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Nice Khan article previewing the off-season


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#41 LeftWinger

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 04:03 PM

Quincey is not going to sign here for less than $3.5M, Holland is a genius. Trade a 1st rounder for a guy, see if he helps or solidifies your D (he doesn't) then qualify him, let him explore RFA and sign elsewhere, receive a 1st AND a 3rd as compensation...you cannot script it better than that!

Pretty much, trade a 1st for him, trade him for a 1st and 3rd... I hope Columbus signs him!

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#42 Heaten

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:22 PM

Quincey is not going to sign here for less than $3.5M, Holland is a genius. Trade a 1st rounder for a guy, see if he helps or solidifies your D (he doesn't) then qualify him, let him explore RFA and sign elsewhere, receive a 1st AND a 3rd as compensation...you cannot script it better than that!

Pretty much, trade a 1st for him, trade him for a 1st and 3rd... I hope Columbus signs him!


The 1st that comes back might be a good one.

#43 brett

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 05:52 PM

I think july 1st makes or breaks holland. 2 top guys out there the wings need. will he come through?

#44 Johnz96

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Posted 02 June 2012 - 06:11 PM

I think july 1st makes or breaks holland. 2 top guys out there the wings need. will he come through?


More Cups than anybody else during his tenure, I think he has made it a long time ago

#45 Winterberg

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:28 AM

Why not Olli Jokinen


I have been wondering, what do people on here think of Ollie Jokinen? Not too much talk of him lately. I have not seen him play much, so perhaps he is not a good choice. He has respectable numbers and has a few good years left. Would he fit in the Wing's system? Capgeek has him as a center, is he able to play as a winger (for Datsyuk) at all? Would Parenteau fit either? He is much younger than Ollie.

Also, what if we signed Dennis Wideman and Matt Carle to help out our defense? I know they are nowhere near Suter, let alone Lidstrom status but if Suter cannot be had then we can sign these guys now and find a number one guy later (either in Smith or through free agency next year or so). Do you guys think this may work? Holland seemed to take this approach last year with signing White and saving our money until later.

A lot of questions I know, but I have been thinking of them lately.

#46 LeftWinger

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 09:23 AM

The world isn't over on July 1st if Holland doesn't get Parise or Suter (not until December 21st) there are plenty of Plan 1a options out there that will cost a ton less... These players have all been mentioned or listed by us, news media, etc... plenty of times so I won't get into the names. Do I want Suter and Parise? Sure! But if we don't get both or even one, Holland will have his tricks up his sleeve. The only thing I hope is that if they sign elsewhere, its because someone overpaid them, not because of personal feelings towards Detroit or that Holland only offered them $5M or something. The only way I am mad at Holland is if these guys wanted to come here, bu Holland didn't offer them enough. If they signed aomewhere else for $7.5M or less and expressed interest in coming to Detroit for the same salary, then I will be upset with Holland for not wanting to pay them...but like I said, I hope Holland tries to get both and offer's them a huge salary to come here, but if he tries (without lowballing them) and they don't sign here, that is fine too, just make this better and I will be happy!

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#47 e_prime

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 09:33 AM

Jokinen gets the same rap as Semin, Franzen, and the likes. Good scorer when motivated, but is often a floater. Decent sized. 33 years old.
In my estimation, probably down the list on options for a top-six scorer.

I'd prefer Semin just because he's naturally a winger, younger and the (perceived) chemistry with Datsyuk.

I do like Parenteau for a Hudler replacement, but he's eager to return to the Isle.

While Wideman and Carle are certainly options to help our defense, I think its Suter or bust. Then... the aforementioned.
QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.

#48 LeftWinger

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 10:32 AM

Why is it, when we talk about "floaters" in the NHL, it always seems to be European players? Do these Euro's just don't care when it comes down to it? Is the NHL not as important to them? Do they get their money and just mail it in for the rest of their careers? Are there any North American floaters? I am not singling out the Euro's, but it just always seems when the word "floater" is brought up, it seems it is always referring to a European player...More times than not...What about the term "locker room cancer" I hear this thrown around alot and that seems to have been said more so of Euro's too, but at least I have heard it about a few NA's...strange if you ask me...wonder what is behind this...coincidence?

