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The truth of our decline.


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#41 centcougar07

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 02:54 PM

Just wondering the favorite flavor of kool aid? Cherry or strawberry? Either way, there is some massive consumption going on......


Most are drinking Red Wings flavored Kool aid and wearing their thick red wings glasses

#42 number9

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 02:56 PM

I wonder why you and others like you, who view disagreement with their catastrophic theories as resulting from stupidity, blindness or self-delusion, even bother to visit DISCUSSION forums. If you want your words to be read and not disagreed with, then go write a blog.


I wonder why somebody who completely disagrees with the wings system, has zero faith in our veteran players, and thinks we are heading straight into the gutter, is even a wings fan lol.

#43 Richdg

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 03:14 PM

LOL its called scoring percentage dude (pretty sure i said that in my original post....its reading not fantasy haha). Percentage of points scored per games played. Example: 80 pts in 80 games played would be 100% and 40 pts in 80 games played would be 50%......LOL did u really think i was just pulling random numbers out of a hat?????

Next ur gonna post a thread about how we dont have a good farm and Suter is only famous for his name Posted Image



Actually, now that I understand what you where trying to say, it proves my point. If dat was at 125% scoring in 2008 and is at 95% scoring in 2012, that is a 30% DECLINE! Not to mention he is playing fewer and fewer games each year. In 08 and 09 Dat had 97 points. he played 82 games in 08 and 81 games in 09. Now he is down to the mid and lower 70's in games played. So thanks for making my point.

#44 Richdg

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 03:28 PM

From what I gather, based on this forum, others and the various PM I get, there is very much a generational divide when it comes to the Wings. Those that are in the late 20's and younger, the ones who grew up during all of the success, seem to think everything is fine, and the good times will never end. Those 30 and older (closer in age to the veterans we talk about) seem to think it is time for some retooling. I for example, am 42. Same age as Nick. I think he should retire. Yet those 15+ years younger thing he should stay for another year or 2. Kinda interesting in some ways.

#45 pucktividi

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 05:58 PM

From what I gather, based on this forum, others and the various PM I get, there is very much a generational divide when it comes to the Wings. Those that are in the late 20's and younger, the ones who grew up during all of the success, seem to think everything is fine, and the good times will never end. Those 30 and older (closer in age to the veterans we talk about) seem to think it is time for some retooling. I for example, am 42. Same age as Nick. I think he should retire. Yet those 15+ years younger thing he should stay for another year or 2. Kinda interesting in some ways.


So Holland,Babcock,Trotz... are the adolescents I guess :hehe:

#46 number9

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 06:49 PM

Actually, now that I understand what you where trying to say, it proves my point. If dat was at 125% scoring in 2008 and is at 95% scoring in 2012, that is a 30% DECLINE! Not to mention he is playing fewer and fewer games each year. In 08 and 09 Dat had 97 points. he played 82 games in 08 and 81 games in 09. Now he is down to the mid and lower 70's in games played. So thanks for making my point.


OMG you are crazy and know nothing about the NHL if you think anywhere in the 70s for amount of games played is bad.

95% scoring percentage is nothing to frown about...we all should be jumping for joy because most players will never even dream of hitting that....its amazing that even at 30% decline from 5 years ago hes still barely below 100%....his numbers are also way more consistent than almost every other elite forward in the league (most shift way more than 30% across 5 years) . In 2007/2008 and 2008/2009 we also had a much more complete and well rounded team....If we had those teams every year around Dats he could probably go beyond 125% on an up year.

Ovechkin
2007/2008 = 136%
2011/2012 = 83%
decline of 53%
^ Whoa! By the looks of it Ovi is old and washed up like you think Dats is! Caps better trade him cause hes going nowhere but down. He's certainly not one of the top 5 players in league anymore or anytime soon! (sarcasm)

Kovalchuk
2007/2008 = 110%
2010/2011 = 74%
decline of 36%
^ Kovy is younger than Dats and decreased by 6% more over a shorter time span!... but wait look what happened this year!
2011/2102 = 107%
^ He's back up to his old numbers!

Lets look at a guy older than Dats shall we!
Selanne
2007/2008 = 88%
2010/2011 = 109%
^ Holy crap! At an age older than Dats he increased his numbers by 21%!!!.....but look what happened this year...
2011/2012 = 80%
^ The whole team had a bad year and he's down to 80%! :(

Lets look at the top 2 forwards in each of the final four teams....

Kopitar
2011/2012 = 92%
M. Richards
2011/2012 = 59%

Gaborik
2011/2012 = 92%
B. Richards
2011/2012 = 80%

Kovalchuk
2011/2012 = 107%
Parise
2011/2012 = 84%

Whitney
2011/2012 = 93%
Vrbata
2011/2012 = 80%

By your logic none of these teams should still be in the playoffs.....The only one who did better than Datsyuk this year is Kovy and as we both know Kovy plays terrible defense compared to Dats and he's wayyyyyyy overpaid compared to Dats. All those players play worse D than Dats (besides M. Richards, but he only hit 59%)....And most are paid more than Dats.... problem is not Dats. Maybe we should just put the right pieces around him like we did in 07/08/09....a sniper like Hossa and/or a strong bottom 6 and allow him to excel again.

