82 replies to this topic

[Shaman464]

Gardiner got more ice time per game than all those guys except Phaneuf, he scored more points than all those guys other than Phaneuf and had a better +/- than all of them.
Our young d-men can be carried by 3 of the best defensive forwards in the league

+/- is meaningless, its not an individual stat its a team stat. Next, hes played more games than most of those listed, and only out scored Liles by 3 points over almost 20 games difference. Also the Wings problem isn't puck moving D-men, Kronwall, White, and Kindl are all good puck movers they need a defenseman that is a top shut down guy, and that's the issue, offense because its more natural comes earlier in a D-man's career, the ability to be a top shut down guy takes years of experience. Add to that Toronto was 2nd worst in GA and 3rd worst in GF/GA differential doesn't really help your case.

Edited by Shaman464, 03 June 2012 - 04:04 PM.

[Johnz96]

+/- is meaningless, its not an individual stat its a team stat. Next, hes played more games than most of those listed, and only out scored Liles by 3 points over almost 20 games difference. Also the Wings problem isn't puck moving D-men, Kronwall, White, and Kindl are all good puck movers they need a defenseman that is a top shut down guy, and that's the issue, offense because its more natural comes earlier in a D-man's career, the ability to be a top shut down guy takes years of experience. Add to that Toronto was 2nd worst in GA and 3rd worst in GF/GA differential doesn't really help your case.

In the Red Wings possession style game a puck moving defenseman is a shut down guy because if we have the puck they can't score.
Gardiner actually scored 3 points more than Liles playing ONLY 9 games more than him and getting a lot less PP time but GA and GF/GA wasn't as bad when he was on the ice as was evidence by his -2 (same as Lidstrom last year when he won the Norris)

Edited by Johnz96, 03 June 2012 - 04:11 PM.

[Shaman464]

In the Red Wings possession style game a puck moving defenseman is a shut down guy because if we have the puck they can't score.
Gardiner actually scored 3 points more than Liles playing only 9 games more than him and getting a lot less PP time

Are you high? Honestly, have you ever watched Lidstrom? Puck possession wasn't what made Lidstrom great, it was perfect positioning in the defensive zone. Lidstrom had great offensive sense but, it was far outclassed by his ability to read other players and cancel them out before they could get a quality chance on net.

As for Gardiner he had the 3rd most ice time and it wasn't by much that he wasn't second, and that still doesnt address the point that Toronto was TERRIBLE defensively. And by your logic Cody Franson 2011-2012>Lidstrom 2010-2011.

Edited by Shaman464, 03 June 2012 - 04:19 PM.

[Johnz96]

Are you high? Honestly, have you ever watched Lidstrom? Puck possession wasn't what made Lidstrom great, it was perfect positioning in the defensive zone. Lidstrom had great offensive sense but, it was far outclassed by his ability to read other players and cancel them out before they could get a quality chance on net.

As for Gardiner he had the 3rd most ice time and it wasn't by much that he wasn't second, and that still doesnt address the point that Toronto was TERRIBLE defensively. And by your logic Cody Franson 2011-2012>Lidstrom 2010-2011.

But they weren't terrible defensively WHEN Gardiner was on the ice and he is going to be much better next year because of the experience gained

[Shaman464]

But they weren't terrible defensively WHEN Gardiner was on the ice and he is going to be much better next year because of the experience gained

So by your logic again Cody Franson is a better defender than Gardiner. And again you never addressed the original point: Offense is a natural gift, defense needs to be learned, a first year defender that isn't name Doughty, Keith, Lidstrom, etc aren't going to be great defender right off the bat at the NHL level.

Edited by Shaman464, 03 June 2012 - 04:24 PM.

[Johnz96]

So by your logic again Cody Franson is a better defender than Gardiner. And again you never addressed the original point: Offense is a natural gift, defense needs to be learned, a first year defender that isn't name Doughty, Keith, Lidstrom, etc aren't going to be great defender right off the bat at the NHL level.

