905 replies to this topic

[Nightfall]

It's beyond me that someone could watch Bettman's press conference and think this is equally both sides fault.

He takes several shots at the union, then later lectures about "not negotiating publicly." And even goes back to blame the players for the lost season in 2004.

Its beyond me that someone would watch either of those press conferences and think that one side is doing everything in its power to make sure a season starts while the other is totally at fault in these negotiations. I suppose you have to have your lips firmly planted on the ass of the NHLPA to really come to that conclusion.

[haroldsnepsts]

I don't understand why everyone is blaming Bettman alone? Why this guy Don Fehr and his little brother are not to blame too? Is this because Bettman salary is two times greater than Fehr's.

NHL has been ready for negotiation long before New Year 2012, it's been said too many times. Fehr responded once saying talks will start sometime after All-Star break. Well he was right, talks started well after All-Star break.

My understanding, this guy deliberatly waited until late August to start negotiation. He understand that NHL has everything to loose while he has already stopped drawing his salary on July 1st. He wanted to push NHL to the limit, use sense of urgency to negitiate in hes and (maybe) players favour.

Ferh and his little brother earned to be blamed at least as much as Bettman.

What does it matter when they were "Ready for negotiation?" There's been plenty of time to negotiate this past week and they haven't been doing it.

We're three days from the lockout and they're still not even talking about the same core issue. It's not about the timeline.

[Johnz96]

Bettman is the worst thing to ever happen to the game of hockey

Edited by Johnz96, 12 September 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[haroldsnepsts]

Its beyond me that someone would watch either of those press conferences and think that one side is doing everything in its power to make sure a season starts while the other is totally at fault in these negotiations. I suppose you have to have your lips firmly planted on the ass of the NHLPA to really come to that conclusion.

Are you incapable of responding to people who disagree with you without changing their words and insulting them?

Though you seem unable to grasp the concept, there are more positions than:
1) agreeing with your "it's everybody's fault equally stance"
and
2) the union is absolutely perfect! This is completely 100% the leagues fault.

I never said that one side was doing everything in its power to make sure the season started. I never said one side is totally at fault.

[Nightfall]

I don't understand why everyone is blaming Bettman alone? Why this guy Don Fehr and his little brother are not to blame too? Is this because Bettman salary is two times greater than Fehr's.

NHL has been ready for negotiation long before New Year 2012, it's been said too many times. Fehr responded once saying talks will start sometime after All-Star break. Well he was right, talks started well after All-Star break.

My understanding, this guy deliberatly waited until late August to start negotiation. He understand that NHL has everything to loose while he has already stopped drawing his salary on July 1st. He wanted to push NHL to the limit, use sense of urgency to negitiate in hes and (maybe) players favour.

Ferh and his little brother earned to be blamed at least as much as Bettman.

I would be careful when talking about anything that isn't "pro NHLPA" around here. You see, the common theme is that the NHLPA has done everything within its power to prevent a work stoppage. Their proposal was like King Arthur pulling Excalibur from the stone, it was destined to be the solution. Oh, and any fault of the NHLPA is not really a fault at all. Remember, there is no spoon.

At least that is the current mentality from many in this thread.

In reality, both sides are at fault, with the NHL being more at fault for being pricks than the NHLPA. In the end, neither are willing to budge from their positions. The NHLPA is going to come forward to profess their solidarity, and the owners are going to lock them out. The PR battle has already been won by the players, and the NHL will get a brunt of the insults. Nevermind the facts that you pointed out. The NHLPA has done no wrong to these people, and that is almost as disgusting to me as the initial NHL proposal to the players which was downright insulting and disgusting in its own right.

In short, screw the NHL and NHLPA. They don't deserve your loyalty.

Are you incapable of responding to people who disagree with you without changing their words and insulting them?

Though you seem unable to grasp the concept, there are more positions than:
1) agreeing with your "it's everybody's fault equally stance"
and
2) the union is absolutely perfect! This is completely 100% the leagues fault.

Then speak your mind on both sides instead of just chirping the typical "ownership's fault" that you are so adept at mentioning. You seem to be speaking option #2 quite adeptly.

EDIT: For the record, I believe its 60-40 at fault with the NHL being moreso than the league.

Edited by Nightfall, 12 September 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[Johnz96]

I don't understand why everyone is blaming Bettman alone? Why this guy Don Fehr and his little brother are not to blame too? Is this because Bettman salary is two times greater than Fehr's.

