295 replies to this topic

[ogreslayer]

Did not Abdelkder go straight from MSU to the Wings? yes he did.

Uh no, not really unless you're using the 2 games he played in the regular season in 2008 after leaving school as "straight to the Wings". He spent a good portion of 2 seasons in Grand Rapids.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/player.htm?id=8471716

If that really is the definition of straight to the Wings then, I guess we can say Riley Sheahan did the same thing.

[LeftWinger]

Think Carolina nabbed him.

Ya they did for 1 game last season...he becomes a RFA July 1st...

[LeftWinger]

Again, I'll gladly concede this entire discussion if you can provide me with even one piece of tangible evidence that PROVES either of these assertions. Saying it doesn't make it so. There is no way to compare Kindl to Schultz because Schultz has not played enough hockey at a competitive enough level, and there's nothing at all that says the kid will inevitably become "great" so long as he's on a pairing with Smith for a few years.

Everything you've said so far is pure speculation. Unless you've got some proof I'm not aware of.

Pretty please, explain to me how you can FACTUALLY make the assertions "Schultz is better than Kindl" and "Schultz will be great". Pretty please.

Also, and answer this honestly: Have you ever even seen this kid play one full hockey game?

Yes, purely speculation, but I have seen Kindl play plenty of times and he has failed every test so far... I do watch a fairly good amount of NCAA games, so yes I have seen him play a few, and he looks really really good to me, I suppose he could flop in the NHL, but so has Kindl. Schultz has the potential and can still prove himself, Kindl has done zilch to prove himself. He has been given plenty of chances to take a permanent spot on this team and he hasn't, my bad, he has, #7...

Will they be great? Maybe, but if I am going with a sub-million dollar #6 guy on his way out of the NHL and a #7 who just cannot stay in the lineup, I'd rather go with these three kids and let them grow into something that could be great that only comes by playing with each other everyday, every year, year after year. They just need the chance, and not just go stale in the AHL...

[Nightfall]

Yes, purely speculation, but I have seen Kindl play plenty of times and he has failed every test so far... I do watch a fairly good amount of NCAA games, so yes I have seen him play a few, and he looks really really good to me, I suppose he could flop in the NHL, but so has Kindl. Schultz has the potential and can still prove himself, Kindl has done zilch to prove himself. He has been given plenty of chances to take a permanent spot on this team and he hasn't, my bad, he has, #7...

Will they be great? Maybe, but if I am going with a sub-million dollar #6 guy on his way out of the NHL and a #7 who just cannot stay in the lineup, I'd rather go with these three kids and let them grow into something that could be great that only comes by playing with each other everyday, every year, year after year. They just need the chance, and not just go stale in the AHL...

Aside from your feelings that are purely speculative....

I do agree with what you are saying. I was a strong supporter of having Smith in the lineup, and I would have put him with Lidstrom all season. Give him a chance to learn from the best and get top line minutes. He is going to have to go through the ringer sooner or later, and it may as well be sooner. That being said, I can also see value in assigning them in the AHL and getting better there. We have a wealth of players who have done that tour before and are successful today (Kronwall, Flip, and Hudler just to name a few).

Some people are fans of one way or the other. I am a fan of both because you get results both ways.

[kipwinger]

Aside from your feelings that are purely speculative....

I do agree with what you are saying. I was a strong supporter of having Smith in the lineup, and I would have put him with Lidstrom all season. Give him a chance to learn from the best and get top line minutes. He is going to have to go through the ringer sooner or later, and it may as well be sooner. That being said, I can also see value in assigning them in the AHL and getting better there. We have a wealth of players who have done that tour before and are successful today (Kronwall, Flip, and Hudler just to name a few).

Some people are fans of one way or the other. I am a fan of both because you get results both ways.

That's the thing, nobody gets results by promoting guys straight from the NCAA to the NHL. Who has done that successfully? I can't even think of two or three instances in which that has worked out, let alone enough to say you get results either way.

Unless you're an elite talent, you don't go straight from the CHL or NCAA to the NHL without a development period in between. If people think Schultz is that good then fine, but I certainly have no reason to believe he's ready to be named in the same sentence as superstars capable of that.

[dirtydangles]

Just putting things in perspective:

Kronner played less than 2 seasons in GR, Fil played 1 season in GR. Nyquist and Smith (assuming they stay up permanent) each played 1 season in GR. Dats, Z, Franzen played a total of 0 AHL games before joining the wings. Heck, Ericsson (the last pick in the draft) played less than 2.5 seasons in GR.

I think at this point, you could offer a 2way contract for first year and guarantee 1way after that. kinda like what they gave macdonald. At least that guarantees him that in the future he will be a part of the team and has the opportunity to make the big team this year if he brings it.

3 year deal (1st year 2way) and give him the opportunity to earn it in his first year. I just don't want to see some aging UFA dman absorb a spot on our d for 3 years to come. Sign a stop gap for the third pairing for a 1 year contract and let Kindl and him battle it out (so kindl doesn't rot away).