I never said that I was merely pointing out that rookie can get top 2 minutes and be effective, Gardiner got a lot more ice-time in the second half of the season than he did in the first.
By your logic unless they are related to Doughty, Keith or Lidstrom there will never be another great defender right off the bat.

[Shaman464]

I never said that I was merely pointing out that rookie can get top 2 minutes and be effective, Gardiner got a lot more ice-time in the second half of the season than he did in the first.
By your logic unless they are related to Doughty, Keith or Lidstrom there will never be another great defender right off the bat.

It's not impossible, but, it's extremely unlikely, defensive ability again is something learned.

[Buppy]

This is the doomsday scenario that Holland has seemed to never planned for. The writing has been on the wall for the last 4 seasons that Lidstrom would be gone, and it's become painfully obvious none of Kindl, Kronwall, or Ericsson were going to be the next top D-man they were thought to be. In the mean time Detroit has also been deficient in the natural goal scorer area. Holland took a chance on Franzen, but he seems to have chosen wrong and Franzen has been nowhere near what hes been before his contract. Now Detroit has been bounced early in the playoffs, the holes in the line up are mounting and players like Carle and Widemann/Semin and Doan will not fill the holes to make this team as competitive that a team needs to be to be real contenders.

The point of this is that Holland could have done a better job of transitioning the team so that they wouldn't be dependent on getting two top tier players thought FA in one offseason to stay where they have been the last 20 years.

What exactly could have been done better? We still have a good team, a ton of cap space, and a pretty good prospect pool. What realistic moves could we have made to put us in a better position?

Filling the void left by Nick was always going to be a huge problem. Nothing we could have done, except maybe tank a few seasons to stock up on lottery picks, would have changed that. It's not like there have been a bunch of future-HoF defensemen that we passed on as UFAs. At least now we have the cap space to offer Suter top dollar, with enough left over for other improvements.

We are not at all "dependent" on signing Parise. We may not have a top sniper, but we still have a top offense. Only 3 teams scored significantly more than the Wings this season. Even if we miss out on Parise and get someone like Jones instead, or even just re-sign Hudler and promote Nyquist, we should still be a very good offense. Figure out how to get the PP working again and "very good" becomes "elite".

The good news is we actually have the cap space to go aggressively after several of the best UFA options. And we do have a few tradeable assets if we miss out there. Realistically, for being as good as we have been for this long and still having any chance at all of still being an elite team next year speaks volumes about just how well Kenny has been preparing for this moment.

[number9]

First preparing for the future usually implies that you don't have to throw big money at free agents to fill huge holes in the line up to stay competitive. Next you seemed to have implied that its myth or a conspiracy that the Wings may not be as good as we have come to expect of them next season. I sarcastically pointed out all the reasons why not filling the holes in the line up could come back and bite the Wings.

Well, I tend to follow the Red Wings prospects pretty closely. So here's a quick rundown:

Possible pure Goal scorers (high end projections of 30+ goals):
Teemu Pulkkinen
Tomas Jurco
Marek Tvrdon

Possible top D-men:
Brendan Smith

The rest of Detroit's prospect pool are full of boom or bust pass first forwards and borderline NHL energy guys, and second and third pairing D men. Of their last few first round selections only Smith is going to be a good NHL player, McCollum is trash, Riley Sheahan seems to have peaked as a borderline 3-4 liner.

Now lets be really really optimistic and say that players like Jurco, Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Sproul, and Marchenko all make it to the NHL. Know when this is likely to happen? More than likely 2015-2016. So between then and now there's not much in Grand Rapids besides players like Nyquist and Tatar and Smith to fill the holes the wings have. Now lets take a look at them: Neither Nyquist nor Tatar are goal scorers, they are puck movers, so they don't fill the needs of the top 6 for a legit goal scorer. Now Brendan Smith: hes a blue chip D prospect, but his biggest hole is he is young and he has the offense first attitude. He has the abilities to become a really good top pairing D-man but he needs time to learn the NHL game and mature abit. So does he fill Lidstroms shoes? or even give Detroit a top 20 D man? The answer is no. So now this leaves one option to fill the glaring holes in the line up: Go outside the organization.