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#49 Shaman

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 01:42 PM

The world isn't over on July 1st if Holland doesn't get Parise or Suter (not until December 21st) there are plenty of Plan 1a options out there that will cost a ton less... These players have all been mentioned or listed by us, news media, etc... plenty of times so I won't get into the names. Do I want Suter and Parise? Sure! But if we don't get both or even one, Holland will have his tricks up his sleeve. The only thing I hope is that if they sign elsewhere, its because someone overpaid them, not because of personal feelings towards Detroit or that Holland only offered them $5M or something. The only way I am mad at Holland is if these guys wanted to come here, bu Holland didn't offer them enough. If they signed aomewhere else for $7.5M or less and expressed interest in coming to Detroit for the same salary, then I will be upset with Holland for not wanting to pay them...but like I said, I hope Holland tries to get both and offer's them a huge salary to come here, but if he tries (without lowballing them) and they don't sign here, that is fine too, just make this better and I will be happy!

This is the doomsday scenario that Holland has seemed to never planned for. The writing has been on the wall for the last 4 seasons that Lidstrom would be gone, and it's become painfully obvious none of Kindl, Kronwall, or Ericsson were going to be the next top D-man they were thought to be. In the mean time Detroit has also been deficient in the natural goal scorer area. Holland took a chance on Franzen, but he seems to have chosen wrong and Franzen has been nowhere near what hes been before his contract. Now Detroit has been bounced early in the playoffs, the holes in the line up are mounting and players like Carle and Widemann/Semin and Doan will not fill the holes to make this team as competitive that a team needs to be to be real contenders.

The point of this is that Holland could have done a better job of transitioning the team so that they wouldn't be dependent on getting two top tier players thought FA in one offseason to stay where they have been the last 20 years.

Edited by Shaman464, 03 June 2012 - 01:51 PM.

Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#50 number9

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:03 PM

Why is it, when we talk about "floaters" in the NHL, it always seems to be European players? Do these Euro's just don't care when it comes down to it? Is the NHL not as important to them? Do they get their money and just mail it in for the rest of their careers? Are there any North American floaters? I am not singling out the Euro's, but it just always seems when the word "floater" is brought up, it seems it is always referring to a European player...More times than not...What about the term "locker room cancer" I hear this thrown around alot and that seems to have been said more so of Euro's too, but at least I have heard it about a few NA's...strange if you ask me...wonder what is behind this...coincidence?


Communism

This is the doomsday scenario that Holland has seemed to never planned for. The writing has been on the wall for the last 4 seasons that Lidstrom would be gone, and it's become painfully obvious none of Kindl, Kronwall, or Ericsson were going to be the next top D-man they were thought to be. In the mean time Detroit has also been deficient in the natural goal scorer area. Holland took a chance on Franzen, but he seems to have chosen wrong and Franzen has been nowhere near what hes been before his contract. Now Detroit has been bounced early in the playoffs, the holes in the line up are mounting and players like Carle and Widemann/Semin and Doan will not fill the holes to make this team as competitive that a team needs to be to be real contenders.

The point of this is that Holland could have done a better job of transitioning the team so that they wouldn't be dependent on getting two top tier players thought FA in one offseason to stay where they have been the last 20 years.


And then Y2K will happen and the Mayans will start the apocalypse

#51 Shaman

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:18 PM

Communism



And then Y2K will happen and the Mayans will start the apocalypse

Because the Red Wings can't suffer from the loss of a great defenseman and they will always be good no matter what Holland and Co do. And a team should never prepare for a future when their stars retire because that never happens ever. And when that never happens its okay because the Wings are incapable of not making the playoffs so they can just insert any player in to the #1 D position and they will magically become Lidstrom. And its not like their are 3 very good teams in the Central not to mention the good teams on the west coast, and the separation between playoff teams and non-playoff teams is over the last few season only 2-3 points. Nope it's nothing like this, its just like those internet myths, Y2k, Mayan Calender and the Detroit Red Wings missing the playoffs due to short sighted management and NHL parity.

