Guest Johnz96 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 UH OH somebody never watched miracle lol players don't win cups dude, teams do.....dime a dozen eh? Helms? Kronwalls? Holmstroms? Filppulas? Fischers? Drapers? Howards? Franzens? (the list goes on and on and on) Why didn't you tell anyone we can just get one of those guys anywhere??? Somebody go tell Holland we've been doing it wrong the whole time lol. I don't think you understood my point about business assets though.....I really don't wanna explain the fundamentals of business, so long story short: you don't pay a lot for a little. If you were a GM and you were to sign Weber for 8.5 million AND give up 3 first round picks, you would probably be fired on the spot....and your talking about four picks sir! Four! http://capgeek.com/ufa_finder.php As long as you got Datsyuk, Z, Fil, Iginla, Weber, Kronwall, Smith and Howard, you can fill out the rest of the team with guys on this list and still ice a great team and only one of the guys you mentioned was actually a first. In fact Red Wings accumulated all their homegrown talent with 6 first rounders in the last 16 years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 http://capgeek.com/ufa_finder.php As long as you got Datsyuk, Z, Fil, Iginla, Weber, Kronwall, Smith and Howard, you can fill out the rest of the team with guys on this list and still ice a great team and only one of the guys you mentioned was actually a first. In fact Red Wings accumulated all their homegrown talent with 6 first rounders in the last 16 years. Good god that wasn't the point at all. I dont care what round any of those players were taken in, the point is they are not dime a dozen players. Sir you are operating in hockey fantasy land. I'm sorry but this is going nowhere fast with you. Good luck to you on this forum...your gonna need it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Johnz96 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Good god that wasn't the point at all. I dont care what round any of those players were taken in, the point is they are not dime a dozen players. Sir you are operating in hockey fantasy land. I'm sorry but this is going nowhere fast with you. Good luck to you on this forum...your gonna need it. Thanks. Hope they don't eat me alive Most of them have a grass is greener on the other side and the glass is empty outlook on things and think we should get rid of our top 2 goal scorers and in fact hate them, I am here to hopefully edify a few of them. Edited June 11, 2012 by Johnz96 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 Thanks. Hope they don't eat me alive Most of them have a grass is greener on the other side and the glass is empty outlook on things and think we should get rid of our top 2 goal scorers and in fact hate them, I am here to hopefully edify a few of them. No most of the people here are incredibly knowledgeable.....they just end up spending all their time replying to the few crazies who wanna blow the team up and submit an overpriced offer sheet to an overpriced defenseman Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Johnz96 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) No most of the people here are incredibly knowledgeable.....they just end up spending all their time replying to the few crazies who wanna blow the team up and submit an overpriced offer sheet to an overpriced defenseman Knowledgeable?. Most of them want to get rid of our 2 top goal scorers, there was debate here as to if the OHL is better than the NCAA. Some people saying that we don't draft well and don't have good prospects I don't want to blow this team up, I like em all, even our top 2 goal scorers You know except for Hudler and Weber I generally agree about most things with you. Why cna';t you just agree to disagree about these 2 things? Edited June 11, 2012 by Johnz96 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 [Dan Girardi] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,953 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 He didn't say the best of Lidstrom, Stevens and Grimson. I think it's a fair analogy if you mix those 3 players DNA you would get someone like Weber. Grimson had pugilistic abilities and a hard shot but not much skill or hockey sense detracting from the skill and hockey sense Lidstrom's and Stevens' DNA brings to the mix. Doughty unfortunately is signed till 2019 and I would also much rather have him than Suter as he is more physical and shoots right but Weber would be ideal for the Wings because he can also protect our stars and our crease I would say that Weber is a fair comparison to Scott Stevens. Period. First of all, he is nowhere near Lidstrom offensively on consistent basis and he is nowhere near as tough as Grimson. But ya, I would say Scott Stevens is a great compare. If he only signs another one year deal, and the Wings fail to get Suter, Weber will be Detroit's prime target as a UFA next year...No way is he worth 4 1st round picks (or is anyone for that matter,) so he is not worth throwing an offer at this year... