142 replies to this topic

[Richdg]

I'm just saying better teams are more likely to lose games with less scoring and bigger goalie equipment internationally or in the NHL.
Anybody paying in the AHL regardless of NHL experience weren't deemed good enough to make their respective teams
The best veteran North Americans don't participate in the tournament

Correct. The US and canada could have multiple international teas if all their top players showed up-hell Canada could have 3 or 4. But most don't go play. Most are looking forward to the time off and take it. The Olympics are the main international comp., and the top player show for it. Which is why the US and Canada win the gold and silver.

[sibiriak]

I'm just saying better teams are more likely to lose games with less scoring and bigger goalie equipment internationally or in the NHL.
Anybody paying in the AHL regardless of NHL experience weren't deemed good enough to make their respective teams
The best veteran North Americans don't participate in the tournament

"Better" teams lost, so they were not "better". And they didn't lose 1-0. USA lost to Slovakia 2-4, and to Finland 2-3,
Canada lost to Slovakia 3-4. Goaltender equipment was the same as in NHL.
What "best veteran North Americans" didn't play that could have strengthened their teams? (Apart from the ones busy in the Stanley Cup playoffs or injured.) Remember, Steve Yzerman was the GM of this team Canada, surely the players must realize that this may have been their last chance to audition for Sochi-2014? On paper, Canada and USA were "better" than Slovakia, Finland, or even Russia. Unfortunately for them, ice is more slippery than paper.

[Johnz96]

"Better" teams lost, so they were not "better". And they didn't lose 1-0. USA lost to Slovakia 2-4, and to Finland 2-3,
Canada lost to Slovakia 3-4. Goaltender equipment was the same as in NHL.
What "best veteran North Americans" didn't play that could have strengthened their teams? (Apart from the ones busy in the Stanley Cup playoffs or injured.) Remember, Steve Yzerman was the GM of this team Canada, surely the players must realize that this may have been their last chance to audition for Sochi-2014? On paper, Canada and USA were "better" than Slovakia, Finland, or even Russia. Unfortunately for them, ice is more slippery than paper.

Are you kidding?

[sibiriak]

Correct. The US and canada could have multiple international teas if all their top players showed up-hell Canada could have 3 or 4. But most don't go play. Most are looking forward to the time off and take it. The Olympics are the main international comp., and the top player show for it. Which is why the US and Canada win the gold and silver.

Correction, US and Canada won gold and silver only twice since 1998, and coincidentally, when the Olympics were held in North America. In Nagano and Turin Czech Republic and Sweden won gold, and Russia and Finland - silver. So Canada won some and Europeans won some. There's no clear advantage either way, and the sample size is too small anyway. As to the fact that Canada is deep, so what. There still are only 6 players on the ice at a time. In Turin, all that depth didn't help, did it? And if you actually look at Canada rosters at the Worlds, at least in the last 7-8 years, those are some pretty impressive rosters.

Are you kidding?

No. Do you even know who did play for Canada and the US this year?

[Johnz96]

Correction, US and Canada won gold and silver only twice since 1998, and coincidentally, when the Olympics were held in North America. In Nagano and Turin Czech Republic and Sweden won gold, and Russia and Finland - silver. So Canada won some and Europeans won some. There's no clear advantage either way, and the sample size is too small anyway. As to the fact that Canada is deep, so what. There still are only 6 players on the ice at a time. In Turin, all that depth didn't help, did it? And if you actually look at Canada rosters at the Worlds, at least in the last 7-8 years, those are some pretty impressive rosters.


No. Do you even know who did play for Canada and the US this year?

Obviously you don't know who didn't

[sibiriak]

Obviously you don't know who didn't

Yes, why bother looking up actual info, when you can just employ a kindergarten level comeback and stick to your preconceptions.
Please give me 3 forwards and 2 D and a goalie for Canada and/or the US, who would be obviously better than the ones there, and available and healthy? And remember that one of the long-term considerations for all teams at the Worlds is to see who can play at the 2014 Olympics, so obviously no 35+ year-olds were to be invited.

Edited by sibiriak, 21 May 2012 - 08:55 PM.

