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Message to Ken Holland...


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#41 MrBest7

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:05 PM

Weber isn't worth it this offseason



I strongly disagree... Weber is Nick Lidstrom/Scott Stevens/Stu Grimson in one player.

#42 Crymson

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:24 PM

I strongly disagree... Weber is Nick Lidstrom/Scott Stevens/Stu Grimson in one player.


You're either trolling or you think things of Weber that even the most ardent Predators homer would not agree with.

#43 YougotDatsyuked

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Posted 10 June 2012 - 09:35 PM

Weber is a pipe dream.

#44 number9

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:25 AM

I strongly disagree... Weber is Nick Lidstrom/Scott Stevens/Stu Grimson in one player.


Even comparing Weber to Lidstrom (let alone saying he is a Lidstrom/Lidstrom plus) should deeply offend you as not only a wings fan, but hockey fan in general. That's like saying Getzlaf is the next Gordie Howe. It's so stupid it's offensive. For crying out loud, the guy plays one all-star game with Lidstrom as his partner and all of the sudden people wanna throw the bank at him....Doughty has more sense and skill then Weber does and nobodies talkin about tradin the farm for him....and Doughty can't hold a flame to Lidstrom either....the only players that should ever be in the same conversation as Nick are Orr and Bourque, That's it.

#45 Johnz96

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:48 AM

Even comparing Weber to Lidstrom (let alone saying he is a Lidstrom/Lidstrom plus) should deeply offend you as not only a wings fan, but hockey fan in general. That's like saying Getzlaf is the next Gordie Howe. It's so stupid it's offensive. For crying out loud, the guy plays one all-star game with Lidstrom as his partner and all of the sudden people wanna throw the bank at him....Doughty has more sense and skill then Weber does and nobodies talkin about tradin the farm for him....and Doughty can't hold a flame to Lidstrom either....the only players that should ever be in the same conversation as Nick are Orr and Bourque, That's it.


He didn't say the best of Lidstrom, Stevens and Grimson. I think it's a fair analogy if you mix those 3 players DNA you would get someone like Weber. Grimson had pugilistic abilities and a hard shot but not much skill or hockey sense detracting from the skill and hockey sense Lidstrom's and Stevens' DNA brings to the mix.
Doughty unfortunately is signed till 2019 and I would also much rather have him than Suter as he is more physical and shoots right but Weber would be ideal for the Wings because he can also protect our stars and our crease

#46 Johnz96

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 12:57 AM

Now? don't turn into a maple leaf fan on me lol patience and smart decisions wins cups. Would you rather win the cup next year, or 3 times over the next 10 years?

a draft pick is an asset, not a person, average apple does not mean average player...as soon as you think of it that way you've missed the point.

Edit: Forgot to reiterate one of my previous points: Having a Norris caliber D-man on your roster does not equal a championship


I think we all know Holland won't do the offer sheet. That being said is Weber worth 4 first round picks? We can look at what the Wings drafted in the past for an idea on how much it would cost the Wings but even that would not be exact as nobody knows what young players will be available in the next 4 drafts in that draft position. Plus would Nashville pick the same players the Wings would pick?...not likely. Then those players would likely take 3 to 5 years to make it to the NHL (if they even make it). 4 players that are unknown for 1 that you know is not only an NHL player but arguably the best d-man in the world.. Here are some stats on NHL drafting in the 1st round:

Success rate of first-round draft picks

To define whether a player "makes it," let's set the threshold at 200 NHL games. We'll call them "career players."


•Of the 494 career players drafted in the 1990s, 160 were selected in the first round.
•Of those 160 career players, over half have played more than 500 NHL games.
•Among the older players (those drafted from 1990 to 1994), six first-round picks have made it to 1,000 games. Another couple of dozen are still active and within reach of 1,000.
•Based on the 1990s sample, a first-round draft pick has a 63 percent chance of being a career player.
Results can vary widely from year to year:

•The 1993 NHL Draft produced 22 career players from 26 first-round picks.
•In 1999, less than half of the first-round selections went on to become career players (12 out of 28).


So 63% chance of being an NHL player but a lot less of being a star or super star player and those stats are for all first round picks (including top 10's) and not just late first rounders which is where the Wings would likely pick.

With all that being said, i think it would be worth the picks if the Wings got him long term. A bird in hand is worth 4 in the bush

If we were to get Weber this year and with Smith a tough customer himself whose goal is to add some muscle over the summer), add Iginla either at the trade deadline or next year as a UFA and add Svitov (considered one of the best defensive forwards in the KHL who is great on faceoffs and even meaner and nastier than Weber) we would go from being THE smallest, least physical team in the league to being one of the biggest, THE toughest and hardest to play against while adding to our already impressive skill level.




