211 replies to this topic

[amato]

Semin scored a goal every 61 mins od ice-time this year
Parise scored a goal every 56 mins of ice-time this year
Hudler scored a goal every 50 mins of ice-time this year
Franzen scored a goal every 47 mins of ice-time this year

Franzen and huds were also on the wings. I think either parise or semin in our line up scores goals every < 47 mins of ice time.

Still I agree, it's a pretty cool stat. Not something you look at all the time.

[kipwinger]

Franzen and huds were also on the wings. I think either parise or semin in our line up scores goals every < 47 mins of ice time.

Still I agree, it's a pretty cool stat. Not something you look at all the time.

I was being sarcastic. The stat is absurd because it doesn't take into consideration quality of line mates, quality of competition, offensive vs. defensive zone starts, etc. It's a s*** stat. But by looking at it you would have to conclude that Hudler and Franzen score more often then Zach Parise. Except Parise's 69 pts. to their 50 and 56 pts. (respectively) would suggest otherwise. A stat like that actually penalizes a forward who draws tougher matchups and who frequently is put on the ice in the defensive zone (e.g. is defensively responsible and therefore a better player).

What's I'm trying to say is...it's a real neat stat.

[dobbles]

Semin scored a goal every 61 mins od ice-time this year
Parise scored a goal every 56 mins of ice-time this year
Hudler scored a goal every 50 mins of ice-time this year
Franzen scored a goal every 47 mins of ice-time this year

if you look at only even strength, its:

Semin scored a goal every 58 mins of ice-time this year
Parise scored a goal every 63 mins of ice-time this year
Hudler scored a goal every 47 mins of ice-time this year
Franzen scored a goal every 63 mins of ice-time this year

while any statistic gives only a partial view, i find it funny that hudler was the most productive scorer 5v5 out of the 4. sure it all depends on linemates and other factors, but i just find it funny people continue to sell him short. (pun intended)

[kipwinger]

if you look at only even strength, its:

Semin scored a goal every 58 mins of ice-time this year
Parise scored a goal every 63 mins of ice-time this year
Hudler scored a goal every 47 mins of ice-time this year
Franzen scored a goal every 63 mins of ice-time this year

while any statistic gives only a partial view, i find it funny that hudler was the most productive scorer 5v5 out of the 4. sure it all depends on linemates and other factors, but i just find it funny people continue to sell him short. (pun intended)

I don't think that this stats sells Hudler short. It actually elevates him and Franzen to the level of Zach Parise, which they clearly aren't. I'd say it actually gives them more credit than they deserve. And this is coming from a guy who has repeatedly defended Hudler and Franzen on this forum.

Edited by kipwinger, 18 June 2012 - 10:05 PM.

[dobbles]

I don't think that this stats sells Hudler short. It actually elevates him and Franzen to the level of Zach Parise, which they clearly aren't. I'd say it actually gives them more credit than they deserve. And this is coming from a guy who has repeatedly defended Hudler and Franzen on this forum.

i wasnt saying the statistic sold him short, but that other posters sold him short even though his even strength production was better than any of those other 3 guys.

like you, i dont go so far to imply hudler is as good as parise, i just think a lot of people keep dogging him when he had a pretty darn good year this year.

[ogreslayer]

like you, i dont go so far to imply hudler is as good as parise, i just think a lot of people keep dogging him when he had a pretty darn good year this year.

Agreed, he did have a pretty good year & the good news for him is that it was a contract year. With the lack of depth in the UFA market this summer, that means he'll probably get plenty of offers from teams that will be above what his worth should be. I'm just hoping one of those $4m+ a year offers doesn't come from one Kenny Holland. If Huds loves playing in Detroit, $3m a year would be more appropriate. I just don't see that happening though.

[Johnz96]

I was being sarcastic. The stat is absurd because it doesn't take into consideration quality of line mates, quality of competition, offensive vs. defensive zone starts, etc. It's a s*** stat. But by looking at it you would have to conclude that Hudler and Franzen score more often then Zach Parise. Except Parise's 69 pts. to their 50 and 56 pts. (respectively) would suggest otherwise. A stat like that actually penalizes a forward who draws tougher matchups and who frequently is put on the ice in the defensive zone (e.g. is defensively responsible and therefore a better player).

What's I'm trying to say is...it's a real neat stat.

