Excellent 'Parise and Suter to Detroit' article

[centcougar07 216]

20 mil what? A year?

And 7 million isn't such a discount. They are perhaps leaving a few million off the table to play together and for a team with a history of winning and a group of guys who know what it takes to win. You don't get that from many other clubs.

I'm sorry but having a "tradition of winning" isn't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on when the season starts. Everyone is 0-0. It tradition was a factor as you are trying to present, then every top FA would want to sign with Montreal or Toronto. It's a nice thought but I don't see how history would convince a FA to sign or not sign in the present. It's about the here and now and then the future, IMO.

http://www.detroitne...0354/1128/rss16

It sounds like Parise and Suter really are a package deal. It sounds like Detroit really is one of the very few teams that interests them (has the cap space, a winning tradition, and both - more or less - grew up in Ann Arbor). It sounds like this might be something that actually ends up happening...and which could have been in the works for some time?

Because me for being an addict, LINES!

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR ROSTER

My Custom Lineup

FORWARDS

Zach Parise ($7.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)

Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m)

Justin Abdelkader ($1.300m) / Darren Helm ($1.400m) / Power Forward? ($2.000m)

Power Forward? ($2.000m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m) / Power Forward? ($2.000m)

DEFENSEMEN

Nicklas Lidstrom ($5.000m) / Ryan Suter ($7.000m)

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ian White ($2.875m)

Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)

Backup Goalie? ($1.000m)

------

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)

(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)

SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,846,212; BONUSES: $37,500

CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $453,788

Explanation:

If we're able to sign Parise and Suter, the top six is set (Parise replaces Bertuzzi on the first line, Nyquist replaces Hudler on the second line); and - assuming Lidstrom resigns - the defensive pairings are set (Suter replaces Stuart, Smith replaces Quincey). But the bottom six isn't yet in order.

I like Helm as our third line center. He's one of the best defensive centers in the game. Let's resign him (an RFA) to about a 0.5mil raise. I like Emmerton as our fourth line center. He's sort of like a young Helm in many ways. Let's keep him there. And I like Abdelkader as a bottom six winger. He's big, strong, and great defensively (though he could be more physical). Let's resign him (an RFA) to about a 0.5 mil raise. But now we've got some issues.

I DO NOT like Cleary, Bertuzzi, Eaves, Miller or Mursak as bottom-six wingers. I want three new, big, strong, physical, defensively sound power forwards to go along with Abdelkader as our bottom-six wingers. If we move the aforementioned players, we'll have over 6mil to spend on these three power forwards. Should be well more than enough to get us what we want. It'll be harder to move some than others, but I do think that all of the aforementioned players are movable (worst case scenario, send them and their cap-hits through waivers en route to gr).

THAT's how we catch up to the rest of the league.

How did either of them grow up in Ann Arbor?

[wingslogo19 281]

Get it done Kenny

[Rick 42]

How did either of them grow up in Ann Arbor?

Its because USA Hockey's National Team Development Program IS IN Ann Arbor. They do an Under 18 team and an Under 17 team. The teams play from september til march. almost half the games are played in Ann Arbor. What that means is that as 16 and 17 year olds they spent a lot of time in Ann Arbor a couple years in a row doing what teenagers do. growing up. ffs.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Rick

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

I'm sorry but having a "tradition of winning" isn't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on when the season starts. Everyone is 0-0. It tradition was a factor as you are trying to present, then every top FA would want to sign with Montreal or Toronto. It's a nice thought but I don't see how history would convince a FA to sign or not sign in the present. It's about the here and now and then the future, IMO.

Neither the Canadiens or Maple Leafs have a history of winning in recent memory. I thought it was incredibly obvious what I was referring to.

And I also never said that tradition meant they would be "flocking" here. I said it would give them an advantage over other teams.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Nice to dream, would be sick if we landed em both though. Ideally for me:

Trade Ericsson+Miller to Buffalo for a 2nd, with Suter coming in no real need for Big E anymore.

Sign Parise, Suter and Prust.

Parise-Datsyuk-Nyquist

Filppula-Zetterberg-Franzen

Bertuzzi-Helm-Cleary

Prust-Abdelkader-Eaves

Emmerton

Lidstrom-Smith

Suter-Kronwall

White-Quincey

Kindl

Howard

McDonald

f*** with that, NHL.