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http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ARmU8WUPwbc (Beauchemin is the guy that knocked out Kopecky for the rest of the season with one punch)

Edited by Johnz96, 11 June 2012 - 01:29 AM.


#47 Johnz96

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 01:32 AM

why would there be a stupid limit on how much media we add to a post WTF!

Edited by Johnz96, 11 June 2012 - 01:39 AM.


#48 number9

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 02:42 AM

He didn't say the best of Lidstrom, Stevens and Grimson. I think it's a fair analogy if you mix those 3 players DNA you would get someone like Weber. Grimson had pugilistic abilities and a hard shot but not much skill or hockey sense detracting from the skill and hockey sense Lidstrom's and Stevens' DNA brings to the mix.
Doughty unfortunately is signed till 2019 and I would also much rather have him than Suter as he is more physical and shoots right but Weber would be ideal for the Wings because he can also protect our stars and our crease


....Come on guy, do I really need to tell you to go back and read the comment again?We all know what he was saying.... A fair analogy would have been Souray/Stuart/Boyle/Carkner. By your logic we should be calling Smith a Konstantinov/Lidstrom/Chelios combo cause he can hit, has offensive sense, and a little mean streak....Even though we all know Smith is not comparable to either of those 3 players or the skills they possessed.

I think we all know Holland won't do the offer sheet. That being said is Weber worth 4 first round picks? We can look at what the Wings drafted in the past for an idea on how much it would cost the Wings but even that would not be exact as nobody knows what young players will be available in the next 4 drafts in that draft position. Plus would Nashville pick the same players the Wings would pick?...not likely. Then those players would likely take 3 to 5 years to make it to the NHL (if they even make it). 4 players that are unknown for 1 that you know is not only an NHL player but arguably the best d-man in the world.. Here are some stats on NHL drafting in the 1st round:

Success rate of first-round draft picks

To define whether a player "makes it," let's set the threshold at 200 NHL games. We'll call them "career players."


•Of the 494 career players drafted in the 1990s, 160 were selected in the first round.
•Of those 160 career players, over half have played more than 500 NHL games.
•Among the older players (those drafted from 1990 to 1994), six first-round picks have made it to 1,000 games. Another couple of dozen are still active and within reach of 1,000.
•Based on the 1990s sample, a first-round draft pick has a 63 percent chance of being a career player.
Results can vary widely from year to year:

•The 1993 NHL Draft produced 22 career players from 26 first-round picks.
•In 1999, less than half of the first-round selections went on to become career players (12 out of 28).


So 63% chance of being an NHL player but a lot less of being a star or super star player and those stats are for all first round picks (including top 10's) and not just late first rounders which is where the Wings would likely pick.

With all that being said, i think it would be worth the picks if the Wings got him long term. A bird in hand is worth 4 in the bush

If we were to get Weber this year and with Smith a tough customer himself whose goal is to add some muscle over the summer), add Iginla either at the trade deadline or next year as a UFA and add Svitov (considered one of the best defensive forwards in the KHL who is great on faceoffs and even meaner and nastier than Weber) we would go from being THE smallest, least physical team in the league to being one of the biggest, THE toughest and hardest to play against while adding to our already impressive skill level.


"a draft pick is an asset, not a person, average apple does not mean average player...as soon as you think of it that way you've missed the point."


...Did you not read before responding? In one ear and out the other? lol





#49 Johnz96

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 02:58 AM

....Come on guy, do I really need to tell you to go back and read the comment again?We all know what he was saying.... A fair analogy would have been Souray/Stuart/Boyle/Carkner. By your logic we should be calling Smith a Konstantinov/Lidstrom/Chelios combo cause he can hit, has offensive sense, and a little mean streak....Even though we all know Smith is not comparable to either of those 3 players or the skills they possessed.



"a draft pick is an asset, not a person, average apple does not mean average player...as soon as you think of it that way you've missed the point."


...Did you not read before responding? In one ear and out the other? lol




I disagree with you there, it's the stars that are the difference makers average players are a dime a dozen readily available every year as free agents.
I am hoping (and believe he has the skills) that Smith develops into a Norris trophy candidate d-man
I know that obviously Holland won't do what I suggested and I know that if I was the GM and it was my goal to bring in Weber, Iginla and Svitov that the likelihood of accomplishing specifically that would be next to impossible, but if we could and did, I think we would have the best team in the league for the next 4 or 5 years which still wouldn't guarantee a Cup in that time, but there are going to be so many other UFAs next year that meet our needs for size and toughness while also providing skill that I woudn't blow our wad on Suter AND Parise and especially not Semin although I think he would be a 40+ goal scorer on the Wings but he woud also piss Babcock , Howard and our fan base off a lot but that didn't stop him from playing Bert a lot, or an obviously ineffective and injured Hossa in the SCF in 09.

