Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

2012 Lockout Watch

cba lockout

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
905 replies to this topic

#781 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 07:53 AM

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I don't expect either side to show any special consideration for fans. At least not in financial discussions. I expect them to produce a quality product at a price the market can bear. That's all. It's not like any of us will be hurt in any meaningful way if there's an extended lockout (barring those few who work in an NHL-dependent industry). So we might need to find something new to entertain us for a while. If that's the worst of our problems, we should just call ourselves lucky and be done with it. Not to say I won't be upset if we lose some or all of the season, I just don't expect any concessions from either side for our benefit.

I just want them to negotiate in good faith, and make fair offers. I've seen nothing to suggest the league is actually doing so, while the numbers seem to fall in line with what the players want. Of course, none of us has all the information so it's really pointless to keep that debate going.

Regarding the timing of negotiations: there's a reason almost all collective bargaining is done at the last minute. If there is some middle ground where both sides can agree, negotiation is really only a matter of hours. If there isn't, then you could negotiate non-stop for years and never get anywhere but more firmly entrenched. If there's no middle-ground, there has to be some external influence, such as a lockout (or sometimes just the threat of an impending one), to start changing people's minds.

Case in point: "The enforcer debate". It's been raging for what? 15 years? Pretty much no one on either side has changed their opinion at all. We all just keep repeating the same things every time the topic comes up. There's no reason for any of us to concede anything. But if someone were to come here tomorrow and say none of us will collect a paycheck until we reach a consensus... then you'd see some minds change. But it's been a heated debate for a long time, and some people are just stubbornly dug in to their position. Fighting more out of a determination to win than any real consideration of the topic

Had CBA negotiations started 6 months ago, we'd very likely be in an even worse spot now.

One thing that I've been thinking is just how much of this all comes back to the low-revenue teams. The league want to cut spending on players, not because the league as a whole can't afford it, but because some teams can't afford it (and even more teams can't control themselves). The players don't want to give up what they've been contractually promised (because the league as a whole can afford it) and want the rich teams to do more to support the poor teams.

So the rich teams don't want to support the poor teams. The players don't want to support the poor teams. The fans don't want to support the poor teams (or they wouldn't be so poor). Who does want these teams? Why is no one other than a fairly small number of fans talking about getting rid of them? Is it fair to force pay cuts on the players while the Leafs could maybe see $100M+ in profit, and a handful more could see $30-50M, just so a few s***ty teams that apparently no one gives a damn about can also make a few million? On the other hand, is it fair to ask the rich teams to support the poor ones when they don't really benefit from doing so? The PA benefits from the extra jobs those teams create, but they'd benefit just as much if those teams were in better markets, and the players have no say in team location. Revenue disparity is really the biggest issue in the league, but it seems everyone accepts it as a handicap to be worked around rather than an infection to be cured.

There's a few ways to cure it:

Get rid of the cap system. Simplest solution, and I'm sure the players would love it. Each team free to spend as much or as little as they want. Players aren't guaranteed any percentage, and the market alone determines player salaries. There's no good reason that all 30 teams couldn't make a profit in this system. Owners are dead set against it, to the point that it's almost a joke to even suggest it. They like to say it's for "parity", but really it's because the NHL if full of owners who have proven they can't control themselves. MLB, for all intents, has no cap. But they do have smarter owners. Most MLB teams make a profit, and there's some decent parity. The Yankees spend over $140M more in player salary than the A's but have a worse record. Yeah, the spending gap is higher than most NHL teams' total revenue. Spending has almost zero correlation to standing. But the NHL has too many stupid owners, so it wouldn't work. Too bad.

Widen the cap-floor separation. Similar to the above. Let the poorer teams spend less, and the rich teams more. Leave the mid-point/player's share alone. The rich teams make up for the poor teams, but unlike profit sharing the rich teams see a tangible benefit. Player's still get what they consider a fair cut, and again no reason that every team couldn't make a profit. You can also do this indirectly via soft cap/tax system, trading cap space, etc. Unfortunately, it has basically the same problems as removing the cap. Owners would need to control themselves, which they've proven they can't do.