And if it happens to be true that the NHL is much more competitive and that Detroit needs a top 6 goal scoring winger and a #1 D-man to be able to be a contender for the Stanley Cup, then its wrong to point out these facts because it may piss off a guy with 300 posts.

Edited by Shaman464, 03 June 2012 - 02:21 PM.

Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#52 number9

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:27 PM

Because the Red Wings can't suffer from the loss of a great defenseman and they will always be good no matter what Holland and Co do. And a team should never prepare for a future when their stars retire because that never happens ever. And when that never happens its okay because the Wings are incapable of not making the playoffs so they can just insert any player in to the #1 D position and they will magically become Lidstrom. And its not like their are 3 very good teams in the Central not to mention the good teams on the west coast, and the separation between playoff teams and non-playoff teams is over the last few season only 2-3 points. Nope it's nothing like this, its just like those internet myths, Y2k, Mayan Calender and the Detroit Red Wings missing the playoffs due to short sighted management and NHL parity.


Yeah the wings dont have a Lidstrom anymore....but no other team has a Lidstrom either lol

who said were not preparing for the future? who said stars never retire? who said were gonna put a random d-man in the #1 spot? who said the central division/western conference was bad?
you confuse me sir, and your doom/gloom disturbs me.

#53 Johnz96

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:34 PM

Because the Red Wings can't suffer from the loss of a great defenseman and they will always be good no matter what Holland and Co do. And a team should never prepare for a future when their stars retire because that never happens ever. And when that never happens its okay because the Wings are incapable of not making the playoffs so they can just insert any player in to the #1 D position and they will magically become Lidstrom. And its not like their are 3 very good teams in the Central not to mention the good teams on the west coast, and the separation between playoff teams and non-playoff teams is over the last few season only 2-3 points. Nope it's nothing like this, its just like those internet myths, Y2k, Mayan Calender and the Detroit Red Wings missing the playoffs due to short sighted management and NHL parity.

And if it happens to be true that the NHL is much more competitive and that Detroit needs a top 6 goal scoring winger and a #1 D-man to be able to be a contender for the Stanley Cup, then its wrong to point out these facts because it may piss off a guy with 300 posts.


Holy deja vu
Heard all kinds of crap just like this in 2006

#54 Johnz96

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:41 PM

Jokinen gets the same rap as Semin, Franzen, and the likes. Good scorer when motivated, but is often a floater. Decent sized. 33 years old.
In my estimation, probably down the list on options for a top-six scorer.

I'd prefer Semin just because he's naturally a winger, younger and the (perceived) chemistry with Datsyuk.

I do like Parenteau for a Hudler replacement, but he's eager to return to the Isle.

While Wideman and Carle are certainly options to help our defense, I think its Suter or bust. Then... the aforementioned.


I think if you give Abdelkader a lot more ice-time play him a lot on the PP and have him playing with Iginla all the time, his production would be similar to Jokinen's except he would be much more physical, better defensively, better on faceoffs, and most importantly play with a lot more heart

Edited by Johnz96, 03 June 2012 - 02:42 PM.


#55 Shaman

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 02:49 PM

Yeah the wings dont have a Lidstrom anymore....but no other team has a Lidstrom either lol

who said were not preparing for the future? who said stars never retire? who said were gonna put a random d-man in the #1 spot? who said the central division/western conference was bad?
you confuse me sir, and your doom/gloom disturbs me.

First preparing for the future usually implies that you don't have to throw big money at free agents to fill huge holes in the line up to stay competitive. Next you seemed to have implied that its myth or a conspiracy that the Wings may not be as good as we have come to expect of them next season. I sarcastically pointed out all the reasons why not filling the holes in the line up could come back and bite the Wings.