#50 number9

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:21 AM

I disagree with you there, it's the stars that are the difference makers average players are a dime a dozen readily available every year as free agents.
I am hoping (and believe he has the skills) that Smith develops into a Norris trophy candidate d-man
I know that obviously Holland won't do what I suggested and I know that if I was the GM and it was my goal to bring in Weber, Iginla and Svitov that the likelihood of accomplishing specifically that would be next to impossible, but if we could and did, I think we would have the best team in the league for the next 4 or 5 years which still wouldn't guarantee a Cup in that time, but there are going to be so many other UFAs next year that meet our needs for size and toughness while also providing skill that I woudn't blow our wad on Suter AND Parise and especially not Semin although I think he would be a 40+ goal scorer on the Wings but he woud also piss Babcock , Howard and our fan base off a lot but that didn't stop him from playing Bert a lot, or an obviously ineffective and injured Hossa in the SCF in 09.


UH OH somebody never watched miracle lol players don't win cups dude, teams do.....dime a dozen eh? Helms? Kronwalls? Holmstroms? Filppulas? Fischers? Drapers? Howards? Franzens? (the list goes on and on and on) Why didn't you tell anyone we can just get one of those guys anywhere??? Somebody go tell Holland we've been doing it wrong the whole time lol.

I don't think you understood my point about business assets though.....I really don't wanna explain the fundamentals of business, so long story short: you don't pay a lot for a little. If you were a GM and you were to sign Weber for 8.5 million AND give up 3 first round picks, you would probably be fired on the spot....and your talking about four picks sir! Four!




#51 Johnz96

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 03:46 AM

UH OH somebody never watched miracle lol players don't win cups dude, teams do.....dime a dozen eh? Helms? Kronwalls? Holmstroms? Filppulas? Fischers? Drapers? Howards? Franzens? (the list goes on and on and on) Why didn't you tell anyone we can just get one of those guys anywhere??? Somebody go tell Holland we've been doing it wrong the whole time lol.

I don't think you understood my point about business assets though.....I really don't wanna explain the fundamentals of business, so long story short: you don't pay a lot for a little. If you were a GM and you were to sign Weber for 8.5 million AND give up 3 first round picks, you would probably be fired on the spot....and your talking about four picks sir! Four!




http://capgeek.com/ufa_finder.php
As long as you got Datsyuk, Z, Fil, Iginla, Weber, Kronwall, Smith and Howard, you can fill out the rest of the team with guys on this list and still ice a great team and only one of the guys you mentioned was actually a first. In fact Red Wings accumulated all their homegrown talent with 6 first rounders in the last 16 years.

#52 number9

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:02 AM

http://capgeek.com/ufa_finder.php
As long as you got Datsyuk, Z, Fil, Iginla, Weber, Kronwall, Smith and Howard, you can fill out the rest of the team with guys on this list and still ice a great team and only one of the guys you mentioned was actually a first. In fact Red Wings accumulated all their homegrown talent with 6 first rounders in the last 16 years.


Good god that wasn't the point at all. I dont care what round any of those players were taken in, the point is they are not dime a dozen players.

Sir you are operating in hockey fantasy land. I'm sorry but this is going nowhere fast with you. Good luck to you on this forum...your gonna need it.

#53 Johnz96

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:15 AM

Good god that wasn't the point at all. I dont care what round any of those players were taken in, the point is they are not dime a dozen players.

Sir you are operating in hockey fantasy land. I'm sorry but this is going nowhere fast with you. Good luck to you on this forum...your gonna need it.


Thanks.
Hope they don't eat me alive
Most of them have a grass is greener on the other side and the glass is empty outlook on things and think we should get rid of our top 2 goal scorers and in fact hate them,
I am here to hopefully edify a few of them.

Edited by Johnz96, 11 June 2012 - 04:22 AM.


#54 number9

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:32 AM

Thanks.
Hope they don't eat me alive
Most of them have a grass is greener on the other side and the glass is empty outlook on things and think we should get rid of our top 2 goal scorers and in fact hate them,
I am here to hopefully edify a few of them.


No most of the people here are incredibly knowledgeable.....they just end up spending all their time replying to the few crazies who wanna blow the team up and submit an overpriced offer sheet to an overpriced defenseman Posted Image

#55 Johnz96

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 04:42 AM

No most of the people here are incredibly knowledgeable.....they just end up spending all their time replying to the few crazies who wanna blow the team up and submit an overpriced offer sheet to an overpriced defenseman Posted Image


Knowledgeable?. Most of them want to get rid of our 2 top goal scorers, there was debate here as to if the OHL is better than the NCAA. Some people saying that we don't draft well and don't have good prospects
I don't want to blow this team up, I like em all, even our top 2 goal scorers
You know except for Hudler and Weber I generally agree about most things with you. Why cna';t you just agree to disagree about these 2 things?