Parise's 69 points is an absurd stat because it doesn't take into consideration quality of line mates, quality of competition, offensive vs. defensive zone starts, how much they play etc. It's a s*** stat.
Goals per minute played is a more informative stat than goals on it own. Parise scored as many goals as he did in part because of the ice-time he got; more than any Wings forwards and a lot more than Franzen or Hudler. If Franzen and Hudler played as much they would score more than they did
Unlike Hudler, Parise always played with NJ's best
I brought up the stat because people here knock Franzen for consistency and frequency of scoring goals and talk like Parise is going to be some messiah. he scores goals less frequently than Franzen or Hudler, he is another small finesse forward like we have so many of on our team and in the system and he is probably going to be way over payed.

Edited by Johnz96, 19 June 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[number9]

Parise's 69 points is an absurd stat because it doesn't take into consideration quality of line mates, quality of competition, offensive vs. defensive zone starts, how much they play etc. It's a s*** stat.
Goals per minute played is a more informative stat than goals on it own. Parise scored as many goals as he did in part because of the ice-time he got; more than any Wings forwards and a lot more than Franzen or Hudler. If Franzen and Hudler played as much they would score more than they did
Unlike Hudler, Parise always played with NJ's best
I brought up the stat because people here knock Franzen for consistency and frequency of scoring goals and talk like Parise is going to be some messiah. he scores goals less frequently than Franzen or Hudler, he is another small finesse forward like we have so many of on our team and in the system and he is probably going to be way over payed.

Well if you ever decide to actually watch a hockey game or two you might notice that: Parise >>>>>>>> Hudler...everyday of the week and on weekends.

[Hatethedrake!]

If we want pure offensive firepower...

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Zach Parise ($7.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Alexander Semin ($5.000m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Justin Abdelkader ($1.500m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Jan Mursak ($0.550m)
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Ryan Suter ($7.000m)
Ian White ($2.875m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.250m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Dwayne Roloson ($1.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $69,833,712; BONUSES: $37,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $466,288

[Johnz96]

Well if you ever decide to actually watch a hockey game or two you might notice that: Parise >>>>>>>> Hudler...everyday of the week and on weekends.

I never said Hudler was better just that Hudler scores more frequently and if u think Parise is >>>>>>>>>> rather than just > Hudler maybe you should actually watch a game or 2 without s*** colored glasses on. The grass is not always greener on the other side.
Hudler at $4 mill is much better to have than Parise at $8

[Hatethedrake!]

I never said Hudler was better just that Hudler scores more frequently and if u think Parise is >>>>>>>>>> rather than just > Hudler maybe you should actually watch a game or 2 without s*** colored glasses on. The grass is not always greener on the other side.
Hudler at $4 mill is much better to have than Parise at $8

I'd take Parise at 8 mil over Hudler at 4 mil. There is more to hockey than just stats. Parise's all around game is much like Dats. He has just as much value when he doesn't have the puck as he does when he has it.

[dobbles]

Agreed, he did have a pretty good year & the good news for him is that it was a contract year. With the lack of depth in the UFA market this summer, that means he'll probably get plenty of offers from teams that will be above what his worth should be. I'm just hoping one of those $4m+ a year offers doesn't come from one Kenny Holland. If Huds loves playing in Detroit, $3m a year would be more appropriate. I just don't see that happening though.

i agree totally. i guess our middle of the road attitude isnt as fun as all the hyperbole that gets thrown around in the thread!

to me, i would go a little higher. i would be happy with something as long as it was under 4. to me, 3.5 or 3.75 is still a good number. but like you said, that still probably isn't enough to keep him.

heck, look at good ole ville leino... he only put up 53 points after that great playoff and that got him a 4.5 average hit. i think thats a pretty comparable contract because while hudler didnt have a great playoff run to up his value, at least he has more of a track record. leino got that big contract after only 1 quality nhl season...

[number9]

I never said Hudler was better just that Hudler scores more frequently and if u think Parise is >>>>>>>>>> rather than just > Hudler maybe you should actually watch a game or 2 without s*** colored glasses on. The grass is not always greener on the other side.
Hudler at $4 mill is much better to have than Parise at $8

lol dude the last thing I am is a grass is greener kind of guy.....i am in touch with reality though, and Parise is a much much much better hockey player than Hudler, I don't care what bogus stat your looking at.