[kipwinger]

Yes, purely speculation, but I have seen Kindl play plenty of times and he has failed every test so far... I do watch a fairly good amount of NCAA games, so yes I have seen him play a few, and he looks really really good to me, I suppose he could flop in the NHL, but so has Kindl. Schultz has the potential and can still prove himself, Kindl has done zilch to prove himself. He has been given plenty of chances to take a permanent spot on this team and he hasn't, my bad, he has, #7...

Will they be great? Maybe, but if I am going with a sub-million dollar #6 guy on his way out of the NHL and a #7 who just cannot stay in the lineup, I'd rather go with these three kids and let them grow into something that could be great that only comes by playing with each other everyday, every year, year after year. They just need the chance, and not just go stale in the AHL...

Kindl's numbers in his first full year in the league were as good or better than anything Ericsson managed to do in his first four seasons in the league. Back then Ericsson was the whipping boy, and now everyone seems to agree that he's developed into a valuable defenseman. Kindl is further along now than Ericsson was at a similar point in his career and I think it's pretty clear to everyone how much patience with Ericsson's development has paid off. Why not give Kindl that same development trajectory? It's not like he's holding anybody back, Smith will compete and perhaps start over him this coming season. But I certainly don't think that he's a lost cause who's "flopped" or "failed every test", and should be immediately replaced by a college kid with no known quantity in professional hockey.

[kipwinger]

Just putting things in perspective:

Kronner played less than 2 seasons in GR, Fil played 1 season in GR. Nyquist and Smith (assuming they stay up permanent) each played 1 season in GR. Dats, Z, Franzen played a total of 0 AHL games before joining the wings. Heck, Ericsson (the last pick in the draft) played less than 2.5 seasons in GR.

I think at this point, you could offer a 2way contract for first year and guarantee 1way after that. kinda like what they gave macdonald. At least that guarantees him that in the future he will be a part of the team and has the opportunity to make the big team this year if he brings it.

3 year deal (1st year 2way) and give him the opportunity to earn it in his first year. I just don't want to see some aging UFA dman absorb a spot on our d for 3 years to come. Sign a stop gap for the third pairing for a 1 year contract and let Kindl and him battle it out (so kindl doesn't rot away).

Datyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen all played in PROFESSIONAL hockey leagues (Swedish Elite League, and Russian Superleague) in their respective countries, it's misleading to suggest that they didn't have sufficient professional development. If Schultz wants to develop in the SEL or KHL instead of the AHL I'm fine with that too. The point is, he needs to prove himself in a professional league before being given a spot on an NHL roster.

Edited by kipwinger, 07 June 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[Majsheppard]

E impressed at times, but still isn't worth his contract. This year I think you can expect him to be...

[dirtydangles]

Datyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen all played in PROFESSIONAL hockey leagues (Swedish Elite League, and Russian Superleague) in their respective countries, it's misleading to suggest that they didn't have sufficient professional development. If Schultz wants to develop in the SEL or KHL instead of the AHL I'm fine with that too. The point is, he needs to prove himself in a professional league before being given a spot on an NHL roster.

So has jarnkrok but he still has to dp ahl the season after this. Its all relative. I was just giving examples. The second half of my post u ignored in which i said 2 way contract.

[kipwinger]

So has jarnkrok but he still has to dp ahl the season after this. Its all relative. I was just giving examples. The second half of my post u ignored in which i said 2 way contract.

Haha I didn't ignore it. I said the exact same thing on page three. Try actually reading the discussion before jumping into the middle of it and being argumentative. You might find that you've totally misunderstood the entire conversation from the beginning.

All I've ever said was that he should be signed, given a try out in camp, and forced to earn his position on the Wings roster or else develop more in the AHL.

Thanks for playing. Next.

[Majsheppard]

Datyuk, Zetterberg, and Franzen all played in PROFESSIONAL hockey leagues (Swedish Elite League, and Russian Superleague) in their respective countries, it's misleading to suggest that they didn't have sufficient professional development. If Schultz wants to develop in the SEL or KHL instead of the AHL I'm fine with that too. The point is, he needs to prove himself in a professional league before being given a spot on an NHL roster.

I think it always should be compared to his competition. If Schultz has shown he is better he can play, if not he should go to the AHL. I wouldn't like to tell all our rookies that put in the professional league development that you can bypass the work to make it to the club... however if you let skillful players use skill for merit, then you have to let that play itself out in training camp. In the end the young players like Kindl and Smith have more of a chance to make this team with Schultz instead of Stuart or Lidstrom... so they shouldn't be overly worried with us giving a contract to Justin.

[kipwinger]

I think it always should be compared to his competition. If Schultz has shown he is better he can play, if not he should go to the AHL. I wouldn't like to tell all our rookies that put in the professional league development that you can bypass the work to make it to the club... however if you let skillful players use skill for merit, then you have to let that play itself out in training camp. In the end the young players like Kindl and Smith have more of a chance to make this team with Schultz instead of Stuart or Lidstrom... so they shouldn't be overly worried with us giving a contract to Justin.

Again, read through my posts, I don't disagree with you. I've said from the beginning that he should be offered a two way contract and given the opportunity to earn a spot in camp. But he absolutely should not be GUARANTEED NHL playing time without ever having played outside of the NCAA. That was what the whole debate was about from the beginning, whether or not he should be guaranteed playing time for the Red Wings as a condition for signing with the organization.