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Johnz96 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I would say that Weber is a fair comparison to Scott Stevens. Period. First of all, he is nowhere near Lidstrom offensively on consistent basis and he is nowhere near as tough as Grimson. But ya, I would say Scott Stevens is a great compare. If he only signs another one year deal, and the Wings fail to get Suter, Weber will be Detroit's prime target as a UFA next year...No way is he worth 4 1st round picks (or is anyone for that matter,) so he is not worth throwing an offer at this year... He has a better shot than Stevens did Edited June 11, 2012 by Johnz96 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBest7 7 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 Alright, I am going to give you two responses here... One really short summed up response, and another with more text. Response One: You are off your rocker! Response Two: There is no way in hell that Holland is going to throw an offer sheet at Weber for 8.5million and give up three first round picks. That is crazy, and absolutely stupid. Yes Weber is good but to make a move like that is beyond awful. Why do you think it has ever been done before? Also, do you have a crystal ball? Thinking that 6 million for Suter and then Parise on long term contracts just guarantee the wings got both of them guys in the bag? I think you need to hop of that cloud you are on and come back down to Earth. Last but not least what is up with that laundry list you made? If those are justifications on why were getting Weber, Suter, and Parise then its like comparing apples to oranges. Those facts have nothing to do what so ever with acquiring those players. Weber will not be a wing this season, Holland will no way throw an offer sheet at him. I say we have a 50-60% chance to sign Suter and Parise but your assumption they we got them is just asinine. Oh yeah, and one more thing, Suter and Parise are NOT best friends. They might be labeled as "friends" but to say they are best friends and are going to sign together is a little far fetched. No guarantees of that either. I wouldn't bank to much on if you sign one you got the other. Okay... I can't believe all the bad assumptions and mis-information this post had... First, Suter and Parise ARE best friends. Second, the likelihood of the Wings signing Suter is 90 percent. Signing both Suter and Parise is about 80 percent. Read these articles...http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120524/SPORTS0103/205240354/1128/Wings-perfect-fit-Ryan-Suter-Zach-Parise http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/25/do-suter-and-parise-want-to-play-for-the-same-team/ Third, my point for the list was to show the Red Wings were never built around 1st round draft picks. In fact, we have had better luck in the 3rd round than the first! Fourth, offering $8.5 to Weber forces a small market like Nashville to over extend itself. This is why we need to first sign Suter...then offer Weber. Keep in mind...both Suter and Weber each play on the ice for HALF THE GAME! (30 minutes...keeping the other defenseman fresh) Our divisional rivals would be set back for the next 5 years! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Johnz96 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 Okay... I can't believe all the bad assumptions and mis-information this post had... First, Suter and Parise ARE best friends. Second, the likelihood of the Wings signing Suter is 90 percent. Signing both Suter and Parise is about 80 percent. Read these articles...http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120524/SPORTS0103/205240354/1128/Wings-perfect-fit-Ryan-Suter-Zach-Parise http://prohockeytalk...-the-same-team/ Third, my point for the list was to show the Red Wings were never built around 1st round draft picks. In fact, we have had better luck in the 3rd round than the first! Fourth, offering $8.5 to Weber forces a small market like Nashville to over extend itself. This is why we need to first sign Suter...then offer Weber. Keep in mind...both Suter and Weber each play on the ice for HALF THE GAME! (30 minutes...keeping the other defenseman fresh) Our divisional rivals would be set back for the next 5 years! If you sign Suter the preds are sure to match Weber? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Hatethedrake! Report post Posted June 11, 2012 If you sign Suter the preds are sure to match Weber? Holland would be stupid to sign Weber to an offer sheet this summer. Poile would just match it. NEXT summer is when Kenny will go after Weber. Kenny's 3 steps to getting the Wings back to the Cup are...Parise. Suter. Weber. 