Move a few teams. Bit more complicated, but maybe easier than replacing half the owners. Phoenix and the Islanders have to go. They're failures just like Atlanta was. I'd say Carolina too. Columbus, Florida, and Nashville possible alternates. Maybe even St.Louis. Looking at the revenue numbers, the Toronto market needs another team, and could probably support a third. Montreal could likely support another, and/or put a team back in Quebec. Vancouver could maybe support a second, and even a tiny Canadian market like Saskatoon might do better than some current NHL cities (though I don't think that it should be tried). Point is, you could possibly put six more teams in Canada and the league would be better for it. A few US markets like Seattle, KC, Salt Lake, Vegas, Milwaukee, and Indianapolis might be worth a look. Move a few teams, improve the revenue gap, stagnate cap growth rather than rollback salaries, and the PA likely buys in for a lower percentage of a bigger pie. Owners (other than the few who would relocate, or face new market competition) shouldn't care where the other teams are. But it won't even be discussed because ??? doesn't want teams to move...

You can't get rid of the cap or owners will bankrupt themselves.
The Suter and Parise UFA signing is a perfect example of why there is a threat of a lockout this season. The owners had a bidding war for them, they offered them the contracts they got. Of course they will take the most money offered, most people would. The owners give out these offers and then punish the players and fans by reneging on their offers by demanding they take a pay cut or lock them (and us) out for their stupidity.

This morning, TSN's Darren Dreger said a "big-name" player said (paraphrasing): "I'd rather leave the game than give back more like we did the last time".
The Board of Governors will also meet today, voting on Uncle Gary's desire the lockout; speculation on TSN showed voting could be as high as unanimous and as low as 25-5.

Good for them I wouldn't play in a league run by him either

Edited by Johnz96, 13 September 2012 - 07:51 AM.


#782 evilzyme

evilzyme

    Games a gongshow.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,095 posts
  • Location:Howell, Michigan

Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:01 AM

yea!!!! board of governors meeting today with the big man
yap! go ahead and confirm those lockout plans guys! wooo todays gonna suck. dont mind me when i start quietly crying today due to the lack of my life and only sport i honestly follow and love
Dammmmmnit!

Pavel Datsyuk - "Pasha" - #13
"Got no fun if you got no puck"
'"I like ladies" - Towards the Lady Byng trophy
"Hannnnnnnnnnk"
"Okay $5 now"

 

I'm Don Cherry and Danny DeKeyser is my Kadri.


#783 Pskov Wings Fan

Pskov Wings Fan

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,027 posts
  • Location:Minneapoilis, MN

Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:30 AM

You can't get rid of the cap or owners will bankrupt themselves.


Who cares? Maybe somebody with an ability to run a successful hockey franchise would buy it cheap then.

#784 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:43 AM

Bettman is more influential than any one of the owners. He got the job by selling the owners on his ideas for growing the league and the necessity of parity (parody?) to make it work.The lockouts are all part of his mastermind plan. I think he actually thinks he is doing it for the good of hockey but is really doing it because of ambition and his love of power (a by-product of having been born so short and lacking any charisma).

Of more than 600 players only 15 make as much as Bettman.

The Suter and Parise UFA signing is a perfect example of why there is a threat of a lockout this season. The owners had a bidding war for them, they offered them the contracts they got. Of course they will take the most money offered, most people would. The owners give out these offers and then punish the players and fans by reneging on their offers by demanding they take a pay cut or lock them (and us) out for their stupidity.



Puck Daddy article with Datsyuk quote
"I wouldn't say that defensive hockey rules, but it is true that it's getting more difficult to score goals now. I think we have to go back to the goalie equipment size, the way it was before Bettman became commisiioner. I think that will make hockey more interesting. Goaltenders are already quitee big and tall, over 6 feet. Add to that oversized equipment and they become so big that it becomes extremely difficult to score."

Bettman has changed the way the game is played to make it easier for weaker teams to win games for the sake of parity by restricting skill and talent. He rendered the game almost unwatchable for a decade with all the obstruction allowed so the less skilled teams have a better chance Major offensive records will never be broken and the game is a lot more fun to play and watch when it isn't so defensive.
This is going to be the 3rd lockout under his command. A lot of people say he has done good for the league, if that is true why do we need another lockout?


You can stop bullets with chest protectors that are much smaller and tighter fitting than the ones goalies wear

#785 dirtydangles

dirtydangles

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,692 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:44 AM

You can stop bullets with chest protectors that are much smaller and tighter fitting than the ones goalies wear

It also hurts like a ***** and you bruise terribly and can get internal injuries.

Is there a kickstarter campaign for Jakub Kindl to never play another NHL game?