[kylee 727]

I never once understood a player growing up in a given area as a compelling reason to play for a sports team. With that said, I'd venture my opinion and say were MUCH more likely to sign suter than parise.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Nice to dream, would be sick if we landed em both though. Ideally for me:

Trade Ericsson+Miller to Buffalo for a 2nd, with Suter coming in no real need for Big E anymore.

Sign Parise, Suter and Prust.

Parise-Datsyuk-Nyquist

Filppula-Zetterberg-Franzen

Bertuzzi-Helm-Cleary

Prust-Abdelkader-Eaves

Emmerton

Lidstrom-Smith

Suter-Kronwall

White-Quincey

Kindl

Howard

McDonald

f*** with that, NHL.

You think Smith is ready for the top pairing?

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

You think Smith is ready for the top pairing?

No, but I think it'd be better for him to play opposite Nick then Quincey or White.

[centcougar07 216]

Neither the Canadiens or Maple Leafs have a history of winning in recent memory. I thought it was incredibly obvious what I was referring to.

And I also never said that tradition meant they would be "flocking" here. I said it would give them an advantage over other teams.

What do you mean winning? We haven't got out of the second round of the playoffs in 3 years. I mean sure we've won in the regular season but recently, we haven't done much in the playoffs.

How does it give us an advantage?

[rick zombo 3,739]

What do you mean winning? We haven't got out of the second round of the playoffs in 3 years. I mean sure we've won in the regular season but recently, we haven't done much in the playoffs.

How does it give us an advantage?

Why don't you ask Rafalski what he was thinking in July of 2007?

[VM1138 1,921]

Perhaps, but there's no way they will both accept such a discount, unless it's for one year only, like Selanne and Kariya once did. But put yourself in their shoes, is Detroit the best place for their one shot at a Cup together? Because at that price (14 mil for both) they can have their pick of ANY NHL team they want. And right now Detroit doesn't look like the team most poised to win the Cup next year.

And to sign them both long-term, the price tag will START at 20 mil.

Cap hit is what we're talking. We could fanagle a contract to get them both to 7 or 7.5 a year easily.

And they'd take that over making 8, 8.5 separately I bet.

I'm sorry but having a "tradition of winning" isn't worth a velvet painting of a whale and a dolphin getting it on when the season starts. Everyone is 0-0. It tradition was a factor as you are trying to present, then every top FA would want to sign with Montreal or Toronto. It's a nice thought but I don't see how history would convince a FA to sign or not sign in the present. It's about the here and now and then the future, IMO.

Really? Unless you're a mercenary who doesn't care if you win or lose, it matters.

For anyone who actually watches the Wings, it's obvious they had some pretty significant fluke seasons (injuries in '10, refs in the playoffs, injuries in '11, epic comeback in playoffs) and are only a few players away from the Cup again.

And I can only speak for myself, but if I had the choice to go play for an Original 6 team over a team like Anaheim, all things considered equal, I go to the Original 6 team.

Fact is, no other teams have been consistently better than the Wings the last 20 or even 5 years. A handful of teams are up there with the Wings (San Jose, Rangers, Boston) but that's about it. So yeah, a history of winning matters.

[sibiriak 84]

That is crap. Neither of them will be offered 10 million a year. They are great players but they aren't at the same level as the Crosbys and Stamkos's of the league.

Here are the comparable (in terms of production) players and their salaries:

Zetterberg: actual salary next year 7.1 mil. cap hit 6.08 due to conrtact length gimmick that the league will not toleraate anymore, as they showed with Kovalchuk's contract.

D.Sedin 6.1 mil./ 6.1

E.Staal 8.5 / 8.25

Kovalchuk 11.0 / 6.67

Iginla 7.0 /7.0 that contract was signed waay back.

Sharp 6.0 / 5.9

Parise is younger than all of them, but Sharp, and to sign him long term would require an increase, at least 20%, over what those guys are making. So if we take a conservative route, average of all the above players, Parise's agent would ask for 10 and won't come down below 8.5.

Given that Parise is THE premiere forward UFA this season, I would expect that he will get closer to the asking price than the minimum one.

The final number will be modified by playing with throwaway years on the contract and such, but with the league shown displeasure with such doings, I expect that the cap number will be close to the real salary.