2 of the 3 happen this summer and the last one happens next summer. Think of the A TEAM. I love it when a plan comes together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,953 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 Holland would be stupid to sign Weber to an offer sheet this summer. Poile would just match it. NEXT summer is when Kenny will go after Weber. Kenny's 3 steps to getting the Wings back to the Cup are...Parise. Suter. Weber. 2 of the 3 happen this summer and the last one happens next summer. Think of the A TEAM. I love it when a plan comes together. That all depends on whether or not Weber re-signs long term or just a one year...then again, and hold on to your mouse, ANOTHER team could tender an offer to Weber as RFA and Nashville could match or let him go for 4 fist rounders, I think they match no matter what especially if they lose Suter! If Weber only signs a 1 year deal, I think that it shows how much players want to NOT play in Nashville...remember, just last July Nashville offered their #1 defenseman $4.5M a year before an arbitrator awarded him $7.5M...he already knows how Poile works, he may just sign a one year (or go to arbitration again) and bid adieu next summer... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Hatethedrake! Report post Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) That all depends on whether or not Weber re-signs long term or just a one year...then again, and hold on to your mouse, ANOTHER team could tender an offer to Weber as RFA and Nashville could match or let him go for 4 fist rounders, I think they match no matter what especially if they lose Suter! If Weber only signs a 1 year deal, I think that it shows how much players want to NOT play in Nashville...remember, just last July Nashville offered their #1 defenseman $4.5M a year before an arbitrator awarded him $7.5M...he already knows how Poile works, he may just sign a one year (or go to arbitration again) and bid adieu next summer... I compare Weber to Suter and Parise. If all 3 of these players wanted to stay with their current teams, then they would have signed long term contract extensions a long time ago. The fact that none of them have done that speaks volumes. Actions speak louder than words. Weber's actions are that he wants no part of staying long term with Nashville. Of course his agent is likely telling him not to say this. He has to pretend that he is interested in staying and that it is a possibility. He can't come out and say I WANT OUT OF HERE NOW! When he still has another season to play in Nashville. Even if a team offered Weber an offer sheet, I can't see him signing it. Because he knows that Poile would match it. There is no way Poile will take 4 1st round picks back for Weber. That is nowhere near his value. Poile could trade Weber this summer or during the season however this does not mean Weber will be staying there long term. As of right now, he is set to become a UFA on July 1st, 2013. That is the only date I am looking at with regard to the Wings possibly having a crack at acquiring Weber. All this offer sheet stuff is a waste of time. It will not happen. Edited June 11, 2012 by Hatethedrake! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBest7 7 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 ....Come on guy, do I really need to tell you to go back and read the comment again?We all know what he was saying.... A fair analogy would have been Souray/Stuart/Boyle/Carkner. By your logic we should be calling Smith a Konstantinov/Lidstrom/Chelios combo cause he can hit, has offensive sense, and a little mean streak....Even though we all know Smith is not comparable to either of those 3 players or the skills they possessed. My point was... Lidstrom can't fight and blow people off their skates. Fifteen years from now, Lidstrom and Weber will be labeled as two of the best defensemen ever to play the game. I doubt our 3 future first round picks will ever be that good. Weber is a proven commodity...the future 3 first rounders are not... In the first 6 years Lidstrom had 60 goals, Weber had 97 goals on an average Nashville team. Both are great and accomplish their business in different ways. Lidstrom would prefer to poke-check, Weber prefers to check. My point is... Anyone close to the ability of Lidstrom is worth 3 first rounders!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Hatethedrake! Report post Posted June 11, 2012 My point was... Lidstrom can't fight and blow people off their skates. Fifteen years from now, Lidstrom and Weber will be labeled as two of the best defensemen ever to play the game. I doubt our 3 future first round picks will ever be that good. Weber is a proven commodity...the future 3 first rounders are not... In the first 6 years Lidstrom had 60 goals, Weber had 97 goals on an average Nashville team. Both are great and accomplish their business in different ways. Lidstrom would prefer to poke-check, Weber prefers to check. My point is... Anyone close to the ability of Lidstrom is worth 3 first rounders!!!!! Hey I am a Canadian and I love Weber as a Canadian born dman who will be representing Team Canada for the next decade. But until he wins 4 Stanley Cups, a Conn Smythe trophy and 7 Norris Trophies, he cannot compare to Lidstrom. Weber may indeed may end up accomplishing alot in his career but then again he may not. We don't know that yet. I agree that Weber is worth giving up 3 1st round picks. He IS that good. But IMO he will never be in Lidstrom's league as one of the best dman to ever play the game. I mean we are talking about which dmen are the best of ALL TIME not which dmen are the best currently. Weber has a LONG way to go to even apprpach Lidstrom's awesome legacy of greatness. Will Weber play 20 seasons in the NHL as a top pairing dman? Maybe. Maybe not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