NHL has been ready for negotiation long before New Year 2012, it's been said too many times. Fehr responded once saying talks will start sometime after All-Star break. Well he was right, talks started well after All-Star break.

My understanding, this guy deliberatly waited until late August to start negotiation. He understand that NHL has everything to loose while he has already stopped drawing his salary on July 1st. He wanted to push NHL to the limit, use sense of urgency to negitiate in hes and (maybe) players favour.

Ferh and his little brother earned to be blamed at least as much as Bettman.

Bettman is more influential than any one of the owners. He got the job by selling the owners on his ideas for growing the league and the necessity of parity (parody?) to make it work.The lockouts are all part of his mastermind plan. I think he actually thinks he is doing it for the good of hockey but is really doing it because of ambition and his love of power (a by-product of having been born so short and lacking any charisma).

Of more than 600 players only 15 make as much as Bettman.

The Suter and Parise UFA signing is a perfect example of why there is a threat of a lockout this season. The owners had a bidding war for them, they offered them the contracts they got. Of course they will take the most money offered, most people would. The owners give out these offers and then punish the players and fans by reneging on their offers by demanding they take a pay cut or lock them (and us) out for their stupidity.



Puck Daddy article with Datsyuk quote
"I wouldn't say that defensive hockey rules, but it is true that it's getting more difficult to score goals now. I think we have to go back to the goalie equipment size, the way it was before Bettman became commisiioner. I think that will make hockey more interesting. Goaltenders are already quitee big and tall, over 6 feet. Add to that oversized equipment and they become so big that it becomes extremely difficult to score."

Bettman has changed the way the game is played to make it easier for weaker teams to win games for the sake of parity. He rendered the game almost unwatchable for a decade with all the obstruction allowed so the less skilled teams have a better chance Major offensive records will never be broken and the game is a lot more fun to play and watch when it isn't so defensive.
This is going to be the 3rd lockout under his command. A lot of people say he has done good for the league, if that is true why do we need another lockout?

Edited by Johnz96, 12 September 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[haroldsnepsts]

I would be careful when talking about anything that isn't "pro NHLPA" around here. You see, the common theme is that the NHLPA has done everything within its power to prevent a work stoppage. Their proposal was like King Arthur pulling Excalibur from the stone, it was destined to be the solution. Oh, and any fault of the NHLPA is not really a fault at all. Remember, there is no spoon.

At least that is the current mentality from many in this thread.

In reality, both sides are at fault, with the NHL being more at fault for being pricks than the NHLPA. In the end, neither are willing to budge from their positions. The NHLPA is going to come forward to profess their solidarity, and the owners are going to lock them out. The PR battle has already been won by the players, and the NHL will get a brunt of the insults. Nevermind the facts that you pointed out. The NHLPA has done no wrong to these people, and that is almost as disgusting to me as the initial NHL proposal to the players which was downright insulting and disgusting in its own right.

In short, screw the NHL and NHLPA. They don't deserve your loyalty.


Then speak your mind on both sides instead of just chirping the typical "ownership's fault" that you are so adept at mentioning. You seem to be speaking option #2 quite adeptly.

I have been speaking my mind.

You repeatedly misinterpret and misconstrue what I and others have said in this thread.

Based on your responses, you apparently can only understand that it is a completely 50/50 split or it is 100% the other sides fault. Anything in between gets lost on you.

I've highlighted your most recent overdramatizations.

Right now the ownership is the most glaring problem in the negotiations. I've already touched on some issues the union needs to move on. But those are more detailed points that the negotiations haven't even reached yet.

[Crashnburnluder]

I still watch that together we can video over and cover again.... I know it's going to be a lockout but
I hope the players don't settle... Guys like Datsyuk shouldn't have to settle when they could make more money in their home town.... Time for the owners to pony up. There will be a lock out, the players have the upperhand, they are organized and determined an I don't blame them.. They took their pay cut for the good of the league in 05... Now it's the owners time...

[ami]

What does it matter when they were "Ready for negotiation?" There's been plenty of time to negotiate this past week and they haven't been doing it.

We're three days from the lockout and they're still not even talking about the same core issue. It's not about the timeline.