#47 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:10 PM

So basically in a nuthshell what you are trying to tell us is it ain't looking good for the Wings in the future. *fixed*

#48 chrisdetroit

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:31 PM

Made this handy little spread sheet. it covers the 5 of our top 6 forwards that are signed for next season. has the names, ages, and 3 stats for each year from 2008 through 2012. Those stats are: GP=games played, PTS=points, and shts=shoots on goal. Black numbers are no change or improved, red numbers are declines.
Name----Age--------------------2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
--------------------------------GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts GP PTS shts

Zetterberg--32-------------75 92 358 77 73 309 74 70 309 80 80 306 82 69 267

Datsyk----34---------------- 82 97 264 81 97 248 80 70 203 56 59 137 70 67 164

Franzen----33---------------72 38 199 71 59 246 27 21 91 76 55 248 77 56 211

Burtuzzi----37---------------68 40 121 66 44 127 82 44 216 81 45 138 71 38 118

Cleary---34------------------63 42 177 74 40 163 64 34 140 68 46 192 75 33 199

Now for some follow up. Of the 15 numbers for each player, dat has 9 reds. meaning he is declinging just about every year, in just about every catagory. it would be worse but his numbers this year are improved over 2011 when he was hurt. But his 2012 numbers are worse than his 2010 numbers. Second in red numbers is Z. he has 7 out of 15 in red. Cleary has 6 out 15 in red. Burt also has 6 out of 15 in red. franzen has declined the fewest times. Only 5 red numbers. The number that stands out to me the most, is dat's decline in shots. In 2008 he took 264 shots. Then followed by 248, 203, 137, and finally 164 this past year. Granted he played 12 fewer games, but he had 103 fewer shots! That is a 38% drop!

None of us want to se a bad RW team. We all want to win Cups every year. But we also have to face facts. The fact is we need to find our next pair of great forwards that can lead us for the next 10 years. We started this run with Yzerman and federov, then continued it with dat and Z. No where in our organization do we have 2 guys that are potential 80 point per year guys. This is Holland's big challenge. Do we trade? Sign FA's? move up in the draft somewhere?
My personnel opinion is they need to be C's. A wing by himself can't do it. A good sniper-like parise is, can't score if no one can get him the puck. One last thing. Please understand the difference between good and great. dat and Z are still good players. They are not great players anymore. They will continue to work hard, provide leadership, and score 60 to 75 points for a few more years. But they are not guys that can carry a team anymore. help carry yes, but we have to find the next pair to do the heavy lifting.


Chart was fixed, loaded poorly.....


So you have proven that you flunked statistics 101. What a load of crap. All of your number are totals i.e. total points, total goals, etc. So lets's look at Datsyuk. He missed alot of games this year due to injury. As a result he gets a "red" mark in points, shots, goals, etc. because his totals are down and all of his totals are down for the year because of injury. From this you conclude that he is declining. And who cares about having individual players that put up great numbers. It's a team sport and the Wings were once again near the top of the league in scoring.

Fail.
Do or do not. There is no try

#49 number9

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Posted 19 May 2012 - 07:47 PM

So you have proven that you flunked statistics 101. What a load of crap. All of your number are totals i.e. total points, total goals, etc. So lets's look at Datsyuk. He missed alot of games this year due to injury. As a result he gets a "red" mark in points, shots, goals, etc. because his totals are down and all of his totals are down for the year because of injury. From this you conclude that he is declining. And who cares about having individual players that put up great numbers. It's a team sport and the Wings were once again near the top of the league in scoring.

Fail.


Bingo!

#50 Ally

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 12:36 AM

I didn't know that I was only allowed a certain number of negs in a day. Learning a lot from this thread.

 
"Everything he does is exciting to watch.” -Holmstrom describes Datsyuk


#51 centcougar07

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 08:01 PM

I wonder why somebody who completely disagrees with the wings system, has zero faith in our veteran players, and thinks we are heading straight into the gutter, is even a wings fan lol.


Just because he doesn't eat the s*** sandwhich put on his plate by arrogant fans/management doesn't mean he doesn't cheer for the team to win.

#52 Ally

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:14 PM

Just because he doesn't eat the s*** sandwhich put on his plate by arrogant fans/management doesn't mean he doesn't cheer for the team to win.


The s*** sandwhich being....the team? the idea that the team is awesome?
I don't see why some of you bother being "fans" of a team that you hate so much about? this is beyond constructive criticism at this point.

 
"Everything he does is exciting to watch.” -Holmstrom describes Datsyuk


#53 Richdg

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:17 PM

So you have proven that you flunked statistics 101. What a load of crap. All of your number are totals i.e. total points, total goals, etc. So lets's look at Datsyuk. He missed alot of games this year due to injury. As a result he gets a "red" mark in points, shots, goals, etc. because his totals are down and all of his totals are down for the year because of injury. From this you conclude that he is declining. And who cares about having individual players that put up great numbers. It's a team sport and the Wings were once again near the top of the league in scoring.

Fail.



