well because these owners are spending foolishly. If I was a owner in a struggling market, such as Florida, I would find it hard to spend foolishly. My fans would be disappointed because we aren't a top tier team, but we wouldn't be spending money we don't have.


Good point. I mean you don't have to look further than Nashville, they aare a small market team but are doing quiete well in fact they are doing so well they can pay 27 million for one season to mr. Weber. So the system can't be as broken as the dwarf is thinking. Florida on the other hand has been spending crazy money to average at best players just to reach the cap floor, so again they can't cry foul.

My biggest beef with this whole t hing is how the NHL is trying to portray the PA as the bad guys here, when in fact the owners are the ones who can't control themselves.

This would never happen, but what do you think would happen if the players agreed to the nhl's latest offer but included that Gary Bettman would have to be replaced as commissioner? Would the owners bite, and what would Bettman do, if anything to save his job?


It really is an idea I have been thinking since the whole process started and the NHL proposed their insulting offer. Definately something the PA should be shooting for like

Ok you want us to give back again? Fine, we are going from 57 to 55 (just a number), increase UFA by 1 year but you need to replace the commissioner we are not going to fourth lockout with this guy. Deal?`ok lets sign :-)

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#668 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:02 PM

The owners = "management".
The players = "workers".
Is the choice of a side really that difficult to make?
Six years isn't very long.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#669 Ally

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:15 PM

Where are the fans being mentioned in these negotiations? Nowhere? Oh, ok.
At least the last lockout we could entertain the idea that with the new agreement would come lower ticket prices. At least throwing out empty promises showed that the fans were on their minds for half a second.

 
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#670 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:19 PM

Where are the fans being mentioned in these negotiations? Nowhere? Oh, ok.
At least the last lockout we could entertain the idea that with the new agreement would come lower ticket prices. At least throwing out empty promises showed that the fans were on their minds for half a second.

That's not true. In spite of having to put up with yet another lockout, Bettman said we'd come crawling back again because we're the worlds greatest fans, remember?

#671 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:20 PM

From TSN:

NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly says the owners and players are both to blame for their failure to reach a new collective bargaining agreement before the Saturday deadline for a work stoppage.


Daly wrote in an email to The Associated Press that he hoped both sides would meet before Saturday.

"But to this point, we have received no indication that the union has anything new to say to us. And right now, we have nothing new to say to them," he wrote Tuesday. "It's unfortunate, but it's the reality of the situation."




Ahhhhh, what?

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

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#672 Nightfall

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:27 PM

The NHLPA's proposal was a starting point in that world. The NHL and Bettman in particular, however, have not joined the rest of us in the real world.

Once again, you and I are in agreement. The key points are that neither side as budged from their proposals. I have given the NHLPA props for having a proposal set more in reality than the NHL proposal. Not budging from your stance is not the way to negotiate a CBA though. There needs to be less rigidity and more flexibility. It is that simple.
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#673 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 01:29 PM

I want to kidnap them all, lock them in a room together with no food, water, or bathrooms, and place armed guards outside the door with instructions to not let anyone in or out until a signed CBA is in place. Every four hours a rabid skunk will be let into the room. Every 6 hours Celine Dion will serenade them with "My Heart Will Go On. " Every 8 hours they will have to watch "The Miracle of Birth. " Every 10 hours they will have to eat haggis.

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#674 dirtydangles

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:23 PM

I want to kidnap them all, lock them in a room together with no food, water, or bathrooms, and place armed guards outside the door with instructions to not let anyone in or out until a signed CBA is in place. Every four hours a rabid skunk will be let into the room. Every 6 hours Celine Dion will serenade them with "My Heart Will Go On. " Every 8 hours they will have to watch "The Miracle of Birth. " Every 10 hours they will have to eat haggis.

bettman would convert into some disgusting beast and eat everyone.

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#675 Ally

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 02:34 PM

That's not true. In spite of having to put up with yet another lockout, Bettman said we'd come crawling back again because we're the worlds greatest fans, remember?


Whoops, forgot about that.
Here's another idea guys...we kidnap Sid and hold him hostage until Bettman agrees to stop the lockout nonsense/retire. Who's in?

 
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#676 Johnz96

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:33 PM

The owners just had there chance to oust him from the job. The owners "love" the job he's doing.

He is doing such a great job that they are threatening a 3rd lockout under his regime something that has never happened before Bettman

#677 Johnz96

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 03:43 PM

The players proposal calls for a 3 year plan. The first year they decrease their share of the profits to 53%, then it goes up to 55% the next year, and up to 57% in the 3rd year. So, in short, the players proposal calls for no changes to the existing system, and the league would be right back where it started 3 years ago. So, how is that not understanding what the players are proposing? How are you not surprised that the league didn't accept this proposal?

http://www.vancouver...2488/story.html

Once again I will say this, the people who are solely behind the players and blaming the league are uninformed and ignorant. Those people do not understand what the players proposed and the ramifications behind the proposal. The players proposal is not a silver bullet that solves all the issues, contrary to what you believe.

The Suter and Parise UFA signing is a perfect example of why there is a threat of a lockout this season. The owners had a bidding war for them, they offered them the contracts they got. Of course they will take the most money offered, most people would. The owners give out these offers and then punish the players and fans by reneging on their offers by demanding they take a pay cut or lock them (and us) out for their stupidity.

Edited by Johnz96, 11 September 2012 - 03:44 PM.


#678 Dabura

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 04:06 PM

Hang the DJ, hang the DJ, hang the DJ

Don't Toews me, bro!


#679 sleepwalker

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:07 PM

A bit off topic, but...

What does THN do when there is a lockout? Last lockout I was moving around a lot so didn't have a subscription, but now I do.

Do they shift their coverage to the minor leagues? Or keep doing all the "gear buyers guide" crap they do during the summer? Do they just keep speculating on the possible end of the lockout over and over in each issue?

#680 Nightfall

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Posted 11 September 2012 - 05:53 PM

A bit off topic, but...

What does THN do when there is a lockout? Last lockout I was moving around a lot so didn't have a subscription, but now I do.

Do they shift their coverage to the minor leagues? Or keep doing all the "gear buyers guide" crap they do during the summer? Do they just keep speculating on the possible end of the lockout over and over in each issue?

Last time around, they cut the subscription down to once a month in order to save everyone on the cost of printing the magazine. That worked very well. :)
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