There are two routes for this #1 Free agency, and their are 2 players on the market July first that fill the needs of the Wings' line up, Suter and Parise. If Detroit doesn't land these two players they can either pick up filler players like Semin and Wideman who both are not nearly as good as Suter and Parise or they can trade. The biggest problem with trading is other teams will want players back, the first players on the list will be Pulkkinen, Jarnkrok, Smith and Filppula, and on top of that they will probably also want some picks. This is bad for obvious reasons first Detroit's farm system is good but its not deep with blue chip talent, there is a lot of boom or bust guys, so trading the players who are most likely to make it in the NHL hurts the Wings in the future (short sighted).



There is nothing in Abdelkader's past that points to him being 1/2 as good a goal scorer as Jokinen was. Remember kiddo that Jokinen has been close to 40 goals 3 different times with the Panthers.

Sorry but this is the same doom n gloom garbage people spewed when Yzerman retired. Holland and Co's track record shows that we will be just fine. We have one of the top prospect pools in the league and are still the top FA destination in the league. Many of our prospects are pass first players because that's the system we run, thus it's only natural we have as many as we do. And we don't need to fill Lidstrom's shoes, we need to fill a number 1 D spot, which most likely Kronwall will do unless Suter comes here. We will continue to have great players trickle through and we will sign the Rafalski's and Hossa's as needed.

Komisarek, Phaneuf, Schenn and Liles>>>>>Gardiner. And McDonagh is part of a very young defense on the Rangers which is carried by King Henrik. So they are poor examples, and I know some Ranger fans who think McDonagh was rushed to the NHL.

This is personal opinion, but to me McDonagh looks amazingggg for a young D man. So much skill, poise, and sense. I believe defense is learned as well, but damn he must be a fast learner or something. Definitely my favorite D man not on our team. Very jealous of the Rangers. If Smith is anywhere near his caliber i will be extremely happy.

[Shaman464]

Sorry but this is the same doom n gloom garbage people spewed when Yzerman retired. Holland and Co's track record shows that we will be just fine. We have one of the top prospect pools in the league and are still the top FA destination in the league. Many of our prospects are pass first players because that's the system we run, thus it's only natural we have as many as we do. And we don't need to fill Lidstrom's shoes, we need to fill a number 1 D spot, which most likely Kronwall will do unless Suter comes here. We will continue to have great players trickle through and we will sign the Rafalski's and Hossa's as needed.



This is personal opinion, but to me McDonagh looks amazingggg for a young D man. So much skill, poise, and sense. I believe defense is learned as well, but damn he must be a fast learner or something. Definitely my favorite D man not on our team. Very jealous of the Rangers. If Smith is anywhere near his caliber i will be extremely happy.

There is a few key differences between Yzerman and Lidstrom:

#1 Lidstrom was still a top D-man and would have been a top D-man next season had he come back. When Yzerman retired he was already showing signs of decline and was playing a reduced role on the team. His leadership was what was most missed.

#2 At the time Yzerman retired the team already had Datsyuk and Zetterberg were at the beginning of their primes, having scored 87 and 85 points in the 2005-2006 season respectively. This time the Red Wings do not have a #1 D-man outside of Lidstrom, not offensively and not defensively.

#3 Lidstrom is almost undeniably a more talented player than Yzerman, Yzerman is probably ~10th best forward ever to play, Lidstrom is arguably the second best D-man to ever play the game.

#4 2005-06 NHL had a lot less parity, at least according to all I have read and heard from people who are involved with the League, today there is a lot less room for error.

I want to end this with saying I am not saying that the Red Wings are screwed, because I know about as well as anyone on here what the prospect situation is, the Wings do have a great farm system, the only issues is that the best players are a couple years away from being NHL ready. It is my personal belief that replacing Lidstrom with Suter will make the transitional period the wings are in a lot smoother, and keep them as contenders.