Clearly you failed reading. dat has zero reds this year. His number were up from last year. A season where he was also hurt (notice a trend here) and only played 59 games. I didn't even list goals. There were 3 things for each player listed: Games played, total points, and shots. That is it. In every case, using linear regression (stats lingo for you) our slope is linear, strong, negative, with outliers. BTW I just got a B+ in Statistics from GVSU last semester! please try again, but you will fail.

#54 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:17 PM

Isn't there a shower and a bar of soap somewhere with Rich and Cougar's names written on it?
Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#55 Richdg

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 11:33 PM

Just because he doesn't eat the s*** sandwhich put on his plate by arrogant fans/management doesn't mean he doesn't cheer for the team to win.



No need to be rude. I don't careif people agree with me or not. That is their right. Those that don't like what I post are always free to not read it. But they do and react. If my posts where not hitting a nerve, they wouldn't post.

#56 kipwinger

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 01:38 AM

No need to be rude. I don't careif people agree with me or not. That is their right. Those that don't like what I post are always free to not read it. But they do and react. If my posts where not hitting a nerve, they wouldn't post.


That is 100% reasonable.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#57 centcougar07

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 03:54 AM

The s*** sandwhich being....the team? the idea that the team is awesome?
I don't see why some of you bother being "fans" of a team that you hate so much about? this is beyond constructive criticism at this point.


The s*** sandwich being the notion that we're going to sign these FA's because there's no way they could possibly sign elsewhere and then all of our A++ prospects who are clearly the next Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's and Lidstrom's, will come in here and everything will be just fine. I don't buy into it.

#58 centcougar07

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 03:54 AM

The s*** sandwhich being....the team? the idea that the team is awesome?
I don't see why some of you bother being "fans" of a team that you hate so much about? this is beyond constructive criticism at this point.


The s*** sandwich being the notion that we're going to sign these FA's because there's no way they could possibly sign elsewhere and then all of our A++ prospects who are clearly the next Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's and Lidstrom's, will come in here and everything will be just fine. I don't buy into it.

#59 Nightfall

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:11 AM

Lets put things in perspective shall we?

Look at the Wings in the last 21 years. They have made the playoffs, and while they haven't been cup favorites every year, I believe the new NHL is ushering in a new era. You have a number 8 seeded LA Kings team that has lost just 2 games in the playoffs this season. It doesn't matter what seed you are. There is a new form of parity in the NHL. The Red Wings have won 4 cups in the last 15 years. That alone is a huge accomplishment. To expect that kind of success in the next 15 years is really not aligned with reality.

The Red Wings are showing no sign of decline. They hit 100 points last season. They have some strong kids in the AHL. Most importantly though, the ownership has spent a lot of money to bring in free agents, make some trades, and worked to keep this team strong. To be honest, I really don't understand how you think that the Wings are "declining". People probably thought that when Shanny and Fedorov left. Same when Yzerman retired. Yet, this team has continued to win and make the playoffs as a result.

Now, to expect the Wings to win the cup every year is ludicrous. There can only be one cup winner, and even in 2007 when we signed Dallas Drake, not many thought we were a lock to win the cup. Many people here s*** on the Dallas Drake signing at the time, and yet the Wings were the best team in the NHL and won the cup that year. Then, the next year they were one win away from the cup when everyone thought they were a lock. The Wings management have put the team in a position to win in the regular season, and then when the playoffs roll around, if they are healthy and get some puck luck they will have a shot at that as well. Yet, this year we got hit with some key injuries and the puck luck was not on our side.

To be honest, the people who are proclaiming the Wings are on the decline have not looked at the bigger picture here. If the Wings were not spending money, then I would agree. If the Wings were depleting their kids in the minors, then I would agree. If the Wings were not willing to bid for free agents, then I would agree. Every sign points to a great season next season. The Wings are going to do what it takes to hit that 100 point mark once again next season, and then when the playoffs hit, all bets are off. Your team has a 1 in 16 shot to win the cup at that point.

I would say if you think the Wings are on the decline now, just wait until the team is sold or handed over to a group of people who only care about making a profit. I mean, why spend $65 million when a new group will only spend $45-$50. Wings fans will continue to buy tickets, and maybe they will make the playoffs. The decline of this team will hit when management decides not to spend money on prominent free agents and just approaches this team from a pure "making money" perspective.

Until then, as a fan, I say hang on and enjoy the ride. No other team in the history of the league has had this level of success that the Wings have had. The fans have become spoiled, and that doesn't surprise me. The "cup or bust" attitude is something I believe in as well. Why put a team out there that isn't going to compete for the cup? The thing is that there are 20 other teams doing the same thing, and there can only be one cup winner with all the parity in the league. Keep your expectations realistic.
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#60 pucktividi

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:36 AM

The s*** sandwich being the notion that we're going to sign these FA's because there's no way they could possibly sign elsewhere and then all of our A++ prospects who are clearly the next Datsyuk's and Zetterberg's and Lidstrom's, will come in here and everything will be just fine. I don't buy into it.


To get those A++ prospects we need to:

1.play bad and tank very hard

2.trade everything valuable on the roster

That's too many s*** sandwiches in my book,but dunno maybe you're ready to eat them :unsure:





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