905 replies to this topic

[cusimano_brothers]

Uncle Gary says: "Before you start, the answer is 'no'".

[Nightfall]

A bit more? LOL

The ownership has offered pretty much no compromise whatsoever, and has made it clear that they don't intend to either. Either the players cave and give in to all their demands, or they will stay locked out.

The players have offered nothing of great note either, which is disturbing. After Fehr's first proposal, I was hoping he would rise to the occasion and at least put forward an offer that would at least offer some concessions. So far, he hasn't. The owners haven't come down from their unrealistic proposal either. I can't blame one side for this debacle without looking at the other side as well. The actions of both sides are causing this to happen. If neither side is interested in really negotiating, how can they negotiate a CBA?

Edited by Nightfall, 12 September 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[cusimano_brothers]

Who cried "lockout" first?

[55fan]

Who cried "lockout" first?

Only Count von Bettman can cry "Lockout". Fehr would be crying "Strike". Unless I've missed footage of Fehr bowling, officiating a baseball game, or tracking a missile, that hasn't happened. The players were willing to go ahead another year under the current CBA.

[sleepwalker]

The players have offered nothing of great note either, which is disturbing. After Fehr's first proposal, I was hoping he would rise to the occasion and at least put forward an offer that would at least offer some concessions.

They have already offered concessions. The owners have not, and literally can not offer any consession, because of they did, it would give the players MORE than 57% and/or reverse a lot of the last CBA. The GMs want more money, more power, more control. Thats pretty much it.

I, as well as most people were on the GMs side last time. And they won and cheered about how they got every single thing they wanted and the league would be all good now. And now here they are, with record profits, demanding even more. (not asking, or attempting to negotiate, demanding)

The players counter proposal to the owners ridiculous (I'm sure even you can admit that) original proposal did offer some consessions. The GMs refused it immediately. Then came back with their counter proposal that only a complete moron couldn't see was pretty much exactly the same as the first, just reworded, with some numbers shuffled around. Which is so completely insulting, I don't even know what to say about it. It is pretty much the GMs saying "we are banking on the fact that you are total retards who won't notice this is the same as our first proposal and agree to it"

Edited by sleepwalker, 12 September 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[haroldsnepsts]

Yeah, I know that every person that states they'll cancel won't do it, but I feel like a good portion will. There have been several petitions signed to not go to games or buy merchandise in the event of a lockout. One of the petitions I saw online yesterday had 20,000 signatures. Of that, I'd say at least 10,000 are serious about it. The dollars lost adds up quick.

I think more than an online petition, if you want to be heard it's probably more effective to write to the Red Wings organization directly and spell out all the money you've spent in the past and all the money you will no longer be spending on the NHL. You could copy the NHL on it, if they have any sort of address where they can actually hear from fans.

It's still mostly of a symbolic gesture, but I think is more likely to be heard and taken seriously than an online petition. Then the key of course is for everyone to follow up on it and cancel tickets and not spend the money.

[Nightfall]

They have already offered concessions. The owners have not, and literally can not offer any consession, because of they did, it would give the players MORE than 57% and/or reverse a lot of the last CBA. The GMs want more money, more power, more control. Thats pretty much it.

Concessions go far beyond money. The percentage the players are getting is just one portion.

Why not offer the NHLPA expanded revenue sharing along with the final $5 million dollars in the cap system a luxury tax?
Why not offer the NHLPA arbitration, signing bonuses, and no cap on salaries?

Those are just a couple examples, but so far, they haven't offered any concessions.

Just as the NHLPA hasn't offered any real concessions either.

Why not offer the NHL a 52-48 hard linkage in favor of the players?
Why not offer the NHL a entry level contract cap to 3-4 years?
Why not offer the NHL a cap on over contract length to 7 or 8 years?

From the way it looks, both sides are demanding. The owners are demanding that the players take the salary cuts, the contract limits, no arbitration, and so on. That is wrong. The players are demanding that things stay the same or the hard linkage goes down to 53% for year one and moves back up to 57% in year 3 with a 4th year player option at the same level. How does a temporary change fix this problem? It doesn't. While the player offer was less draconian, its still not the solution.

Whats worse is that both sides are posturing and being inflexible.

As a fan, I find it disgusting. Just get in the room and work on the deal.