#786 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:49 AM

I always think that if you don't vote then you can't complain about whoever is in office...I'm gonna go with the same theory here and say that if we as fans don't support the league then we have no right to complain about what the league does.

I do support the league and the fans by spreading the word. Bettman is the worst thing to ever happen to the game of hockey and the only way to get rid of him is to boycott spending money on the league until he is gone (the best thing that can happen to the sport of hockey now)
It is never good to stereotype but Bettman is the epitome of all the bad things people say about lawyers.
Let's get rid of him once and for all, he has set up the perfect platform to do it

#787 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 08:56 AM

It also hurts like a ***** and you bruise terribly and can get internal injuries.

Yeah bullets hurt a lot more than pucks.
All that I am saying is that goalie equipment is so big to protect the net more than to protect the goalie, you can easily make it much smaller and just as protective.
Bettman encouraged the growth of goalie equipment as a means of restricting skill and talent and has deceived everybody about it all along.
All there stupid plans for increasing scoring (like the trapezoid) are unnecessary if you just make the goalie equipment as big as it was before Bettman became commissioner. He really doesn't want to increase scoring but make it look like he does, he wants to restrict skill and talent for the sake of "parity". It's a parody

#788 RippedOnNitro

RippedOnNitro

    Rookie

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 111 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:00 AM

This morning, TSN's Darren Dreger said a "big-name" player said (paraphrasing): "I'd rather leave the game than give back more like we did the last time".
The Board of Governors will also meet today, voting on Uncle Gary's desire the lockout; speculation on TSN showed voting could be as high as unanimous and as low as 25-5.


To me it sounds like that player plays hockey for the money and not for the love of the game. It's a shame!

They should allow an audience at that meeting and to be aired live, so everyone can yell "booooooo" once an owner votes for a lockout.

Edited by RippedOnNitro, 13 September 2012 - 09:09 AM.

First round series win: $0 () Second round series win: $0 () Third round series win: $0 () Fourth round series win: $0 () Goal difference: $0 (-3) Shutout difference: $0 (0) SHG difference: $0 (0) Extra points reg. season: $3 (102)

TOTAL COLLECTED: $0 TOTAL BONUS IF STANLEY CUP: $3

#789 WizardOfOz30

WizardOfOz30

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Gold Booster
  • 4,726 posts
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:38 AM

This morning, TSN's Darren Dreger said a "big-name" player said (paraphrasing): "I'd rather leave the game than give back more like we did the last time".
The Board of Governors will also meet today, voting on Uncle Gary's desire the lockout; speculation on TSN showed voting could be as high as unanimous and as low as 25-5.


I wonder what they would do if there was a mass exit of players from the NHL. Would they really stay away or eventually come back.

To me it sounds like that player plays hockey for the money and not for the love of the game. It's a shame!

They should allow an audience at that meeting and to be aired live, so everyone can yell "booooooo" once an owner votes for a lockout.

To me them saying they'd leave sounds like they are tired fo the BS going on with this negotiation. I agree both sides could stand to make some concessions and take a little less money. But a pay cut is a pay cut, though all of these guys can still survive on quite a bit less money. We don't know all the politics that the players are involved in while doing their jobs. Since many of them have left their homeland to come here and play, they might be more inclined to go back home and play there and have more time with their families.

Posted Image

Thanks Offsides


"If I could sum up my career in Detroit, I was a perfect goalie for the team at the perfect time. I just wanted to be a Red Wing, that's it." Chris Osgood, July 19, 2011

#790 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,746 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:01 AM

To me it sounds like that player plays hockey for the money and not for the love of the game. It's a shame!

They should allow an audience at that meeting and to be aired live, so everyone can yell "booooooo" once an owner votes for a lockout.


I think this player is as fed up with the BS dwarfish commissioner as everyone else and maybe just maybe he has to pay some bills, family and you know like to be able to pay them? Guys like us are playing hockey for fun, enjoyment these guys are professional athletes hockey is their job.

Thinking the fact that some players are going hardball is a good sign, last timel they gave too much they won't do so again and even the dumbest owner should know a league without all the stars will never be the same.

kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#791 F.Michael

F.Michael

    Old School Dynamic Duo

  • HoF Booster
  • 7,513 posts
  • Location:Wisconsin

Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:09 AM

I'm still a firm believer of my earlier predictions from a post in a similar thread; 60/40 in favor of a lock-out.

Make it 80/20...