[number9]

I want to end this with saying I am not saying that the Red Wings are screwed, because I know about as well as anyone on here what the prospect situation is, the Wings do have a great farm system, the only issues is that the best players are a couple years away from being NHL ready. It is my personal belief that replacing Lidstrom with Suter will make the transitional period the wings are in a lot smoother, and keep them as contenders.

Holland will do what needs to be done. His track record shows he's conservative, but he gets the job done. After all the great work he's done here it's alarming how little faith people have in him. He always has something up his sleeve.

IMO I think Kronwall can play the #1 spot...White can play #2, Quincey can play #3, Smith is likely capable of playing the #4 spot, Ericsson can play #5, and Kindl can play #6. Adding Suter to me is adding another #1 capable defender, and everyone would get pushed down a spot. Would we be OK without Suter? Yeah...but it'd just be "OK".....If we don't get Suter we will likely sign another #2 or #3 capable defender, which I think is fine as well, would just mean Kronners would be the undisputed #1 D-man

[centcougar07]

Sorry but this is the same doom n gloom garbage people spewed when Yzerman retired. Holland and Co's track record shows that we will be just fine. We have one of the top prospect pools in the league and are still the top FA destination in the league. Many of our prospects are pass first players because that's the system we run, thus it's only natural we have as many as we do. And we don't need to fill Lidstrom's shoes, we need to fill a number 1 D spot, which most likely Kronwall will do unless Suter comes here. We will continue to have great players trickle through and we will sign the Rafalski's and Hossa's as needed.



This is personal opinion, but to me McDonagh looks amazingggg for a young D man. So much skill, poise, and sense. I believe defense is learned as well, but damn he must be a fast learner or something. Definitely my favorite D man not on our team. Very jealous of the Rangers. If Smith is anywhere near his caliber i will be extremely happy.

Congratulations. You have been awarded "arrogant statement of the year". This one is even spewing with entitlement too! The verbal vomit you're spitting up isn't worth the Red Wings toilet paper you wipe your homer ass with. I've been around a lot of years and seen a lot of ignorant fans, but you sir take the cake. Let's review your statements.

1: Ken Holland is a hockey god and because of his "track record", we are going to be just fine and soon we'll be dominating the league once again because we are the Red Wings and we just will cuz I said so.

2: Our prospects are the best in the league and can do no wrong. It's only a matter of time before the next Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom arrive at training camp. We're totally set! It's actually a good thing we have no first round pick this year. Then we'd have way too many blue chip prospects!

3: Detroit is the only place FA's want to sign. Even though we have had 3 consecutive early exits in the playoffs thanks to an aging core of players who are slow and losing production, we're still the best! Ken Holland actually has to beat FA's away with a stick in July. He actually has to have 8 different cell phones ready on July 1 because every single FA is calling HIM just BEGGING to be signed by the Wings. Zach Parise and Ryan Suter are so desperate to sign here that they've actually agreed to play for free.

[LeftWinger]

1: Ken Holland is a hockey god and because of his "track record", we are going to be just fine and soon we'll be dominating the league once again because we are the Red Wings and we just will cuz I said so.

Actually, with Holland's track record, there is no reason not to believe everything will okay. Is he facing a huge adversity for the first time in his GM career? Sure, but this is what he gets paid to do and he has had great success before, so until is indeed fails (which he hasn't yet) like I said, there is no reason not to believe everything will be okay...

2: Our prospects are the best in the league and can do no wrong. It's only a matter of time before the next Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom arrive at training camp. We're totally set! It's actually a good thing we have no first round pick this year. Then we'd have way too many blue chip prospects!

We have no first round pick this year, BUT, if Holland allows Quincey to explore his options around the NHL and he signs somewhere else, Holland will have TWO 1st round and TWO 3rd round picks in 2013. One of those 1st rounders could very well be a top 10 if Quincey signs with a bottom dweller. Which may also be used in a trade scenario, Holland could get a nice player back for a top 10 1st round pick...I realize that this is all speculation and relies on Quincey signing an offer sheet somewhere else, but with the 4 or 5 prospects that are NHL caliber, even if this doesn't happen, I still think the Wings will remain competitive...