[Johnz96]

Yes, why bother looking up actual info, when you can just employ a kindergarten level comeback and stick to your preconceptions.
Please give me 3 forwards and 2 D and a goalie for Canada and/or the US, who would be obviously better than the ones there, and available and healthy? And remember that one of the long-term considerations for all teams at the Worlds is to see who can play at the 2014 Olympics, so obviously no 35+ year-olds were to be invited.

I gotta get going but off the top of my head here's some names Crosby, Iginla Stamkos, Kessel, Patrick Kane, Ryan Miller...

[FlashyG]

What "best veteran North Americans" didn't play that could have strengthened their teams? (Apart from the ones busy in the Stanley Cup playoffs or injured.)

Stamkos, Crosby, Giroux, Neal, Thornton, St. Louis, Staal, Hartnell, Iginla, Seguin, Lupul, Parenteau, Couture, Pietrangelo, Campbell, Weber, Boyle, Bieksa, Letang, Burns, Subban, Fleury, Luongo, or Price could have helped the Canadian team (some might have been injured but not all of them were)

For the US -
Kessel, Pominville, Kane, Wheeler, Cole, Pavelski, Backes, Oshie, Legwand, Stafford, Kesler, Malone, Foligno, Higgins, Umburger, Byfuglien, Suter, Shattenkirk, Carle, Leddy, Carlson, Gardiner, Bogosian, Thomas and Miller all could have helped.

I'm not sure why North American NHLers don't look at the WHC the same way their European counterparts do, but for whatever reason Canadian and American players don't seem to head overseas to represent their countries for the WHC. When every playoff round ends you seem to see European teams getting boosts to their rosters, but the North American's who get eliminated from the playoffs tend to stay home with a higher frequency.

Remember, Steve Yzerman was the GM of this team Canada, surely the players must realize that this may have been their last chance to audition for Sochi-2014? On paper, Canada and USA were "better" than Slovakia, Finland, or even Russia. Unfortunately for them, ice is more slippery than paper.

Steve Yzerman had absolutely nothing to do with Canada's team this year, it was picked and managed by the Oilers Kevin Lowe, and it also wasn't the last chance to audition for the Olympics, next years WHC championship and the next season and a half of NHL play will be the audition's for the NA teams. This WHC was fairly meaningless as far as Sochi is concerned unless you care about your ranking.

Edited by FlashyG, 21 May 2012 - 09:46 PM.

[sibiriak]

I gotta get going but off the top of my head here's some names Crosby, Iginla Stamkos, Kessel, Patrick Kane, Ryan Miller...

Canada:
Crosby - hurt, out of shape.
Iginla - too old.
Stamkos - hurt, will have surgery off season, IIRC.
Keep searching.

US:
Miller - in his current form is not an obvious improvement over Howard.
Kane and Kessel could've helped, I don't know their injury status.
Keep going, you still need 4 D 1.5 G and 4 F.

[FlashyG]

Canada:
Crosby - hurt, out of shape.
Iginla - too old.
Stamkos - hurt, will have surgery off season, IIRC.
Keep searching.

US:
Miller - in his current form is not an obvious improvement over Howard.
Kane and Kessel could've helped, I don't know their injury status.
Keep going, you still need 4 D 1.5 G and 4 F.

Crosby isn't hurt, and he was in good enough shape to play in the playoffs he's in good enough shape to play for Canada. He just doesn't want to because North American's don't care about the WHC.
Iginla isn't too old to play, the Russian team that won the championships had 5 players older or the same age as him on their roster.
Stamkos had an "irritated bursa sac" that he used as an excuse to not play at the tournament, if the Lightning had made the playoffs he'd still be playing without complaint.

Miller may not be better than Howard, but he'd give them a better 2nd option than Bachmann, and might have returned to the form he had at the Olympics.

[sibiriak]

Stamkos, Crosby, Giroux, Neal, Thornton, St. Louis, Staal, Hartnell, Iginla, Seguin, Lupul, Parenteau, Couture, Pietrangelo, Campbell, Weber, Boyle, Bieksa, Letang, Burns, Subban, Fleury, Luongo, or Price could have helped the Canadian team (some might have been injured but not all of them were)

Stamkos, Staal (Eric)-hurt, Crosby-said, he needed to finish rehab, Giroux, Hartnell, Pietrangelo, Weber were still playing, Thornton, Iginla, St.Louis, Boyle are too old, considering Sochi, Campbell - if that is a Boston one, you must be joking, Lupul, Parenteau, Couture are not obviously better than the forwards who were there. I agree that D and to a degree G could be better with the players you mentioned, but Cam Ward is no slouch either.