If someone gave you the option of having Hudler at 4 mill or Parise at 8 mill and you actually took Hudler I'd lose all faith in the hockey gods

[dobbles]

I was being sarcastic. The stat is absurd because it doesn't take into consideration quality of line mates, quality of competition, offensive vs. defensive zone starts, etc. It's a s*** stat. But by looking at it you would have to conclude that Hudler and Franzen score more often then Zach Parise. Except Parise's 69 pts. to their 50 and 56 pts. (respectively) would suggest otherwise. A stat like that actually penalizes a forward who draws tougher matchups and who frequently is put on the ice in the defensive zone (e.g. is defensively responsible and therefore a better player).

What's I'm trying to say is...it's a real neat stat.

while there is merit to what you are saying, i would contend it only has a small impact in this case. all players were top 6 guys all year. all the guys had other great linemates and were often targeted by other teams as lines that needed shut down.

additionally, another thing that would need to be taken into consideration is east vs. west. while i certainly dont want to open a can of worms about which is better, its hard to deny that all the offensive firepower was in the east. 9 of the top 10 goal scorers and 9 of the top 10 point getters were in the east. goal scoring by east teams was in their favor 3480-3264. the top 3 scoring teams were in the east and the bottom 4 were in the west. so really stats should skew towards guys like parise and semin.


in the bigger picture, all stats need context and no 1 statistic is perfect. but to me the stats looking at how many goals per minute have value. is helps people to remember that hudler and franzen have value and that parise isn't going to suddenly solve all of our goal scoring problems.

[chrisdetroit]

The Hudler hate is strong with this one.

Kenny will offer him $3-3.5M and Huds will say no thanks. He's a 1 dimensional player that puts up 20 goals/year. He will not be back so LGW will have to find a new #1 whipping boy. I expect Mule will move up to #1.

[Hatethedrake!]

The Hudler hate is strong with this one.

Kenny will offer him $3-3.5M and Huds will say no thanks. He's a 1 dimensional player that puts up 20 goals/year. He will not be back so LGW will have to find a new #1 whipping boy. I expect Mule will move up to #1.

Early favourites for LGW whipping boy are: Franzen, Quincey, Abdelkader, Ericsson. Wait, that's the same group we had at the end of the playoffs minus Hudler.

[ogreslayer]

Early favourites for LGW whipping boy are: Franzen, Quincey, Abdelkader, Ericsson. Wait, that's the same group we had at the end of the playoffs minus Hudler.

Personally, I'm hoping for Ryan Suter to become the new whipping boy for not being nearly as perfect as Nick was.

[sleepwalker]

i just think a lot of people keep dogging him when he had a pretty darn good year this year.

I don't think anyones main beef with Hudler is that he can't score points. Its that his size is a MAJOR liability. Even with his MMA training and getting all diesel a slight breeze in the rink is still enough to knock him off the puck...

[kipwinger]

i wasnt saying the statistic sold him short, but that other posters sold him short even though his even strength production was better than any of those other 3 guys.

like you, i dont go so far to imply hudler is as good as parise, i just think a lot of people keep dogging him when he had a pretty darn good year this year.

I completely agree. Hudler had a great year. What holds Hudler back is his lack of size and speed, and obviously there's nothing he can do about that. But he works really hard and has no problem going to the right areas of the ice and all that. I wish that more guys on our team had his work ethic and willingness to do what it takes to play the game right. I also wish that God had been more generous to Jiri in the size and speed department.

[dobbles]

I don't think anyones main beef with Hudler is that he can't score points. Its that his size is a MAJOR liability. Even with his MMA training and getting all diesel a slight breeze in the rink is still enough to knock him off the puck...

personally, i don't think that his lack of size and strength were significant liabilities this year. sure, he gets muscled off the puck a decent amount. but think through the season, and i don't recall any significant stretch where that was a problem with that line. for the first quarter or third of the season it was definitely Z who was killing plays and i think once he got it together, that line was very dangerous, and aside from being a huge source of goals was also one of the best lines at generating chances and keeping puck posession.

to me, it was franzens lack of effort that caused lost battles, clearys bad knee that caused dead end plays in the zone, and berts lack of creativity as he glides around the zone with one hand on his stick doing nothing effective. those are the guys that hurt the offense.

sure hudler has his shortcomings. if he didnt, he would be an 8 mil a year top line player. but to me, he was still a very effective player and would be a solid contributor next year if brought back at a decent salary. his line was a good line and to me its the top line that needs redone and the bottom 6 that needs sorted out and toughened up.