Now Suter.

His comparables: Weber 7.5/7.5 (1 yr and RFA only would command way more for the long-term UFA contract)

Hamhius 5.0 / 4.5

Letang 3.5 / 3.5 (signed as RFA, so UFA contract would be much higher)

Keith 8.0 / 5.5

Seabrook 7.0 / 5.8

So an average of these 5 +20% is 7.5 and Weber's and Letangs number are too low. So Suter's agent will start with 9.5 and come down to no less than 8.25. Again, Suter is THE best UFA defenseman this year, so he is likely to command closer to 9 mil. than 8. Again, I assume that the real salary does not get too different from the cap hit.

So, assuming a long term contract, Parise will cost 9-10 mil, and Suter 8.5-9. Together they will command 17.5-19 mil. If they decide that Detroit only needs to add the two of them to win the Cup next season, they may agree to a one year package deal at significantly less, but if you were in their shoes, which team would be the most likely to win next year with their addition? I doubt it's Detroit. And any GM in a league will do a lot to add those two. Including trading away major players if the cap limit demands it.

[DyingAlive 27]

Wake me up when its June 25th, all this speculation just puts more hope into something that is far from being decided.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Here are the comparable (in terms of production) players and their salaries:

Zetterberg: actual salary next year 7.1 mil. cap hit 6.08 due to conrtact length gimmick that the league will not toleraate anymore, as they showed with Kovalchuk's contract.

D.Sedin 6.1 mil./ 6.1

E.Staal 8.5 / 8.25

Kovalchuk 11.0 / 6.67

Iginla 7.0 /7.0 that contract was signed waay back.

Sharp 6.0 / 5.9

All with cap hits less than 10 million.

Parise is younger than all of them, but Sharp, and to sign him long term would require an increase, at least 20%, over what those guys are making. So if we take a conservative route, average of all the above players, Parise's agent would ask for 10 and won't come down below 8.5.

Cap hit wise it won't go that high. End of story.

Given that Parise is THE premiere forward UFA this season, I would expect that he will get closer to the asking price than the minimum one.

Depending on how much he wants to win. And he is not the "premiere forward" in the league, he is just the top free agent.

The final number will be modified by playing with throwaway years on the contract and such, but with the league shown displeasure with such doings, I expect that the cap number will be close to the real salary.

Kovalchuk's deal was obvious. Franzen's and Zetterberg's were not.

Now Suter.

His comparables: Weber 7.5/7.5 (1 yr and RFA only would command way more for the long-term UFA contract)

Hamhius 5.0 / 4.5

Letang 3.5 / 3.5 (signed as RFA, so UFA contract would be much higher)

Keith 8.0 / 5.5

Seabrook 7.0 / 5.8

Once again, none with a cap hit over 10 million.

So an average of these 5 +20% is 7.5 and Weber's and Letangs number are too low. So Suter's agent will start with 9.5 and come down to no less than 8.25. Again, Suter is THE best UFA defenseman this year, so he is likely to command closer to 9 mil. than 8. Again, I assume that the real salary does not get too different from the cap hit.

You are just making things up now. His cap hit will not be nearly as high.

So, assuming a long term contract, Parise will cost 9-10 mil, and Suter 8.5-9. Together they will command 17.5-19 mil. If they decide that Detroit only needs to add the two of them to win the Cup next season, they may agree to a one year package deal at significantly less, but if you were in their shoes, which team would be the most likely to win next year with their addition? I doubt it's Detroit. And any GM in a league will do a lot to add those two. Including trading away major players if the cap limit demands it.

Suter will not accept a short-term contract, and a short term contract will likely be more expensive because there is less guaranteed money.

They will receive between 7 and 8 million assuming they both are looking for contending clubs. Detroit will be one of those clubs.

[Guest Hatethedrake!]

Kenny signs both Suter and Parise to 10 year contracts worth 75 million.

Year 1: 10 mil

Year 2: 10 mil

Year 3: 10 mil

Year 4: 10 mil

Year 5: 10 mil

Year 6: 8 mil

Year 7: 8 mil

Year 8: 4 mil

Year 9: 3 mil

Year 10: 2 mil

[ozone923 31]

Good read, but just another one of those juicy on the surface types, with nothing really substantial within. I think that it is a very real possibility that both Parise and Suter come to Detroit, given the elite tier of our organization and our tradition, let alone the other factors. But there are so many other intangibles that its hard to say anything about it.