number9 3,297 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 Knowledgeable?. Most of them want to get rid of our 2 top goal scorers, there was debate here as to if the OHL is better than the NCAA. Some people saying that we don't draft well and don't have good prospects I don't want to blow this team up, I like em all, even our top 2 goal scorers You know except for Hudler and Weber I generally agree about most things with you. Why cna';t you just agree to disagree about these 2 things? I promise you that it's not most people lol once you spend some time here you'll see that the crazies come and go and that most people on this forum who stick around have a lot of hockey sense. Problem with Hudler is he going to be overpaid this year and we can't have overpaid players on this team. Would love to have him stay, but we all know money is on his agenda. And it's just dumb pursuing Weber this year giving up 4 first rounders, when he will be UFA next year and we won't have t give up any. My point was... Lidstrom can't fight and blow people off their skates. Fifteen years from now, Lidstrom and Weber will be labeled as two of the best defensemen ever to play the game. I doubt our 3 future first round picks will ever be that good. Weber is a proven commodity...the future 3 first rounders are not... In the first 6 years Lidstrom had 60 goals, Weber had 97 goals on an average Nashville team. Both are great and accomplish their business in different ways. Lidstrom would prefer to poke-check, Weber prefers to check. My point is... Anyone close to the ability of Lidstrom is worth 3 first rounders!!!!! Forgot you know how things will pan out 15 years down the road. I would give up 3 first rounders for another Lidstrom...but one doesn't exist...We've seen about 3 Lidstrom caliber players over about the last 100 years....Weber would take 4 first rounders and is currently one of the best defenseman, but a legendary D-man? NO Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 Message to MrBest7........... Dear MrBest7, Thank you so much for your incredibly thoughtful and insightful message. In all my years of being the Wings' GM I've never once not made the focal point of my team its defense. I've always over-invested in goaltending and offense first, because so many other teams have won the amount of Cups the Wings have solely based on that recipe. Now this off-season one of the greatest defenseman of all time has retired and we inevitably lost another of our top 4. On top of that, I've got $20+ million to spend, and you figured this was the moment in time I would pick to stop putting every single effort into our defense first??? Due to your message, I'm now awake. I won't try to sign every single offensive UFA first. Thank you for stopping me from making the biggest mistake of my career. I couldn't have done it without you. Yours Truly, Ken Holland 6 number9, hillbillywingsfan, Hockey13Playa and 3 others reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBest7 7 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 If you sign Suter the preds are sure to match Weber? I understand that... but the Preds will have to pay Weber $8.5m instead of $7.5m. This will put Nashville in a bad place, because if they don't match it....Weber is a Wing. If they do match, then they have $1m less to work with in a small market. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HelmFan 84 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) 1339446264[/url]' post='2306655']Message to MrBest7........... Dear MrBest7, Thank you so much for your incredibly thoughtful and insightful message. In all my years of being the Wings' GM I've never once not made the focal point of my team its defense. I've always over-invested in goaltending and offense first, because so many other teams have won the amount of Cups the Wings have solely based on that recipe. Now this off-season one of the greatest defenseman of all time has retired and we inevitably lost another of our top 4. On top of that, I've got $20+ million to spend, and you figured this was the moment in time I would pick to stop putting every single effort into our defense first??? Due to your message, I'm now awake. I won't try to sign every single