Well, I tend to follow the Red Wings prospects pretty closely. So here's a quick rundown:

Possible pure Goal scorers (high end projections of 30+ goals):
Teemu Pulkkinen
Tomas Jurco
Marek Tvrdon

Possible top D-men:
Brendan Smith

The rest of Detroit's prospect pool are full of boom or bust pass first forwards and borderline NHL energy guys, and second and third pairing D men. Of their last few first round selections only Smith is going to be a good NHL player, McCollum is trash, Riley Sheahan seems to have peaked as a borderline 3-4 liner.

Now lets be really really optimistic and say that players like Jurco, Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Sproul, and Marchenko all make it to the NHL. Know when this is likely to happen? More than likely 2015-2016. So between then and now there's not much in Grand Rapids besides players like Nyquist and Tatar and Smith to fill the holes the wings have. Now lets take a look at them: Neither Nyquist nor Tatar are goal scorers, they are puck movers, so they don't fill the needs of the top 6 for a legit goal scorer. Now Brendan Smith: hes a blue chip D prospect, but his biggest hole is he is young and he has the offense first attitude. He has the abilities to become a really good top pairing D-man but he needs time to learn the NHL game and mature abit. So does he fill Lidstroms shoes? or even give Detroit a top 20 D man? The answer is no. So now this leaves one option to fill the glaring holes in the line up: Go outside the organization.

There are two routes for this #1 Free agency, and their are 2 players on the market July first that fill the needs of the Wings' line up, Suter and Parise. If Detroit doesn't land these two players they can either pick up filler players like Semin and Wideman who both are not nearly as good as Suter and Parise or they can trade. The biggest problem with trading is other teams will want players back, the first players on the list will be Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Smith and Filppula, and on top of that they will probably also want some picks. This is bad for obvious reasons first Detroit's farm system is good but its not deep with blue chip talent, there is a lot of boom or bust guys, so trading the players who are most likely to make it in the NHL hurts the Wings in the future (short sighted).

I think if you give Abdelkader a lot more ice-time play him a lot on the PP and have him playing with Iginla all the time, his production would be similar to Jokinen's except he would be much more physical, better defensively, better on faceoffs, and most importantly play with a lot more heart


There is nothing in Abdelkader's past that points to him being 1/2 as good a goal scorer as Jokinen was. Remember kiddo that Jokinen has been close to 40 goals 3 different times with the Panthers.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#56 Johnz96

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:02 PM

First preparing for the future usually implies that you don't have to throw big money at free agents to fill huge holes in the line up to stay competitive. Next you seemed to have implied that its myth or a conspiracy that the Wings may not be as good as we have come to expect of them next season. I sarcastically pointed out all the reasons why not filling the holes in the line up could come back and bite the Wings.

Well, I tend to follow the Red Wings prospects pretty closely. So here's a quick rundown:

Possible pure Goal scorers (high end projections of 30+ goals):
Teemu Pulkkinen
Tomas Jurco
Marek Tvrdon

Possible top D-men:
Brendan Smith

The rest of Detroit's prospect pool are full of boom or bust pass first forwards and borderline NHL energy guys, and second and third pairing D men. Of their last few first round selections only Smith is going to be a good NHL player, McCollum is trash, Riley Sheahan seems to have peaked as a borderline 3-4 liner.

Now lets be really really optimistic and say that players like Jurco, Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Sproul, and Marchenko all make it to the NHL. Know when this is likely to happen? More than likely 2015-2016. So between then and now there's not much in Grand Rapids besides players like Nyquist and Tatar and Smith to fill the holes the wings have. Now lets take a look at them: Neither Nyquist nor Tatar are goal scorers, they are puck movers, so they don't fill the needs of the top 6 for a legit goal scorer. Now Brendan Smith: hes a blue chip D prospect, but his biggest hole is he is young and he has the offense first attitude. He has the abilities to become a really good top pairing D-man but he needs time to learn the NHL game and mature abit. So does he fill Lidstroms shoes? or even give Detroit a top 20 D man? The answer is no. So now this leaves one option to fill the glaring holes in the line up: Go outside the organization.