For the US -
Kessel, Pominville, Kane, Wheeler, Cole, Pavelski, Backes, Oshie, Legwand, Stafford, Kesler, Malone, Foligno, Higgins, Umburger, Byfuglien, Suter, Shattenkirk, Carle, Leddy, Carlson, Gardiner, Bogosian, Thomas and Miller all could have helped.

Thomas is too old for Sochi, Miller is not better than Howard this season.
E.Kane was there, I don't know if P.Kane was healthy.
Stafford, Kesler, Cole (Carolina one) were either hurt or fresh out of rehab.
Byfuglien had legal issues.
Wheeler, Foligno, Malone, Umburger, Leddy, Gardiner were not obviously better than the players already there,
Carlson(IIRC), Suter, Shattenkirk, Oshie, Legwand, Backes were still playing.
So that leaves Kessel, Pavelski, maybe P.Kane, Higgins. All good players but hardly any more valuable to their team than the players other teams were missing. More notable ones: Backstrom (G), Kiprusoff, Pitkanen, Hamrlik, T.Ruutu, Edler, Murray, Paajarvi, Enstrom, Hossa, Visnovsky, Jurcina, Meszaros, Halak, Hornquist, A.Markov, Radulov, Voynov and I'm sure i forgot many more.

I'm not sure why North American NHLers don't look at the WHC the same way their European counterparts do, but for whatever reason Canadian and American players don't seem to head overseas to represent their countries for the WHC. When every playoff round ends you seem to see European teams getting boosts to their rosters, but the North American's who get eliminated from the playoffs tend to stay home with a higher frequency.

That's true, but it's really your own internal problem. If Hockey USA or Hockey Canada can't assemble the best team possible, who's to blame?

Steve Yzerman had absolutely nothing to do with Canada's team this year, it was picked and managed by the Oilers Kevin Lowe, and it also wasn't the last chance to audition for the Olympics, next years WHC championship and the next season and a half of NHL play will be the audition's for the NA teams. This WHC was fairly meaningless as far as Sochi is concerned unless you care about your ranking.

http://www.tsn.ca/canadian_hockey/feature/?id=63060
According to this, Yzerman is an executive director, and Lowe is just one of a large
management group.
And I remember Yzerman saying that WHC participation will be an important consideration when determining the Olympic roster. After this WHC there's only one more left before the Olympics, and who knows what players will be able to go in 2013. They may be going deep into the playoffs, have injuries, or they just may not be picked next year. That's what I mean when i say this may have been the last chance at an Olympic audition for many NHLers.

[sibiriak]

Crosby isn't hurt, and he was in good enough shape to play in the playoffs he's in good enough shape to play for Canada. He just doesn't want to because North American's don't care about the WHC.
Iginla isn't too old to play, the Russian team that won the championships had 5 players older or the same age as him on their roster.
Stamkos had an "irritated bursa sac" that he used as an excuse to not play at the tournament, if the Lightning had made the playoffs he'd still be playing without complaint.

Miller may not be better than Howard, but he'd give them a better 2nd option than Bachmann, and might have returned to the form he had at the Olympics.

Crosby said that he needed full preseason prep to get to his best shape. He clearly was far from 100%, even if he came back for the playoffs.
Iginla is a year older than the oldest Russian player on the championship team - who was Datsyuk. Iginla will be coming up on 35 by the time Olympics roll around. He may still make the Olympic team, but I doubt it.
Re: STAMKOS, I'm not a doctor, so I have to take players at their word, when they say they are too hurt to play.
Miller sucked pretty much all sesson, so there's a very low probability that he'd have come in and played much better than Howard did, so I doubt that his being there would have changed the outcome for the US.