I think more than an online petition, if you want to be heard it's probably more effective to write to the Red Wings organization directly and spell out all the money you've spent in the past and all the money you will no longer be spending on the NHL. You could copy the NHL on it, if they have any sort of address where they can actually hear from fans.

It's still mostly of a symbolic gesture, but I think is more likely to be heard and taken seriously than an online petition. Then the key of course is for everyone to follow up on it and cancel tickets and not spend the money.

I will be doing this when the lockout is announced on Saturday.

[Nightfall]

Only Count von Bettman can cry "Lockout". Fehr would be crying "Strike". Unless I've missed footage of Fehr bowling, officiating a baseball game, or tracking a missile, that hasn't happened. The players were willing to go ahead another year under the current CBA.

Of course they are willing to go another year under the current CBA. The current CBA benefits the players and lucrative franchises. If you had 17-18 owners that weren't greedy asses, then the current CBA would be fine. Instead, you have the opposite.

[haroldsnepsts]

Concessions go far beyond money. The percentage the players are getting is just one portion.

Why not offer the NHLPA expanded revenue sharing along with the final $5 million dollars in the cap system a luxury tax?
Why not offer the NHLPA arbitration, signing bonuses, and no cap on salaries?

Those are just a couple examples, but so far, they haven't offered any concessions.

Just as the NHLPA hasn't offered any real concessions either.

Why not offer the NHL a 52-48 hard linkage in favor of the players?
Why not offer the NHL a entry level contract cap to 3-4 years?
Why not offer the NHL a cap on over contract length to 7 or 8 years?

From the way it looks, both sides are demanding. The owners are demanding that the players take the salary cuts, the contract limits, no arbitration, and so on. That is wrong. The players are demanding that things stay the same or the hard linkage goes down to 53% for year one and moves back up to 57% in year 3 with a 4th year player option at the same level. How does a temporary change fix this problem? It doesn't. While the player offer was less draconian, its still not the solution.

Whats worse is that both sides are posturing and being inflexible.

As a fan, I find it disgusting. Just get in the room and work on the deal.


I will be doing this when the lockout is announced on Saturday.

Relative to what the owners first proposal was, the union's first proposal should have been the elimination of a salary cap. Their first offer already was a large concession.

It boggles the mind that in spite of making over a billion dollars more revenue in 7years, that ownership thinks this is the solution to the league's issues. Revenue has increased 50% in seven years! How many industries see that kind of growth??

While the union's proposal certainly isn't an end point for the CBA, it's based on the idea that the league will continue to make money, increase revenue and be successful, which is what Gary has been telling us for 7 years and what has happened for 7 years. What ownership is trying to sell fans on is that in spite of a 50% increase in revenue in 7 years, the players need to make massive concessions on salaries and contracts in order for franchises to be successful. That's bulls***.

[Shoreline]

The players are guilty of being greedy in their own right, but I can't be more upset with them than I am with the league.

This league got what it wanted with the cap and player reduction of salaries, saving owners and the league liability of writing out and signing contracts they can't maintain. Now things have come full circle.. once again. I gave the league the benefit of the doubt in the first lockout I was involved in, in the mid 90s, and again following the loss of a full season last decade, but that's all gone now.

The fact that the PA and NHL haven't met for s*** over the last year or so, then haven't really met in the last two weeks before this, shows me they aren't serious. The fact that the league yesterday set a press conference to be held to announce the lockout later this week/weekend well ahead of this meeting with the PA shows how much pointless window dressing facade garbage this meeting is, and that neither side are serious about getting this done for the one forgotten aspect of this lockout hurt the most by this -- the fans and those employed by the league. The league isn't concerned about fans at all, and for that, I lack concern for the NHL and when they finally decide to bring back their league from this bulls***. In all likelihood, I won't watch the NHL for a long time, if ever again, and certainly won't be spending a penny of my own money buying merchandise. There's no sense of being a fan of a league that so frequently, along with it's players association, gives us the finger.

This likely lockout is also by the same odds a long goodbye from the forums as my disgust with the NHL has my interest virtually zero, which is why I haven't discussed hockey much at all over the last several months. I still hold out hoping some miracle will happen, but both the league and PA already have a pre-emptive intent on going through with the lockout so here's my pre-emptive post walking out on the NHL and related forums.

Edited by Shoreline, 12 September 2012 - 12:59 PM.