Of course it is about timeline.
I can reasonably assume, NHL offer would be the same in January, can't I?
Then, instead of having 4-5 weeks to ping-pong offers, they would have 30+ weeks.
However, PA decided to play blitz.

[sleepwalker]

Then speak your mind on both sides instead of just chirping the typical "ownership's fault" that you are so adept at mentioning. You seem to be speaking option #2 quite adeptly.

EDIT: For the record, I believe its 60-40 at fault with the NHL being moreso than the league.

Perhaps you should also do the same as you suggest. From all your comments here I would never in a million years have guessed you think the league is 60% to blame. From all of your comments, I would have guess you thought it was about 80-90% the players fault.

[haroldsnepsts]

Of course it is about timeline.
I can reasonably assume, NHL offer would be the same in January, can't I?
Then, instead of having 4-5 weeks to ping-pong offers, they would have 30+ weeks.
However, PA decided to play blitz.

The only way it's about the timeline is in that they're running out of time and using the deadline as leverage.

It doesn't matter if they started on January 1. If they're deadlocked 3 days from the deadline, what makes you think having 6 months would somehow help things?

It's all about playing chicken with the season to see who swerves first.

And your characterization of the PA playing blitz is inaccurate. It's not like they dropped a massive proposal on the NHL days before the deadline, and now Bettman and the owners are scrambling to make sense of it all.

Three days away and they don't even agree on the core issue. It's not the timeline.

[ami]

In reality, both sides are at fault, with the NHL being more at fault for being pricks than the NHLPA. In the end, neither are willing to budge from their positions. ...

Although, prick is not a term used in negotiation, I'd disagree NHL is more pricks.
I don't see any reasonable function of PA in todays world. Who is Don Fehr? Does he play professional hockey? Or does he run a bussness, or manage proffesional hockey organization?

Oh, yes he protects players rights as a group. Not to mentioned an army of agents and lawyers who are also protecting rights, our poor players are left unprotected. I'm crying...

Lets tell Parise hisf****** rights were brutally violated by Minissota Wild... And that poor guy Weber, he's left rotten under the sun by Nashvill Predators... I'm still crying...

Edited by ami, 12 September 2012 - 05:14 PM.

[Johnz96]

Are you incapable of responding to people who disagree with you without changing their words and insulting them?

Though you seem unable to grasp the concept, there are more positions than:
1) agreeing with your "it's everybody's fault equally stance"
and
2) the union is absolutely perfect! This is completely 100% the leagues fault.

I never said that one side was doing everything in its power to make sure the season started. I never said one side is totally at fault.

One MAN is totally at fault here, this wouldn't be happening without him and it never would have happened before wothout him

[Nightfall]

I have been speaking my mind.

You repeatedly misinterpret and misconstrue what I and others have said in this thread.

Based on your responses, you apparently can only understand that it is a completely 50/50 split or it is 100% the other sides fault. Anything in between gets lost on you.

I've highlighted your most recent overdramatizations.

Right now the ownership is the most glaring problem in the negotiations. I've already touched on some issues the union needs to move on. But those are more detailed points that the negotiations haven't even reached yet.

No offense, but by your comments and most others here, I hear zero harsh words when it comes to the NHLPA, but plenty to say when it comes to the NHL. Since you said you are speaking your mind, I would conclude that you are firmly behind the NHLPA, their stance on the economics of the NHL, and their proposals that they have put forward. You are right on one thing though, maybe I have been too harsh when it comes to the NHLPA fans in this thread. I have twisted your words around a couple times and for that I apologize. At the same time though, when I hear NHLPA fans such as yourself comment on how upset they are with the league, it is infuriating to not see what the NHLPA has been doing through this entire process. No flexibility? Waiting until the last minute to negotiate? No concessions at all? Not seeing the overall problem? These are just examples.

Fans who are backing the league or the NHLPA would be wise to look at the big picture.

In the end, there is nothing wrong with that. Public opinion through this entire process has been pro NHLPA and we the fans can do nothing even if we were for or against one side or the other. All we can do, as fans, is speak with our wallets.

[ami]

... what makes you think having 6 months would somehow help things?

Because I believe, eventually we going to see NHL season starts. It is a matter of time.

[Nightfall]

Perhaps you should also do the same as you suggest. From all your comments here I would never in a million years have guessed you think the league is 60% to blame. From all of your comments, I would have guess you thought it was about 80-90% the players fault.