[sibiriak]

Stamkos, Crosby, Giroux, Neal, Thornton, St. Louis, Staal, Hartnell, Iginla, Seguin, Lupul, Parenteau, Couture, Pietrangelo, Campbell, Weber, Boyle, Bieksa, Letang, Burns, Subban, Fleury, Luongo, or Price could have helped the Canadian team (some might have been injured but not all of them were)

For the US -
Kessel, Pominville, Kane, Wheeler, Cole, Pavelski, Backes, Oshie, Legwand, Stafford, Kesler, Malone, Foligno, Higgins, Umburger, Byfuglien, Suter, Shattenkirk, Carle, Leddy, Carlson, Gardiner, Bogosian, Thomas and Miller all could have helped.

I'm not sure why North American NHLers don't look at the WHC the same way their European counterparts do, but for whatever reason Canadian and American players don't seem to head overseas to represent their countries for the WHC. When every playoff round ends you seem to see European teams getting boosts to their rosters, but the North American's who get eliminated from the playoffs tend to stay home with a higher frequency.



Steve Yzerman had absolutely nothing to do with Canada's team this year, it was picked and managed by the Oilers Kevin Lowe, and it also wasn't the last chance to audition for the Olympics, next years WHC championship and the next season and a half of NHL play will be the audition's for the NA teams. This WHC was fairly meaningless as far as Sochi is concerned unless you care about your ranking.

Also, my original question to Johnz96 (before you jumped into the discussion ) was:"What "best veteran North Americans" didn't play that could have strengthened their teams? (Apart from the ones busy in the Stanley Cup playoffs or injured.)"
Stamkos, Giroux, Neal, Seguin, Lupul, Parenteau, Couture, Pietrangelo, Subban, Price, Kessel, Pominville, Kane, Wheeler, Pavelski, Oshie, Stafford, Malone, Foligno, Higgins, Shattenkirk, Carle, Leddy, Carlson, Gardiner, Bogosian are hardly veterans.

[Heaten]

I don't understand all the negativity and chicken little atmosphere? Red Wings have some of the best looking prospects we've seen in 20 years, lots of money to spend on talent, and some wonderful UFA available.... and many DRW players hitting their prime or in the prime of their careers.

This is a time to be excited!!!

Edited by Heaten, 21 May 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[R-Dizzle]

When they start to not make the playoffs, then I'll really start to worry. (Love to see this board if that ever happens.) Like what someone else said, you can't win every year, especially how the league is today.

Edited by R-Dizzle, 21 May 2012 - 11:50 PM.

[Richdg]

Stamkos, Staal (Eric)-hurt, Crosby-said, he needed to finish rehab, Giroux, Hartnell, Pietrangelo, Weber were still playing, Thornton, Iginla, St.Louis, Boyle are too old, considering Sochi, Campbell - if that is a Boston one, you must be joking, Lupul, Parenteau, Couture are not obviously better than the forwards who were there. I agree that D and to a degree G could be better with the players you mentioned, but Cam Ward is no slouch either.

Thomas is too old for Sochi, Miller is not better than Howard this season.
E.Kane was there, I don't know if P.Kane was healthy.
Stafford, Kesler, Cole (Carolina one) were either hurt or fresh out of rehab.
Byfuglien had legal issues.
Wheeler, Foligno, Malone, Umburger, Leddy, Gardiner were not obviously better than the players already there,
Carlson(IIRC), Suter, Shattenkirk, Oshie, Legwand, Backes were still playing.
So that leaves Kessel, Pavelski, maybe P.Kane, Higgins. All good players but hardly any more valuable to their team than the players other teams were missing. More notable ones: Backstrom (G), Kiprusoff, Pitkanen, Hamrlik, T.Ruutu, Edler, Murray, Paajarvi, Enstrom, Hossa, Visnovsky, Jurcina, Meszaros, Halak, Hornquist, A.Markov, Radulov, Voynov and I'm sure i forgot many more.

That's true, but it's really your own internal problem. If Hockey USA or Hockey Canada can't assemble the best team possible, who's to blame?



http://www.tsn.ca/ca...ature/?id=63060
According to this, Yzerman is an executive director, and Lowe is just one of a large
management group.
And I remember Yzerman saying that WHC participation will be an important consideration when determining the Olympic roster. After this WHC there's only one more left before the Olympics, and who knows what players will be able to go in 2013. They may be going deep into the playoffs, have injuries, or they just may not be picked next year. That's what I mean when i say this may have been the last chance at an Olympic audition for many NHLers.

Just a quick example. STL and Wash lost in the same round. Semin went and backes did not.