offensive UFA first. Thank you for stopping me from making the biggest mistake of my career. I couldn't have done it without you. Yours Truly, Ken Holland This post is classless and not nearly as intelligent as you had hoped. Normally, I wouldn't care, but Mods shouldn't be taking personal attacks against other posters. And big deal, he would prefer Weber over Suter. So would I. Can you ask Ken Holland to send me a sarcastic letter? Edited June 11, 2012 by HelmFan 1 PredsFanTheBayouState reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 This post is classless and not nearly as intelligent as you had hoped. Normally, I wouldn't care, but Mods shouldn't be taking personal attacks against other posters. And big deal, he would prefer Weber over Suter. So would I. Can you ask Ken Holland to send me a sarcastic letter? You don't find it a bit curious that the OP is asking Ken Holland to do something anyone in their right mind already knows he's gonna do? The thing that frustrates me is why does this OP believe that Holland would do anything but his proven recipe in this offseason, which just so happens to be the most devastating one he's had to deal with. While it may be a tough-love post, the fact of the matter is that we continue to hear from members that state Holland is an idiot, Holland sucks, I could run this team better....and they get downright annoying, especially when the OP is stating the obvious. 4 hillbillywingsfan, anthonyn66, number9 and 1 other reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vladdy16 2,154 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 This post is classless and not nearly as intelligent as you had hoped. Normally, I wouldn't care, but Mods shouldn't be taking personal attacks against other posters. And big deal, he would prefer Weber over Suter. So would I. Can you ask Ken Holland to send me a sarcastic letter? I hate to burst your self-righteous bubble, but there's no personal attack in here. It is, however, oozing sarcasm, which last I checked wasn't against forum guidelines. I do agree that if the Wings sign Suter, that makes the thought of Weber being a Wing even more distasteful to the Preds, if that's at all possible. They will break the bank to keep him, not having learned from Columbus' mistake. 1 hillbillywingsfan reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pucktividi 472 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 My point was... Lidstrom can't fight and blow people off their skates. Ok who let Don Cherry on lgw ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hillbillywingsfan 792 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 This post is classless and not nearly as intelligent as you had hoped. Normally, I wouldn't care, but Mods shouldn't be taking personal attacks against other posters. And big deal, he would prefer Weber over Suter. So would I. Can you ask Ken Holland to send me a sarcastic letter? Classless and personal attack??? really? I just don't see it at all. It was a sarcastic post for an OP like many of you on here that think after all we have lost that Holland is just going to sit on his hands and let the team stay like it is and not try for anything....Do you guys really believe that? Really? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buppy 1,720 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 The Preds have $38M in cap space, a handful of decent roleplayers already signed for cheap, and a few more that should be cheap to re-sign. They are prefectly capable of paying Weber $10M+ and still filling out a decent roster in the $55-60M range. You're not going to hurt them by forcing them to pay a little more than they want. Giving up 4 firsts isn't just giving up 4 players we could protentially draft. It's also giving up the ability to trade those picks in the future. Between that and needing to significantly overpay to get him, you sacrifice a lot of flexibility. If he didn't mesh well with our system, or other holes in the lineup appear, we could still end up out of the playoffs...possibly giving up one or more top-10 picks. Maybe not likely, but it's a big risk to take for the right to overpay someone. I'll say again, the RFA system is designed to very heaviliy favor the team owning the RFA rights. It gives a little bargaining power to the player, but little risk of the team losing its young assets. Offer sheets are very, very rarely worth making. It would have to be a team unable to match a fair offer or a player that the owning team isn't interested in keeping. 1 PredsFanTheBayouState reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LeftWinger 4,953 Report post Posted June 11, 2012 Speaking of signing players....there seems to be alot of us wishing for Harding to be Howards backup...what about Gustavsson or Clemmensen? Johnson seems to have lost his backup spot in Pitt as well...Al Montoya? Even Marty Biron had a nice season... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