[Nightfall]

Relative to what the owners first proposal was, the union's first proposal should have been the elimination of a salary cap. Their first offer already was a large concession.

It boggles the mind that in spite of making over a billion dollars more revenue in 7years, that ownership thinks this is the solution to the league's issues. Revenue has increased 50% in seven years! How many industries see that kind of growth??

While the union's proposal certainly isn't an end point for the CBA, it's based on the idea that the league will continue to make money, increase revenue and be successful, which is what Gary has been telling us for 7 years and what has happened for 7 years. What ownership is trying to sell fans on is that in spite of a 50% increase in revenue in 7 years, the players need to make massive concessions on salaries and contracts in order for franchises to be successful. That's bulls***.

I don't agree that the NHLPA gave a proposal that could be considered to be a "large concession". That concession was just a temporary cut in salary linkage for 2 years and thats it, with levels being where they are today with a player option for the next year. I would call it a "slight concession" at best.

Otherwise, I do agree with you. The greed coming from the NHL is disgusting. The lack of negotiating and flexibility from both sides is disgusting as well though.

[F.Michael]

The players are guilty of being greedy in their own right, but I can't be more upset with them than I am with the league.

This league got what it wanted with the cap and player reduction of salaries, saving owners and the league liability of writing out and signing contracts they can't maintain. Now things have come full circle.. once again. I gave the league the benefit of the doubt in the first lockout I was involved in, in the mid 90s, and again following the loss of a full season last decade, but that's all gone now.

The fact that the PA and NHL haven't met for s*** over the last year or so, then haven't really met in the last two weeks before this, shows me they aren't serious. The fact that the league yesterday set a press conference to be held to announce the lockout later this week/weekend well ahead of this meeting with the PA shows how much pointless window dressing facade garbage this meeting is, and that neither side are serious about getting this done for the one forgotten aspect of this lockout hurt the most by this -- the fans and those employed by the league. The league isn't concerned about fans at all, and for that, I lack concern for the NHL and when they finally decide to bring back their league from this bulls***. In all likelihood, I won't watch the NHL for a long time, if ever again, and certainly won't be spending a penny of my own money buying merchandise. There's no sense of being a fan of a league that so frequently, along with it's players association, gives us the finger.

This likely lockout is also by the same odds a long goodbye from the forums as my disgust with the NHL has my interest virtually zero, which is why I haven't discussed hockey much at all over the last several months. I still hold out hoping some miracle will happen, but both the league and PA already have a pre-emptive intent on going through with the lockout so here's my pre-emptive post walking out on the NHL and related forums.

Nice to see you're still alive

Besides...You have the luxury of a OHL team to watch; from what I've seen on the NHL Network - the Major Jr hockey in your neck of the woods is really good.

[sleepwalker]

If anything, what happened at the last CBA, and what is happening now as a direct result should teach everyone a big lesson about negotiating.

You should NEVER cave in to all the other sides demands, regardless of what your reasoning is. Thats what the players did last time, and that being the case, now the league expects nothing less this time and the will straight out refuse to budge. When you give in to all of the other sides demands, you essentially set a precedent.

Unfortunately, I can see the players eventually caving in again like they did last time, because the owners and the NHL don't give a f*** now that they already know the players caved in to all their demands last time. They'll keep them locked out for years of thats what it takes to "win". They are all billionaires and have other sources of income in the mean time.

As has been pointed out many times already, this should have been the easiest CBA ever since the NHL got everything they wanted last time. BUT, since they got the world last time, and that precedent was set, they expect nothing less than the same this time.

Edited by sleepwalker, 12 September 2012 - 01:16 PM.

[WizardOfOz30]

He's not an outside party, but that role is supposed to be Bettman's. Yes he is ultimately hired by the ownership but he is also supposed to be a steward of the league and operate in its best overall interests, not just act as a patsy for the owners. It's been mentioned in the press several times that he has a lot of latitude and authority from ownership in these negotations.

Obviously 30 different owners have varying interests. His job shouldn't be merely to galvanize them against the players union, but also to convince them to move in ways that help the overall league, not just their particular franchise.

That is the problem, he is not an objective 3rd party. If he's going to continue to be part of the problem he needs to go. I understand this is a business and he's trying to do what's best for it, but you can't make any money when you are locking out your players. Seems like they are making an effort but the NHL is not budging, it doesn't work that way...

