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#21 number9

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 02:58 PM

Wrong - I cannot remember one trade that involved a players rights prior to free agency that was contingent on signing.

There have been some where the compensation would change if the player did or did not sign but the eve nif the player did not sign with the team there was some compensation going to the player's original team. That is why we saw Dan Hamhuis' rights get traded twice in one off season a couple summers ago.


yeah and last season didn't Ehrhoff's rights get traded to NYI and then again to Buffalo days later....not sure it's possible it can be contingent

#22 Richdg

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 03:17 PM

I can honestly see the Wings standing pat with 2 defensemen and a top six forward, and addressing any additional issues at the trade deadline. There's no real reason to run out and spend money on a backup goalie or bottom six forward when either of those things could be had with very little effort later on. Then again, I could be totally wrong, but I certainly won't be surprised if Holland only makes a couple of moves. Especially if any of those moves involves picking up high end talent.



The backup goalie is entirely health related. Goalies with back issues are very worrying. TBH I expect this to be address real fast come July 1.

Wrong - I cannot remember one trade that involved a players rights prior to free agency that was contingent on signing.

There have been some where the compensation would change if the player did or did not sign but the eve nif the player did not sign with the team there was some compensation going to the player's original team. That is why we saw Dan Hamhuis' rights get traded twice in one off season a couple summers ago.



Wrong? how? Do you work in the NHL's office? just becasue you can't remember doesn't mean it does or does not happen. I don't know all of the by laws of the NHL. Just speaking for myself, i would not trade 1st round picks on a huge risk like not being able to sign a guy. maybe 3rd for the rights, and add an additional 1st if he signs. Just as an example.

#23 number9

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 05:44 PM

Wrong? how? Do you work in the NHL's office? just becasue you can't remember doesn't mean it does or does not happen. I don't know all of the by laws of the NHL. Just speaking for myself, i would not trade 1st round picks on a huge risk like not being able to sign a guy. maybe 3rd for the rights, and add an additional 1st if he signs. Just as an example.


Trading rights is trading negotiating rights. All you get is the right to make a deal with a player exclusively, before any other team can. Your not guaranteed to sign the player, hence why high draft picks are usually never involved in these types of deals. If you could somehow guarantee that player X would sign with the team his rights are traded to... it wouldn't be trading rights at all, it would be trading that player. Even with weird by-laws that just doesn't make sense. You could trade conditional picks as you suggested with the additional first, but nothing contingent on a player signing.

Example: Wisniewski's rights were traded to Columbus for a 7th round pick, however if they succeeded in signing him (which they did) that pick would instead become a 5th rounder. I can see something like that going down with the Wings/another team with Suter and Parise....My guess is it probably will not involve first or second round picks at all though since rights are just rights and have no guarantees




#24 Richdg

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 08:55 PM

Trading rights is trading negotiating rights. All you get is the right to make a deal with a player exclusively, before any other team can. Your not guaranteed to sign the player, hence why high draft picks are usually never involved in these types of deals. If you could somehow guarantee that player X would sign with the team his rights are traded to... it wouldn't be trading rights at all, it would be trading that player. Even with weird by-laws that just doesn't make sense. You could trade conditional picks as you suggested with the additional first, but nothing contingent on a player signing.

Example: Wisniewski's rights were traded to Columbus for a 7th round pick, however if they succeeded in signing him (which they did) that pick would instead become a 5th rounder. I can see something like that going down with the Wings/another team with Suter and Parise....My guess is it probably will not involve first or second round picks at all though since rights are just rights and have no guarantees





That is what I was saying. maybe in a more round about way, but yes.

#25 ogreslayer

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Posted 06 June 2012 - 11:39 PM

Wrong - I cannot remember one trade that involved a players rights prior to free agency that was contingent on signing.

Actually it was reported that Tomas Vokoun's agent was given approval from the Caps to talk to the Pens about a contract prior to the official trade for his rights. That's why the $2m/2yr contract was announced at the same time of the trade. Doubt very much it would have happened if the Pens didn't already have the contract locked down.

#26 LeftWinger

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:03 PM

What is your guys opinion of Ryan Carter? He is currently having a pretty good playoff with the Devils. I was at work today and caught an episode of "Sweat Equity" and he and his wife were on there landscaping their backyard and Amy Matthews kept saying they only have a week left before he reports to Carolina to play. That was a few years ago and he is currently a Devil. He will be a UFA July 1st and only made $750,000 last season. He has played in 21 playoff games and has 5 goals (two GWG's.) He is a 6'2" 200lb. forward...don't know too much about him, I can't say I have ever noticed him anytime before, he just peaked my interest because of the DIY show today...

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#27 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 08:31 PM

What is your guys opinion of Ryan Carter? He is currently having a pretty good playoff with the Devils. I was at work today and caught an episode of "Sweat Equity" and he and his wife were on there landscaping their backyard and Amy Matthews kept saying they only have a week left before he reports to Carolina to play. That was a few years ago and he is currently a Devil. He will be a UFA July 1st and only made $750,000 last season. He has played in 21 playoff games and has 5 goals (two GWG's.) He is a 6'2" 200lb. forward...don't know too much about him, I can't say I have ever noticed him anytime before, he just peaked my interest because of the DIY show today...