Do we have enough cap space? Yes.

Do we have what winners want? Yes.

Do we have a team good enough to attract them? Yes.

Would both players take a reduced salary to be on our team? Yes.

I seriously don't think that '7 million a year' is a 'discounted price' given that Lidstrom was getting paid 7.5 million a few years ago. A discounted price for Parise would be around 6 million and Suter around the same. I think Holland would have to give up his "nobody gets paid more than Lidstrom" shenanigans fo Suter to come on, obviously, and Lidstrom should be paid only 5 million this upcoming year, should he return. I say give them 6 million a year for 5 years and then we have a legitimate shot at the cup for the next 5 years. Haha.

Cheers

[centcougar07 216]

Good read, but just another one of those juicy on the surface types, with nothing really substantial within. I think that it is a very real possibility that both Parise and Suter come to Detroit, given the elite tier of our organization and our tradition, let alone the other factors. But there are so many other intangibles that its hard to say anything about it.

Do we have enough cap space? Yes.

Do we have what winners want? Yes.

Do we have a team good enough to attract them? Yes.

Would both players take a reduced salary to be on our team? Yes.

I seriously don't think that '7 million a year' is a 'discounted price' given that Lidstrom was getting paid 7.5 million a few years ago. A discounted price for Parise would be around 6 million and Suter around the same. I think Holland would have to give up his "nobody gets paid more than Lidstrom" shenanigans fo Suter to come on, obviously, and Lidstrom should be paid only 5 million this upcoming year, should he return. I say give them 6 million a year for 5 years and then we have a legitimate shot at the cup for the next 5 years. Haha.

Cheers

Discounted based on the fact that they will get higher offers from other teams.

[ozone923 31]

Discounted based on the fact that they will get higher offers from other teams.

Fair, but neither player is legitimately worth more than 7 million. I would argue that to the death. But I know this is a thin crop of free agents so their value skyrockets (but teams will eventually catch on, and won't risk f*cking their teams for centuries to come by overpaying.

[Jersey Wing 1,521]

If the Wings CAN pull this off I'll be the naked guy at the top of the Empire State Building jumping up and down.

Til' then......

[Red Wings Addict 787]

If the Wings CAN pull this off I'll be the naked guy at the top of the Empire State Building jumping up and down.

Til' then......

What's the punishment for that? Maybe we should start a Jersey Wing bail/fine donation box here on LGW, hehe.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

What do you mean winning? We haven't got out of the second round of the playoffs in 3 years. I mean sure we've won in the regular season but recently, we haven't done much in the playoffs.

How does it give us an advantage?

The Wings have proven more than anyone they have been able to bounce back after off seasons.

Before 97 they had plenty of early exits and playoff disappointments. Before 2001 they had the same. And before 2008 they had the same.

If Parise and Suter can understand how their impact would vault the Wings back to a Cup contender (which history has shown), they will definitely take a big look.

[centcougar07 216]

The Wings have proven more than anyone they have been able to bounce back after off seasons.

Before 97 they had plenty of early exits and playoff disappointments. Before 2001 they had the same. And before 2008 they had the same.

If Parise and Suter can understand how their impact would vault the Wings back to a Cup contender (which history has shown), they will definitely take a big look.

Fair enough and I see you point. But I don't think Parise and Suter make us favorites for the cup or anything. Do they give us a better chance? Sure. But who knows what would happen with the rest of our players. A lot of them have been showing signs of age and declining numbers wise. I think it will be very hard to convince two star players to potentially sign over the remainder of their careers to us when the future is so uncertain. I say uncertain because I think we all saw how old we looked in that series against Nashville this year. They beat us by winning races to pucks and being faster and quicker in general. I think age is definitely showing, and the prospect pool is less than exciting if you ask me. Smith is the closest thing we have to a sure thing and even he could slip to be only a middle/bottom pairing NHL defenseman. You can only preach the history of the organization for so long before top FA's are going to start asking questions about the future. Excuse me for being unpopular but if I was a top FA making possibly the most important decision of my life I'm going to want a little more than "don't worry, we've figured it out in the past, it'll all work out again somehow..."