I suppose that is the overlying problem. The NHLPA apologists only hear one side of the story. Every comment I have levied at the league about a crappy proposal or being morons have been completely missed by you and other NHLPA fans here because they are right along the lines of what you believe. However, the instant I comment on the NHLPA and how they have done a sucky job, all of a sudden you and other NHLPA fans who have supposedly "read my posts" are all up in arms about how I am for the league and what they stand for.

This is common when it comes to other matters as well such as politics. Pick a side and read the news you only want to read because it falls in line with your belief system.

This isn't targeted at you directly, but to those who believe I am a fan of the league.

One MAN is totally at fault here, this wouldn't be happening without him and it never would have happened before wothout him

Thats the ticket!

This should be required reading for those who hate Bettman. The guy is slime, but he isn't the reason for the lockout. Blame all the owners.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/8365817/gary-bettman-leading-cba-talks-owners-direction

The only way it's about the timeline is in that they're running out of time and using the deadline as leverage.

It doesn't matter if they started on January 1. If they're deadlocked 3 days from the deadline, what makes you think having 6 months would somehow help things?

It's all about playing chicken with the season to see who swerves first.

And your characterization of the PA playing blitz is inaccurate. It's not like they dropped a massive proposal on the NHL days before the deadline, and now Bettman and the owners are scrambling to make sense of it all.

Three days away and they don't even agree on the core issue. It's not the timeline.

No offense, but only a fool would say that more time is bad when it comes to a negotiation. You are right, no one knows what would have happened, but when the league was ready to negotiate and the NHLPA didn't step up to the table, that went largely unnoticed. To not at least say that it was a bad move by the NHLPA to not start negotiating early and wait until June is telling.

[sleepwalker]

It seems you are a fan of the league to me because you have been cheerleading for the GMs while making suble digs at the players this whole thread. (very Bettman-esque of you)

And you have been going on about how it is EQUALLY 50/50 both sides fault (until your most recent 60/40 post) when in the current situation it is clearly, to anyone paying attention, more the fault of the GMs than the players. The players are not blameless here either, but it is blaringly obvious that more fault rests with the GMs than the players this time around.

Edited by sleepwalker, 12 September 2012 - 05:23 PM.

[Johnz96]

No offense, but by your comments and most others here, I hear zero harsh words when it comes to the NHLPA, but plenty to say when it comes to the NHL. Since you said you are speaking your mind, I would conclude that you are firmly behind the NHLPA, their stance on the economics of the NHL, and their proposals that they have put forward. You are right on one thing though, maybe I have been too harsh when it comes to the NHLPA fans in this thread. I have twisted your words around a couple times and for that I apologize. At the same time though, when I hear NHLPA fans such as yourself comment on how upset they are with the league, it is infuriating to not see what the NHLPA has been doing through this entire process. No flexibility? Waiting until the last minute to negotiate? No concessions at all? Not seeing the overall problem? These are just examples.

Fans who are backing the league or the NHLPA would be wise to look at the big picture.

In the end, there is nothing wrong with that. Public opinion through this entire process has been pro NHLPA and we the fans can do nothing even if we were for or against one side or the other. All we can do, as fans, is speak with our wallets.

Boycott spending money on the NHL untill Bettman is fired for it

[haroldsnepsts]

No offense, but only a fool would say that more time is bad when it comes to a negotiation. You are right, no one knows what would have happened, but when the league was ready to negotiate and the NHLPA didn't step up to the table, that went largely unnoticed. To not at least say that it was a bad move by the NHLPA to not start negotiating early and wait until June is telling.

I pretty clearly spelled out why extra time doesn't matter. But I'll try and put it more simply. We're three days away and both sides are deadlocked. Yet you're saying starting 6 months earlier would've somehow helped? As if back then with little real threat of losing a season, they somehow would've started making concessions?

I didn't say it was a bad or good move. I'm saying it doesn't matter. Lack of time is not the issue.

And you say no offense, then call me a fool?

I'm tired of the insults built into your arguments and the constant misrepresentations of what I've said. Your mind seems made up and you're constantly responding to some idea of what you think I believe, instead of what I've actually stated I believe.

Carry on your merry way, but I'm done discussing this with you.

[rrasco]

I recall Bettman stalling negotiations too. He said something to the tune of, "We have a good end of the season going on, there is no reason to ruin that."