4th line grinder with some offensive touch. Not afraid to drop the gloves. Pisses me off with some of the antics (diving) though. He's had a great year with the Devils. I expect New Jersey to bring him back. If they don't, I'd be happy to have him in Detroit.
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#28 number9

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Posted 07 June 2012 - 09:17 PM

What is your guys opinion of Ryan Carter? He is currently having a pretty good playoff with the Devils. I was at work today and caught an episode of "Sweat Equity" and he and his wife were on there landscaping their backyard and Amy Matthews kept saying they only have a week left before he reports to Carolina to play. That was a few years ago and he is currently a Devil. He will be a UFA July 1st and only made $750,000 last season. He has played in 21 playoff games and has 5 goals (two GWG's.) He is a 6'2" 200lb. forward...don't know too much about him, I can't say I have ever noticed him anytime before, he just peaked my interest because of the DIY show today...


think he won the cup with the ducks too

#29 Echolalia

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 09:24 AM

For the record on figuring out who said what and which guys says we need this player etc:

Folks from the Wings' organization are legally not allowed to mention specific names when the player in question is under contract with another team. When free agency hits, then the names can fly, but until then, Holland and Babs and all the others have to be general and cryptic so not to get in trouble with the league.
Consequently all the quotes with specific names in them are likely coming from opinion columnists, bloggers, other people who are not affiliated with the Red Wings, or the NHL.

#30 Richdg

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 02:16 PM

For the record on figuring out who said what and which guys says we need this player etc:

Folks from the Wings' organization are legally not allowed to mention specific names when the player in question is under contract with another team. When free agency hits, then the names can fly, but until then, Holland and Babs and all the others have to be general and cryptic so not to get in trouble with the league.
Consequently all the quotes with specific names in them are likely coming from opinion columnists, bloggers, other people who are not affiliated with the Red Wings, or the NHL.


Names yes, positions no. They can and do talk about what positions or types of players theya re looking for all the time.

#31 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:24 PM

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($8.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Darren Helm ($2.000m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Travis Moen ($2.000m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.500m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Jan Mursak ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($8.000m)
Ian White ($2.875m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.250m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Josh Harding ($1.500m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,208,712; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,091,288


Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#32 LeftWinger

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 07:42 PM

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($8.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Darren Helm ($2.000m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Travis Moen ($2.000m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.500m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Jan Mursak ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($8.000m)
Ian White ($2.875m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.250m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Josh Harding ($1.500m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,208,712; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,091,288

+1 for all the changes, I do like them!

BUT...

Whew! Helm at $2M? Abby at $1.5M? I am guessing that you are setting them high so that when they do re-sign for less it will be like a bonus?

Abby made less than $800,000 last season do you really think he has earned almost DOUBLE his money? And Helm? He made less than $915,000 has he really earned MORE THAN double his money? It took Holmstrom almost 10 years to top $2M in salary, neither or these guys have brought what Holmstrom has brought to this team. I am not knocking them, and yes Helm is very valuable to this team, but I am not seeing over 2x his salary...

More like: Helm $1.5M Abby $1.1M


Quincey at anything over $3M is too expensive for the Wings. We already have a #5/#6 making over $3M, we do not need another. Holland needs to qualify him at $3.125M and then allow him to seek a raise elsewhere and collect the picks for him. The 1st and 3rd round picks are more valuable to Holland than Quincey is... Let Quincey go, maybe he signs on with a bottom 3rd team and then Holland can trade away our own 1st and 3rd next year for something that is going to push this team back over the top and then have a very high 1st and 3rd to replace the ones he traded...business is business and this makes the most sense, especially when he overpaid a 1st round pick for him to begin with, he not only gets another 1st back next year, but another 3rd to boot! Quincey for picks all day...


edit:

Even going with your $8M for Parise and Suter, I think it will look more like this. Plus this roster also works if the Cap doesn't quite stay at $70.3M...


FORWARDS

Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Zach Parise ($8.000m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Darren Helm ($1.500m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Travis Moen ($1.900m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.100m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Cory Emmerton ($0.533m)

DEFENSEMEN

Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($8.000m)
Ian White ($2.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Justin Schultz ($1.000m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

GOALTENDERS

Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Josh Harding ($1.000m)

SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,442,045; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $4,857,955*


*enough for a nice deadline acquisition as well...(if the cap stays at $70.3M)

also, I'd personally like to add Shane Doan, but with the $8M each for the Big Two, it would be kind of pushing the Cap with Doan considering he may cost $5M...

Edited by LeftWinger, 08 June 2012 - 08:02 PM.

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#33 Wingydingy19

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 08:00 PM

Yes it took over 10 years for homer to top 2m but times are different now and the cost of players have risen. If helm signs anything longer than a 2 year deal his annual salary will be just north of 2 mill. Think about it, if he stays healthy which he should he'll produce close to 30 pts and be the wings best forechecker and penalty killer. You have to assume the wings want to keep helm long term so a 5 year deal for 11 mill is not that hard to see. I do agree that Abby shouldn't get much more than 1.1-1.3.

#34 LeftWinger

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 08:06 PM

Yes it took over 10 years for homer to top 2m but times are different now and the cost of players have risen. If helm signs anything longer than a 2 year deal his annual salary will be just north of 2 mill. Think about it, if he stays healthy which he should he'll produce close to 30 pts and be the wings best forechecker and penalty killer. You have to assume the wings want to keep helm long term so a 5 year deal for 11 mill is not that hard to see. I do agree that Abby shouldn't get much more than 1.1-1.3.

While I do agree, I am also just looking at "Cap Hit." He could (before the CBA changes the rules) sign a 10 year front loaded contract and be bringing in Salary-wise close to $3M for a few years, but I really see his cap hit remaining closer to $1.5M for the length of it...But it is all just speculation, Holland did give Ericsson "too much" hoping that he plays up to the worth, he could do the same for Helm...we will see! SOON! July 1st! :w00t2:

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