Edited by Johnz96, 11 June 2012 - 05:26 AM.


#56 Dabura

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:32 AM

[Dan Girardi]

Don't Toews me, bro!


#57 LeftWinger

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 08:38 AM

He didn't say the best of Lidstrom, Stevens and Grimson. I think it's a fair analogy if you mix those 3 players DNA you would get someone like Weber. Grimson had pugilistic abilities and a hard shot but not much skill or hockey sense detracting from the skill and hockey sense Lidstrom's and Stevens' DNA brings to the mix.
Doughty unfortunately is signed till 2019 and I would also much rather have him than Suter as he is more physical and shoots right but Weber would be ideal for the Wings because he can also protect our stars and our crease

I would say that Weber is a fair comparison to Scott Stevens. Period. First of all, he is nowhere near Lidstrom offensively on consistent basis and he is nowhere near as tough as Grimson. But ya, I would say Scott Stevens is a great compare. If he only signs another one year deal, and the Wings fail to get Suter, Weber will be Detroit's prime target as a UFA next year...No way is he worth 4 1st round picks (or is anyone for that matter,) so he is not worth throwing an offer at this year...

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#58 Johnz96

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:51 AM

I would say that Weber is a fair comparison to Scott Stevens. Period. First of all, he is nowhere near Lidstrom offensively on consistent basis and he is nowhere near as tough as Grimson. But ya, I would say Scott Stevens is a great compare. If he only signs another one year deal, and the Wings fail to get Suter, Weber will be Detroit's prime target as a UFA next year...No way is he worth 4 1st round picks (or is anyone for that matter,) so he is not worth throwing an offer at this year...


He has a better shot than Stevens did

Edited by Johnz96, 11 June 2012 - 09:52 AM.


#59 MrBest7

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:52 AM

Alright, I am going to give you two responses here... One really short summed up response, and another with more text.

Response One: You are off your rocker!

Response Two: There is no way in hell that Holland is going to throw an offer sheet at Weber for 8.5million and give up three first round picks. That is crazy, and absolutely stupid. Yes Weber is good but to make a move like that is beyond awful. Why do you think it has ever been done before? Also, do you have a crystal ball? Thinking that 6 million for Suter and then Parise on long term contracts just guarantee the wings got both of them guys in the bag? I think you need to hop of that cloud you are on and come back down to Earth. Last but not least what is up with that laundry list you made? If those are justifications on why were getting Weber, Suter, and Parise then its like comparing apples to oranges. Those facts have nothing to do what so ever with acquiring those players. Weber will not be a wing this season, Holland will no way throw an offer sheet at him. I say we have a 50-60% chance to sign Suter and Parise but your assumption they we got them is just asinine.

Oh yeah, and one more thing, Suter and Parise are NOT best friends. They might be labeled as "friends" but to say they are best friends and are going to sign together is a little far fetched. No guarantees of that either. I wouldn't bank to much on if you sign one you got the other.


Okay... I can't believe all the bad assumptions and mis-information this post had...

First, Suter and Parise ARE best friends. Second, the likelihood of the Wings signing Suter is 90 percent. Signing both Suter and Parise is about 80 percent.
Read these articles...http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120524/SPORTS0103/205240354/1128/Wings-perfect-fit-Ryan-Suter-Zach-Parise
http://prohockeytalk...-the-same-team/

Third, my point for the list was to show the Red Wings were never built around 1st round draft picks. In fact, we have had better luck in the 3rd round than the first!

Fourth, offering $8.5 to Weber forces a small market like Nashville to over extend itself. This is why we need to first sign Suter...then offer Weber. Keep in mind...both Suter and Weber each play on the ice for HALF THE GAME! (30 minutes...keeping the other defenseman fresh) Our divisional rivals would be set back for the next 5 years!

#60 Johnz96

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Posted 11 June 2012 - 09:56 AM

Okay... I can't believe all the bad assumptions and mis-information this post had...

First, Suter and Parise ARE best friends. Second, the likelihood of the Wings signing Suter is 90 percent. Signing both Suter and Parise is about 80 percent.
Read these articles...http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120524/SPORTS0103/205240354/1128/Wings-perfect-fit-Ryan-Suter-Zach-Parise
http://prohockeytalk...-the-same-team/

Third, my point for the list was to show the Red Wings were never built around 1st round draft picks. In fact, we have had better luck in the 3rd round than the first!

Fourth, offering $8.5 to Weber forces a small market like Nashville to over extend itself. This is why we need to first sign Suter...then offer Weber. Keep in mind...both Suter and Weber each play on the ice for HALF THE GAME! (30 minutes...keeping the other defenseman fresh) Our divisional rivals would be set back for the next 5 years!


If you sign Suter the preds are sure to match Weber?





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