[FlashyG]

Stamkos, Staal (Eric)-hurt, Crosby-said, he needed to finish rehab, Giroux, Hartnell, Pietrangelo, Weber were still playing, Thornton, Iginla, St.Louis, Boyle are too old, considering Sochi, Campbell - if that is a Boston one, you must be joking, Lupul, Parenteau, Couture are not obviously better than the forwards who were there. I agree that D and to a degree G could be better with the players you mentioned, but Cam Ward is no slouch either.

Players always claim their injuries are worse than they are to avoid going to the tournament. You don't see European players making excuses to get out of going. Stamkos and Crosby could definitely have played, and would have if it was the Olympics. Giroux, Pietrangelo and Weber all could have come over once they were eliminated much like Ovechkin and Semin did when they were ousted in the same round. Brian Campbell could have done the same when Florida was eliminated in the 1st round.

If you don't think Lupul, Couture and Parenteau are better than Teddy Purcell, Andrew Ladd and Alexadre Burrows we don't need to discuss this any further.

As far as too old for Sochi, I don't see what your point is? Sochi is 2 years out and Canada won't start to put its team together until a couple months before the games. With the CBA being negotiated we don't even know if NHL players will be at the games at all. Also how can you ask what veterans would help the team and then dismiss them as too old?

Rick Nash could have been added as well.

Thomas is too old for Sochi, Miller is not better than Howard this season.
E.Kane was there, I don't know if P.Kane was healthy.
Stafford, Kesler, Cole (Carolina one) were either hurt or fresh out of rehab.
Byfuglien had legal issues.
Wheeler, Foligno, Malone, Umburger, Leddy, Gardiner were not obviously better than the players already there,
Carlson(IIRC), Suter, Shattenkirk, Oshie, Legwand, Backes were still playing.
So that leaves Kessel, Pavelski, maybe P.Kane, Higgins. All good players but hardly any more valuable to their team than the players other teams were missing. More notable ones: Backstrom (G), Kiprusoff, Pitkanen, Hamrlik, T.Ruutu, Edler, Murray, Paajarvi, Enstrom, Hossa, Visnovsky, Jurcina, Meszaros, Halak, Hornquist, A.Markov, Radulov, Voynov and I'm sure i forgot many more.

Miller is better than Bachmann, Thomas may be too old for Sochi, but he wasn't too old for this tournament. Patrick Kane is partying in Chicago right now and his drunken antics have been trending on twitter at times, he could absolutely have played and helped Team USA. Suter, Oshie,Legwand, Backes and Shattenkirk could have come over after being eliminated much like the others have done.

I didn't say other teams didn't have good players that stayed home either, Just that there is a higher volume of North Americans avoiding this tournament than Europeans.

That's true, but it's really your own internal problem. If Hockey USA or Hockey Canada can't assemble the best team possible, who's to blame?

The problem stems from North Americans not recognizing the tournament in the same light as the Olympics. Its timing conflicts with Hockey that we deem more important. Both Canada and the US will qualify for the Olympics no matter who they send to the WHC so we view them as practice tournaments for the one that matters every 4 years.

http://www.tsn.ca/ca...ature/?id=63060
According to this, Yzerman is an executive director, and Lowe is just one of a large
management group.
And I remember Yzerman saying that WHC participation will be an important consideration when determining the Olympic roster. After this WHC there's only one more left before the Olympics, and who knows what players will be able to go in 2013. They may be going deep into the playoffs, have injuries, or they just may not be picked next year. That's what I mean when i say this may have been the last chance at an Olympic audition for many NHLers.

Yzerman is the Executive Director of Team Canada in name, but for tournaments like this he doesn't pick the team, it was Kevin Lowe running the show for WHC and Yzerman for the the games that matter. Team Canada is picked almost exclusively based on play in the NHL. Someone could set WHC tournament records for scoring but if they have a rough NHL season next year and the partial season in 2014 they won't be going to the games.

There isn't anyone who is going to earn a spot on an Olympic team for 2014 with play in 2012.

This thread has been derailed enough, if you want to continue this, you should probably make a new thread

Edited by FlashyG, 21 May 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[Richdg]

I don't understand all the negativity and chicken little atmosphere? Red Wings have some of the best looking prospects we've seen in 20 years, lots of money to spend on talent, and some wonderful UFA available.... and many DRW players hitting their prime or in the prime of their careers.