I mean the history is great but the only appeal it would have to me is that I'd be part of a storied organization. But if I'm looking for a place to call home for the next 7-8 years, I don't really give a rats ass about what happened 10 years ago when I was still in high school. I want to know that we're going to be strong competitors for all those years. Ideally, I'd sign with a team that can win a little bit now and only get better as time goes on by inserting prospects into the lineup and sprinkling in other FA's if need be. Ken Holland is going to have a tougher sell job than you think IMO.

[xtrememachine1 795]

You can only preach the history of the organization for so long before top FA's are going to start asking questions about the future. Excuse me for being unpopular but if I was a top FA making possibly the most important decision of my life I'm going to want a little more than "don't worry, we've figured it out in the past, it'll all work out again somehow..."

I mean the history is great but the only appeal it would have to me is that I'd be part of a storied organization. But if I'm looking for a place to call home for the next 7-8 years, I don't really give a rats ass about what happened 10 years ago when I was still in high school. I want to know that we're going to be strong competitors for all those years. Ideally, I'd sign with a team that can win a little bit now and only get better as time goes on by inserting prospects into the lineup and sprinkling in other FA's if need be. Ken Holland is going to have a tougher sell job than you think IMO.

Just as an FYI, this franchise has been a winning for almost as long as these guys have been alive, so its been a little more than just 10 years. The Wings have been consistently winning and there's a reason for that. We have one of the best, if not, the best owner in hockey. He's willing to spend money and wants to be competitive, year in, year out. We have a fantastic front office that's made some remarkable trades and free agent signings to keep the team competitive all these years. We have one of the best group of scouts in the league. Despite all of their winning in the late 90's and early 2000's and drafting near the bottom of the first round (if in that round at all) built a new championship caliber team through the draft. No other franchise has all this in place. No other franchise can claim they won the Cup multiple times while at the same time built a new championship team through the draft to replace the players that retire. If you can't trust the Wings organization enough to sign with them, who can you trust? Who can you trust to be competitive for the next 5-8 years? Every other team in the league has rebuilt, fell apart and rebuilt again, while the Wings have consistently remained near the top. History should be a selling point. History tells them that this franchise knows what they're doing when it comes to building a winner and staying competitive.

[Nightfall 871]

Fair, but neither player is legitimately worth more than 7 million. I would argue that to the death. But I know this is a thin crop of free agents so their value skyrockets (but teams will eventually catch on, and won't risk f*cking their teams for centuries to come by overpaying.

I think you will find that Parise will get a $7 million dollar offer or two. Suter may well get a $6 million dollar offer. Hell, when Rafalski signed here for $5 million per season, he was offered $6 million to play for the devils.

I do agree with you that neither player is worth more than $7 million. I can also say that Holland won't offer either player $7 million. He will probably go $6 million at the most for Parise and around $5.5 million for Suter. If they want to play here, they will take a discount and play here. Otherwise, they can go to the bank of (insert team name here) like Khabibulin did.

[centcougar07 216]

Just as an FYI, this franchise has been a winning for almost as long as these guys have been alive, so its been a little more than just 10 years. The Wings have been consistently winning and there's a reason for that. We have one of the best, if not, the best owner in hockey. He's willing to spend money and wants to be competitive, year in, year out. We have a fantastic front office that's made some remarkable trades and free agent signings to keep the team competitive all these years. We have one of the best group of scouts in the league. Despite all of their winning in the late 90's and early 2000's and drafting near the bottom of the first round (if in that round at all) built a new championship caliber team through the draft. No other franchise has all this in place. No other franchise can claim they won the Cup multiple times while at the same time built a new championship team through the draft to replace the players that retire. If you can't trust the Wings organization enough to sign with them, who can you trust? Who can you trust to be competitive for the next 5-8 years? Every other team in the league has rebuilt, fell apart and rebuilt again, while the Wings have consistently remained near the top. History should be a selling point. History tells them that this franchise knows what they're doing when it comes to building a winner and staying competitive.

I'd rather go to a team that has a more solid future. Something tangible that I can see in front of me. Not just a promise that we "know what we're doing" because we were able to reload once before. Not good enough for me to sign away 6-7 years of my life.