[Johnz96]

The players have offered nothing of great note either, which is disturbing. After Fehr's first proposal, I was hoping he would rise to the occasion and at least put forward an offer that would at least offer some concessions. So far, he hasn't. The owners haven't come down from their unrealistic proposal either. I can't blame one side for this debacle without looking at the other side as well. The actions of both sides are causing this to happen. If neither side is interested in really negotiating, how can they negotiate a CBA?

Of more than 600 players only 15 make as much as Bettman.
The Suter and Parise UFA signing is a perfect example of why there is a threat of a lockout this season. the owners had a bidding war for them, they offered them the contracts they got. Of course they will take the most money offered, most people would. The owners give out these offers and then punish the players and fans by reneging on their offers by demanding they take a pay cut or lock them (and us) out for their own stupidity.

Edited by Johnz96, 12 September 2012 - 01:28 PM.

[Ally]

I'll still support the NHL after this. Still gonna buy merchandise, try to see games, pay for center ice. Being mad at the league as a whole hasn't clouded my memory enough to forget that I love hockey a lot.
Hockey fans spend a lot of time saying "i'll stop watching if _______ occurs" but I won't ever actually stop until the game stops being exciting for me (so I'll be around at least as long as Datsyuk plays)
When hockey is back, I'll be waiting...if not impatiently

[Johnz96]

Don't spend money on the NHL till he is gone. He is the worst thing to ever happen to the game of hockey

I'll still support the NHL after this. Still gonna buy merchandise, try to see games, pay for center ice. Being mad at the league as a whole hasn't clouded my memory enough to forget that I love hockey a lot.
Hockey fans spend a lot of time saying "i'll stop watching if _______ occurs" but I won't ever actually stop until the game stops being exciting for me (so I'll be around at least as long as Datsyuk plays)
When hockey is back, I'll be waiting...if not impatiently

And that's why we are looking at yet another lockout and that's why Bettman is still the commissioner

I think more than an online petition, if you want to be heard it's probably more effective to write to the Red Wings organization directly and spell out all the money you've spent in the past and all the money you will no longer be spending on the NHL. You could copy the NHL on it, if they have any sort of address where they can actually hear from fans.

It's still mostly of a symbolic gesture, but I think is more likely to be heard and taken seriously than an online petition. Then the key of course is for everyone to follow up on it and cancel tickets and not spend the money.

Unfortunately it's all we can do. Bettman and the owners don't give a s*** about the fans, it's only our money they care about. Let's stop giving it to them until Bettman is gone

[StormJH1]

Here's what really irks me - people debate the labor dispute and complain about how hockey is being taken from them and, oh, the poor arena workers and all the jobs being affected...

Then they turn around and say: "if there's a lockout, I won't ever watch hockey or pay a dime to the NHL again". Aren't those positions antithetical? Aren't you harming the sport, the players, and the workers just to get back at Bettman and the owners? While also depriving yourself of the greatest sport on Earth?

I put this almost all on the owners and Bettman. But I'll be back. And so will you.


Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jedi]

Apparently, the PA gave a proposal today, to which the league gave a counter proposal, per Aaron Ward.

The league also gave an ultimatum. If the PA doesn't agree to the league's counter proposal by Lockout Day (15th), then the league will pull that offer from the table.

Bettman, '(NHLPA) proposal not much different, other than some things around the edges, than their other proposal'

Bettman,'League made proposal that was meaningful movement in attempt to engage union'

Bettman,'if union doesn't accept NHL proposal by 15th it is off the table'

[F.Michael]

I'll still support the NHL after this. Still gonna buy merchandise, try to see games, pay for center ice. Being mad at the league as a whole hasn't clouded my memory enough to forget that I love hockey a lot.
Hockey fans spend a lot of time saying "i'll stop watching if _______ occurs" but I won't ever actually stop until the game stops being exciting for me (so I'll be around at least as long as Datsyuk plays)
When hockey is back, I'll be waiting...if not impatiently

I'm in the same boat you're in Ally...I've been a fan of the Detroit Red Wings since 1984; there's no way I'd stop being a fan; the players want to play, and the owners want a season...It's just the garbage "in-between" that needs to be dealt with.

That said - I'll keep my prediction that it'll be 60/40 in favour of a lockout...I hope I'm wrong.