3: Detroit is the only place FA's want to sign. Even though we have had 3 consecutive early exits in the playoffs thanks to an aging core of players who are slow and losing production, we're still the best! Ken Holland actually has to beat FA's away with a stick in July. He actually has to have 8 different cell phones ready on July 1 because every single FA is calling HIM just BEGGING to be signed by the Wings. Zach Parise and Ryan Suter are so desperate to sign here that they've actually agreed to play for free.

Exactly how many early round exits did the Wings have between the 1998 and 2002 Cups? 99, 00, 01...two 2nd rounds and a 1st round exit...That didn't really deter a few UFA's from coming here then. Same with 2002 to 2008...we had a couple of first round exits then. I have said it before, Detroit may not get ALL the high end UFA's available but the ones they want, they usually get. Those UFA's may not get the highest salary, but when they do sign here, they usually finish their career's here...why is that I wonder?

[ltgator333]

Jokinen gets the same rap as Semin, Franzen, and the likes. Good scorer when motivated, but is often a floater. Decent sized. 33 years old.
In my estimation, probably down the list on options for a top-six scorer.

I'd prefer Semin just because he's naturally a winger, younger and the (perceived) chemistry with Datsyuk.

I do like Parenteau for a Hudler replacement, but he's eager to return to the Isle.

While Wideman and Carle are certainly options to help our defense, I think its Suter or bust. Then... the aforementioned.

My reason for liking Jokinen is he's bigger than Hudler.He's cheaper than Parise and Detroit don't need to get as involved ( # of years on the contract).Put him on the second line and let him do his stuff.He's also I believe cheaper than Semin, who will not take a pay cut.So you're looking 5.5 or 6 mil.I think you can get Jokinen for 4.5 for 3years.

[number9]

Congratulations. You have been awarded "arrogant statement of the year". This one is even spewing with entitlement too! The verbal vomit you're spitting up isn't worth the Red Wings toilet paper you wipe your homer ass with. I've been around a lot of years and seen a lot of ignorant fans, but you sir take the cake. Let's review your statements.

1: Ken Holland is a hockey god and because of his "track record", we are going to be just fine and soon we'll be dominating the league once again because we are the Red Wings and we just will cuz I said so.

2: Our prospects are the best in the league and can do no wrong. It's only a matter of time before the next Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Lidstrom arrive at training camp. We're totally set! It's actually a good thing we have no first round pick this year. Then we'd have way too many blue chip prospects!

3: Detroit is the only place FA's want to sign. Even though we have had 3 consecutive early exits in the playoffs thanks to an aging core of players who are slow and losing production, we're still the best! Ken Holland actually has to beat FA's away with a stick in July. He actually has to have 8 different cell phones ready on July 1 because every single FA is calling HIM just BEGGING to be signed by the Wings. Zach Parise and Ryan Suter are so desperate to sign here that they've actually agreed to play for free.

Wow....that, THAT (maybe u need to go read it again), is the most arrogant statement you ever seen? Apparently you havn't seen many ignorant fans as you so claim...I sir deserve no such prestigious awards I am but a loyal fan lol. But you may have claimed the overreaction of the year award haha.

1. Lol nobody said Holland was the god of hockey dude, exaggerate much? His track record has shown time and time again that we will be fine, he gets the job done. History and evidence points to this, and not the contrary. Saying Holland is going to have an epic fail and screw the team up this year is like saying Lidstrom is going to come out and play terrible defense all season. If there is one thing we can say for certain about Holland it's that he thinks 10 steps ahead into the future....he's no Holmgren....you really think he didn't anticipate and plan for the loss of Lidstrom? Guy's going to have multiple plans and tricks up his sleeve....which one he uses we have yet to see.