There are two routes for this #1 Free agency, and their are 2 players on the market July first that fill the needs of the Wings' line up, Suter and Parise. If Detroit doesn't land these two players they can either pick up filler players like Semin and Wideman who both are not nearly as good as Suter and Parise or they can trade. The biggest problem with trading is other teams will want players back, the first players on the list will be Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Smith and Filppula, and on top of that they will probably also want some picks. This is bad for obvious reasons first Detroit's farm system is good but its not deep with blue chip talent, there is a lot of boom or bust guys, so trading the players who are most likely to make it in the NHL hurts the Wings in the future (short sighted).



There is nothing in Abdelkader's past that points to him being 1/2 as good a goal scorer as Jokinen was. Remember kiddo that Jokinen has been close to 40 goals 3 different times with the Panthers.


I may have exaggerated a bit to make a point and I'm not advocating to do this but if you were to play Abby 19 mins a game on THE top line with 3 mins of PP time, he would probably score 20 goals certainly a lot more than he has in the past and he IS a lot more physical, better defensively and on faceoffs than Jokinen.
He scored so much because on the Panthers he played even more. How many playoff points has he scored?

Smith isn't ready but his teammates in Wisconsin who weren't as good as him are?
Or is it that they were given an opportunity that he wasn't?

Edited by Johnz96, 03 June 2012 - 03:07 PM.


#57 Shaman

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:05 PM

I may have exaggerated a bit to make a point but if you were to play Abby 19 mins a game on THE top line with 3 mins of PP time, he would probably score 20 goals certainly a lot more than he has in the past and he is a lot more physical, better defensively and on faceoffs.

Smith isn't ready but his teammates in Wisconsin who weren't as good as him are?
Or is it that they were given an opportunity that he wasn't?

I never said he wasn't ready, I said his game needs to mature for him to reach his peak potential. He is NHL ready, but hes not ready to be a top pairing D-man.

Why give Abby top 6 minutes and 3 minutes of power play time? There are 8 forwards on the team better than him offensively.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#58 Johnz96

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:26 PM

I never said he wasn't ready, I said his game needs to mature for him to reach his peak potential. He is NHL ready, but hes not ready to be a top pairing D-man.

Why give Abby top 6 minutes and 3 minutes of power play time? There are 8 forwards on the team better than him offensively.

His Wisconsin teammates McDonagh and Gardiner (Smith was better than both) were both ready to be ready to be top pairing D-men in the NHL. Affording him the opportunity would expediate (that is the correct word and spelling) the maturation process
As I said I said I am not advocating Abby get 19 mins a game(which is more than just top 6) but I would rather have him there than Jokinen

#59 Shaman

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:44 PM

His Wisconsin teammates McDonagh and Gardiner (Smith was better than both) were both ready to be ready to be top pairing D-men in the NHL. Affording him the opportunity would expediate (that is the correct word and spelling) the maturation process
As I said I said I am not advocating Abby get 19 mins a game(which is more than just top 6) but I would rather have him there than Jokinen

Komisarek, Phaneuf, Schenn and Liles>>>>>Gardiner. And McDonagh is part of a very young defense on the Rangers which is carried by King Henrik. So they are poor examples, and I know some Ranger fans who think McDonagh was rushed to the NHL.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#60 Johnz96

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Posted 03 June 2012 - 03:55 PM

Komisarek, Phaneuf, Schenn and Liles>>>>>Gardiner. And McDonagh is part of a very young defense on the Rangers which is carried by King Henrik. So they are poor examples, and I know some Ranger fans who think McDonagh was rushed to the NHL.


Gardiner got more ice time per game than all those guys except Phaneuf, he scored more points than all those guys other than Phaneuf and had a better +/- than all of them.
Our young d-men can be carried by 3 of the best defensive forwards in the league





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