This is a time to be excited!!!

Best prospects? Sorry but we just don't know if any will turn out. We have hope for Smith and Nyquist, but the rest are so far away you can't tell. Most have yet to play a single professional hockey game. We have 5 about to hit the prime of their careers, 3 of which will be UFA's next season.

Players always claim their injuries are worse than they are to avoid going to the tournament. You don't see European players making excuses to get out of going. Stamkos and Crosby could definitely have played, and would have if it was the Olympics. Giroux, Pietrangelo and Weber all could have come over once they were eliminated much like Ovechkin and Semin did when they were ousted in the same round. Brian Campbell could have done the same when Florida was eliminated in the 1st round.

If you don't think Lupul, Couture and Parenteau are better than Teddy Purcell, Andrew Ladd and Alexadre Burrows we don't need to discuss this any further.

As far as too old for Sochi, I don't see what your point is? Sochi is 2 years out and Canada won't start to put its team together until a couple months before the games. With the CBA being negotiated we don't even know if NHL players will be at the games at all. Also how can you ask what veterans would help the team and then dismiss them as too old?

Rick Nash could have been added as well.



Miller is better than Bachmann, Thomas may be too old for Sochi, but he wasn't too old for this tournament. Patrick Kane is partying in Chicago right now and his drunken antics have been trending on twitter at times, he could absolutely have played and helped Team USA. Suter, Oshie,Legwand, Backes and Shattenkirk could have come over after being eliminated much like the others have done.

I didn't say other teams didn't have good players that stayed home either, Just that there is a higher volume of North Americans avoiding this tournament than Europeans.



The problem stems from North Americans not recognizing the tournament in the same light as the Olympics. Its timing conflicts with Hockey that we deem more important. Both Canada and the US will qualify for the Olympics no matter who they send to the WHC so we view them as practice tournaments for the one that matters every 4 years.



Yzerman is the Executive Director of Team Canada in name, but for tournaments like this he doesn't pick the team, it was Kevin Lowe running the show for WHC and Yzerman for the the games that matter. Team Canada is picked almost exclusively based on play in the NHL. Someone could set WHC tournament records for scoring but if they have a rough NHL season next year and the partial season in 2014 they won't be going to the games.

There isn't anyone who is going to earn a spot on an Olympic team for 2014 with play in 2012.

This thread has been derailed enough, if you want to continue this, you should probably make a new thread

No! Not a new thread! The thread police will come out and attack you! Which btw makes zero sense. What is the purpose of a forum if you can't make new threads?????

[FlashyG]

Best prospects? Sorry but we just don't know if any will turn out. We have hope for Smith and Nyquist, but the rest are so far away you can't tell. Most have yet to play a single professional hockey game. We have 5 about to hit the prime of their careers, 3 of which will be UFA's next season.

Whether they all turn out doesn't matter. We have far more prospects in our system now than we have during our entire playoff streak.

Given our managements success rate of turning projects into NHL players there is no reason not to be excited about the future of the Wings. Our core is going to be around for 3-5 years at the minimum giving these kids plenty of time to develop.

[Heaten]

Best prospects? Sorry but we just don't know if any will turn out. We have hope for Smith and Nyquist, but the rest are so far away you can't tell. Most have yet to play a single professional hockey game. We have 5 about to hit the prime of their careers, 3 of which will be UFA's next season.

No team in the NHL (aside from the teams that get top10 picks every year) have "sure fire" NHLers in their farm system. That doesn't change the fact that DRWs have some of the best looking prospects they've had in 20 years. Besides Yzerman, who was Detroit's "sure fire" pick? Red Wings currently have two NHLers in the farm named Smith and Nyquist. Whether or not they are future stars, nobody knows. But they sure as hell will be NHLers. You'd have to very ignorant about hockey to not see this.

5 players hitting the prime of their careers is pretty amazing. Nothing to be all chicken little about, that's for sure. You also conveniently forgot to rebut on the cap space DRWs have.... doesn't fit into your agenda?

You are really blinded by negativity. It must be miserable being you.

You sound like a guy on another message forum named "Captain Bob", are you related?

Edited by Heaten, 22 May 2012 - 12:19 AM.