2. More exaggeration eh? I said we have one of the best prospect pools, not THE best. Shaman knows this and made fair evaluation of them. I also didn't say any of them will be a D, Z, or L.....And you don't need 3 of the best players in the league to win cups anyway. 1st round picks really don't matter, many 1st round picks and even top 10s never pan out.....plus the Wings are notorious for taking 1st round caliber players in the 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th. Half the players on our team right now would have gone in the top 20 of their draft classes if their was a redraft of their years.

3. Your hyperbole is amazing....of course Detroit is not the ONLY place FA's want to sign, don't be silly. However, we were voted by the players themselves as the team most desirable to play for. We are on the tops of lists for many FA's.

Edited by number9, 04 June 2012 - 01:03 PM.

[Richdg]

Wow....that, THAT (maybe u need to go read it again), is the most arrogant statement you ever seen? Apparently you havn't seen many ignorant fans as you so claim...I sir deserve no such prestigious awards I am but a loyal fan lol. But you may have claimed the overreaction of the year award haha.

1. Lol nobody said Holland was the god of hockey dude, exaggerate much? His track record has shown time and time again that we will be fine, he gets the job done. History and evidence points to this, and not the contrary. Saying Holland is going to have an epic fail and screw the team up this year is like saying Lidstrom is going to come out and play terrible defense all season. If there is one thing we can say for certain about Holland it's that he thinks 10 steps ahead into the future....he's no Holmgren....you really think he didn't anticipate and plan for the loss of Lidstrom? Guy's going to have multiple plans and tricks up his sleeve....which one he uses we have yet to see.

2. More exaggeration eh? I said we have one of the best prospect pools, not THE best. Shaman knows this and made fair evaluation of them. I also didn't say any of them will be a D, Z, or L.....And you don't need 3 of the best players in the league to win cups anyway. 1st round picks really don't matter, many 1st round picks and even top 10s never pan out.....plus the Wings are notorious for taking 1st round caliber players in the 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th. Half the players on our team right now would have gone in the top 20 of their draft classes if their was a redraft of their years.

3. Your hyperbole is amazing....of course Detroit is not the ONLY place FA's want to sign, don't be silly. However, we were voted by the players themselves as the team most desirable to play for. We are on the tops of lists for many FA's.

IIRC hpckeysfuture has us at 15th. Middle of the road. Most of which have yet to play a single professional game. This is not a deep talented pool.It is a bunch of names that we hope become prospects.

[Shaman464]

IIRC hpckeysfuture has us at 15th. Middle of the road. Most of which have yet to play a single professional game. This is not a deep talented pool.It is a bunch of names that we hope become prospects.

Not really... at forward the Wings are really deep. They are pretty deep at D and not deep at goalie.

[Hatethedrake!]

One thing Kenny has to keep an eye on is next summer. Lets say he is able to sign both Parise and Suter on July 1st. He needs to re-sign Helm, Abdelkader and Quincey as well. Plus he wants to add a big physical guy to the 4th line (Moen or Prust for example). He also wants a back-up goalie upgrade (Harding?). However looking ahead, Shea Weber is a UFA next summer assuming he does not sign a new deal with Nashville over the next year. Suter didn't and I don't expect Weber will either. Plus Kenny has to re-sign Filppula to a new deal. So does Kenny spend say 64 mil for this season and leave some room for Weber and Filppula next summer? I think Kenny will likely give Flip his extension during the season and he will need the tagging space on the Cap. He could sign Quncey to a 1 year deal for this season, then let him walk and sign Weber and have enough Cap space to do it.

[xtrememachine1]

Congratulations. You have been awarded "arrogant statement of the year". This one is even spewing with entitlement too! The verbal vomit you're spitting up isn't worth the Red Wings toilet paper you wipe your homer ass with. I've been around a lot of years and seen a lot of ignorant fans, but you sir take the cake. Let's review your statements.

In case you were wondering, its comments like these that keep getting you negged.

[Heaten]

Just think how much better this team would look if Jiri Fischer didn't have that heart condition. Fischer would have been our #1 and a fan favorite. Damn I miss him!