'Evolution' created by Offsides

#792 sleepwalker

sleepwalker

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,057 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:34 AM

Make it 80/20...


LOL

I love your optimism. Just the other day when it was pretty clear the chances at the best were 99/1 you were still sticking by your 60/40 prediction. Today, now that there is no doubt that a lockout is 100% assured, you are downgrading your prediction to 80/20. I love it!

#793 rrasco

rrasco

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,007 posts
  • Location:Texas

Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:38 AM

The Suter and Parise UFA signing is a perfect example of why there is a threat of a lockout this season. The owners had a bidding war for them, they offered them the contracts they got. Of course they will take the most money offered, most people would. The owners give out these offers and then punish the players and fans by reneging on their offers by demanding they take a pay cut or lock them (and us) out for their stupidity.


How many times are you going to copy and paste this into a post? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just tired of reading the same paragraph.

Kronwalled.net - Keep Yer Head up Kid

 

MONEY ON THE BOARD: $10/Kronwalling (1), $1/goal by: Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco, Sheahan, disney.com (1), Andersson, Dekeyser, Pulkinnen, Ouellet, or Sproul.  2X MULTIPLIER: disney.com.  CONSOLATION PRIZE: $5/goal by: Datsyuk (3), $3/goal by: Z (1). MOTB TOTAL: $30


#794 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:49 AM

How many times are you going to copy and paste this into a post? I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just tired of reading the same paragraph.

Sorry, for those that missed it, I can't believe some people are siding with the owners on this one at all it all comes down to that they are locking the players and us out (I only watch on tv or the computer until Bettman is gone) because of their own stupidity

#795 ami

ami

    1st Line Sniper

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 760 posts
  • Location:San Diego, CA

Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:53 AM

... If positions cannot be reconciled it does not matter when you start negotiating.


Then, I assume, you believe we'll never see NHL again?

If you think the new season will eventually starts, let assume for the sake of arguments, it starts on Jan 1st, 2013, 3 mouths lockout. That would mean positions had been reconciled sometimes between now and Jan 1st, 2013, i.e. with in aprx. 6 month from the begimming of the talks.

Now lets assume talks would have started the week following All-Start break...

I'm not saying all issues will definetly be resolved before Oct 6, but the probapility of it, is a way better then it is now.

#796 cusimano_brothers

cusimano_brothers

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,605 posts
  • Location:Niagara Falls, ON

Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:12 PM

From TSN:

With the fate of the 2012-13 NHL season hanging in the balance, TSN has today's NHL Board of Governors and NHLPA player meetings in New York covered from all angles with the network's NHL on TSN Showdown 2012 program at 7pm et/4pm pt.
...


I'm looking hard, but I can't seem to find similar coverage on NBC.

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#797 Nightfall

Nightfall

    My goal is to deny yours!

  • Gold Booster
  • 3,739 posts
  • Location:Grand Rapids

Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:22 PM

From TSN:



I'm looking hard, but I can't seem to find similar coverage on NBC.

I am assuming you are talking about the NBC Sports Network? Hell, they should be covering it.
Christopher Brian Dudek
My Domain

#798 F.Michael

F.Michael

    Old School Dynamic Duo

  • HoF Booster
  • 7,513 posts
  • Location:Wisconsin

Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:26 PM

LOL

I love your optimism. Just the other day when it was pretty clear the chances at the best were 99/1 you were still sticking by your 60/40 prediction. Today, now that there is no doubt that a lockout is 100% assured, you are downgrading your prediction to 80/20. I love it!

Well - when I posted my "prediction" back in May - many here thought I was nutz.

'Evolution' created by Offsides

#799 cusimano_brothers

cusimano_brothers

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,605 posts
  • Location:Niagara Falls, ON

Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:27 PM

I am assuming you are talking about the NBC Sports Network? Hell, they should be covering it.


Nope, NBC; the BIG network that Uncle Gary was so happy to crow about when the deal was signed for NHL coverage. The same network that, in the blink of an eye, gave back the League two-hundred million dollars. You don't think they weren't tipped off about the ensuing lockout, do you?

"Mess up tomorrow, don't mess up now".

- Harry James Benson, CBE.


#800 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,746 posts

Posted 13 September 2012 - 12:34 PM

I'd recommend watching the tsn show it is really good coverage and facts provided by the three best hockey insiders Lebrum, McKenzie and Dreger.

kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..






Similar Topics Collapse


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users