[Johnz96]

That's the thing, nobody gets results by promoting guys straight from the NCAA to the NHL. Who has done that successfully? I can't even think of two or three instances in which that has worked out, let alone enough to say you get results either way.

Unless you're an elite talent, you don't go straight from the CHL or NCAA to the NHL without a development period in between. If people think Schultz is that good then fine, but I certainly have no reason to believe he's ready to be named in the same sentence as superstars capable of that.

Kariya, Toews, Stasny, McDonagh, Gardiner, Gilroy, Carle, Oates, Wheeler are just a few that come to mind

Crosby also scored over 200 points in 121 games. Apples and oranges comparison.


Wow, you really do have a reading comprehension problem.

I said that they should sign up, you agree.
I said that he is a prospect, you agree.
I said that he should be in Grand Rapids, you agree.

I guess that means we are both pro hockey scouts and coaches to mention the obvious.

Crosby scored 200 points in 121 games playing forward against kids in the jrs. There is a big difference in production between defensemen and forwards and a big difference in producing in the jrs compared to the NCAA

[kipwinger]

Kariya, Toews, Stasny, McDonagh, Gardiner, Gilroy, Carle, Oates, Wheeler are just a few that come to mind



Crosby scored 200 points in 121 games playing forward against kids in the jrs. There is a big difference in production between defensemen and forwards and a big difference in producing in the jrs compared to the NCAA

If you think the kid is good enough to be comparable to those players then by all means, your point is valid. I've heard nothing to suggest that he's as good as all that, so I'd rather see him develop first. I've said all along, if he's in the company of superstars at this stage in his career then give him a contract. However, based on the (limited) information I have about the kid, it doesn't seem like he's in that category.

[LeftWinger]

I maintain that Holland should sign all three of DeKeyser, Schultz and Welsh. Whether they play here or GR, these three kids need to be in this organization...

(and know, Welsh is not a Hurricane, well, he will be a RFA on July 1st.)

[kipwinger]

I maintain that Holland should sign all three of DeKeyser, Schultz and Welsh. Whether they play here or GR, these three kids need to be in this organization...

(and know, Welsh is not a Hurricane, well, he will be a RFA on July 1st.)

Haha, well we can both agree on that. I just don't like the idea of guaranteeing a guy playing time as a condition for signing. If they get signed and earn their spots on the big club...all the better for us.

[dirtydangles]

Haha I didn't ignore it. I said the exact same thing on page three. Try actually reading the discussion before jumping into the middle of it and being argumentative. You might find that you've totally misunderstood the entire conversation from the beginning.

All I've ever said was that he should be signed, given a try out in camp, and forced to earn his position on the Wings roster or else develop more in the AHL.

Thanks for playing. Next.

Lol ur actually one of the most aggravating posters around lgw. I was talking about the type of contract he would receive. Not the fact that he had to earn his spot. We had already established that as you said. I was discussing what type of contract would be awarded. I was saying 3 year to give length to schultz and the security with the first year being 2 way. You just ignore the things in people's posts that make the post relevant and see the bare bones. stop being rude. we are all here to discuss. i doubt you would act like this if you talked to people in person or in the workplace.

[Nightfall]

Crosby scored 200 points in 121 games playing forward against kids in the jrs. There is a big difference in production between defensemen and forwards and a big difference in producing in the jrs compared to the NCAA

Very true, which is why comparing point totals in juniors/NCAA to NHL success is not the right way to go.

[Nightfall]

Just putting things in perspective:

Kronner played less than 2 seasons in GR, Fil played 1 season in GR. Nyquist and Smith (assuming they stay up permanent) each played 1 season in GR. Dats, Z, Franzen played a total of 0 AHL games before joining the wings. Heck, Ericsson (the last pick in the draft) played less than 2.5 seasons in GR.

I think at this point, you could offer a 2way contract for first year and guarantee 1way after that. kinda like what they gave macdonald. At least that guarantees him that in the future he will be a part of the team and has the opportunity to make the big team this year if he brings it.

3 year deal (1st year 2way) and give him the opportunity to earn it in his first year. I just don't want to see some aging UFA dman absorb a spot on our d for 3 years to come. Sign a stop gap for the third pairing for a 1 year contract and let Kindl and him battle it out (so kindl doesn't rot away).

Actually this was Smiths second season with the Griffins last year. I really like the idea though of calling up players if they excel at the AHL level. Kronner, Fil, and Nyquist were all doing very well at the level. Heck, Abdelkader did as well for comparisons sake when he scored 76 points in 109 games in the AHL. Yet he hasn't had the point totals at the NHL level.

I like the idea of a 3 year deal though with those restrictions. I just don't like paying someone in that final year of the contract for a one way deal to the NHL at $875,000 or so. Especially if he hasn't panned out at the AHL level. Holland didn't spend to the cap last year, but he has been spending to the cap limit since the cap was put in place. Earmarking funds for a player that is unproven at the AHL level is very risky indeed.