Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Parise and Suter - how much are they really worth?


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

#1 Yzerman191

Yzerman191

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,245 posts
  • Location:Waterford, MI

Posted 17 June 2012 - 01:34 PM

Due to the desperation around the board to obtain Parise and Suter, really the only two high profile UFAs this year, I've seen figures all over the place on how high Holland should go. Realistically, what are they worth? When should Holland just walk away?

Ryan Suter has never finished top three (or even top five) in Norris voting. Maybe he's just underrated, but last year, for example, he finished 15th in Norris voting. The most points he's ever had in a season is just 46 - one might say he's similar in offensive capabilities to Kronwall or Wideman, both of whom are around ~$5M. He's also largely considered to be the second best defenseman on his own team (which isn't necessarily a knock on him). With that said, he's a big hitter, has a great shot, and is only 27 years old. If push comes to shove, what is he worth? Is he worth the $7M+ that is being thrown around? Is he worth more than Chara, Keith, or Weber?

Zach Parise is three seasons removed from scoring in the 40-goal/90-point range. He had 69 points last year in the regular season (his first after a huge knee injury), and just 15 points in 24 playoff games. His 31 goals are just 6 more than Hudler's 25, and 2 more than Franzen's (the LGW scapegoat) 29. Parise has a great work ethic, and is also known for his two-way game. However, one might argue (again) that he's not even the best forward on his own team, and his accomplishments to date don't rank him up with the league's elite. People have put huge price tags on his head - $7.5M-8M. Is he worth it? Crosby is rumored to be looking for $9M, Stamkos is locked up at $7.5M, Kovalchuk is locked up long term for $6.7M, etc. How high is too high? When does Ken Holland walk away, and think about pursuing Perry, Getzlaf, Iginla, etc. the following year?

What do you think?

#2 SaCkaveli20

SaCkaveli20

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,085 posts
  • Location:Woodstock, Ontario

Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:12 PM

Suter I think will thrive here, I don't believe we have a shot to land Parise (although I hope i'm wrong)
If I'm Holland though, I'm throwing a truck load of money at both and take the risk.


If we don't land Parise, Semin would be the logical option. For all of the flack Semin gets on the boards, I think he'll be a pleasant surprise to everyone next year. Datsyuk just needs to get him to buy into the system.
Bring in Konopka to punch faces and win faceoffs as well.

#3 xBflinker

xBflinker

    Prospect

  • Member
  • 44 posts

Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:23 PM

Cap hit wise with long term deals:

Parise cap hit $7-7.5 million
Suter cap hit $6-6.5 million

Remember these are cap hit numbers, their actual salaries will be more. With long term deals I think these would be fair cap hits based on comparable players.

Suter I think will thrive here, I don't believe we have a shot to land Parise (although I hope i'm wrong)
If I'm Holland though, I'm throwing a truck load of money at both and take the risk.


If we don't land Parise, Semin would be the logical option. For all of the flack Semin gets on the boards, I think he'll be a pleasant surprise to everyone next year. Datsyuk just needs to get him to buy into the system.
Bring in Konopka to punch faces and win faceoffs as well.


I agree with Semin as a backup plan. He is a natural goal scorer who lacks motivation, but a change of scenery and a new system/playing with Datsyuk, could change that. I would say that he'd be well worth the risk if he can be had at a 1-2 year deal for no more than $5.5 million. I think he'd easily be a 30 goal scorer with Datsyuk centering his line.

#4 Z Winged Dangler

Z Winged Dangler

    Part 3: Return of the Hammer Hands

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,198 posts
  • Location:Winnipeg, MB

Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:50 PM

the big thing with Suter and Parise is not so much that they're the best players on their teams, but that they play the game right. they have that workman attitude that would fit great with the Wings and that's why they're a perfect fit for this organization. i'd rather have guys like them then Semin, Kovalchuk, Green...guys that like to be flashy but provide only that to the team. i'd rather have Parise cause he's works his ass off every shift and forchecks like a bulldog and despite his 15 points in 24 playoff games, he was one of the big reasons they were there cause his work ethic rubbed off on the rest of the guys except Kovalchuk, he's just a prima donna dbag. Suter is the calm dman we need to replace Lids back there to play big minutes with Kronner and maybe with Smith to have a strong D partner to help get him to that top tier as an NHL dman. Those 2 are exactly what the Wings need to be back on top. add in a guy like Prust and things are great for us Wings fans. I still thing Schultz and Garrison are good pickups too if Holland can wrangle up a crew and say, hey...let's win the next 5 cups. K go.

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#5 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:56 PM

Due to the desperation around the board to obtain Parise and Suter, really the only two high profile UFAs this year, I've seen figures all over the place on how high Holland should go. Realistically, what are they worth? When should Holland just walk away?

Ryan Suter has never finished top three (or even top five) in Norris voting. Maybe he's just underrated, but last year, for example, he finished 15th in Norris voting. The most points he's ever had in a season is just 46 - one might say he's similar in offensive capabilities to Kronwall or Wideman, both of whom are around ~$5M. He's also largely considered to be the second best defenseman on his own team (which isn't necessarily a knock on him). With that said, he's a big hitter, has a great shot, and is only 27 years old. If push comes to shove, what is he worth? Is he worth the $7M+ that is being thrown around? Is he worth more than Chara, Keith, or Weber?

Zach Parise is three seasons removed from scoring in the 40-goal/90-point range. He had 69 points last year in the regular season (his first after a huge knee injury), and just 15 points in 24 playoff games. His 31 goals are just 6 more than Hudler's 25, and 2 more than Franzen's (the LGW scapegoat) 29. Parise has a great work ethic, and is also known for his two-way game. However, one might argue (again) that he's not even the best forward on his own team, and his accomplishments to date don't rank him up with the league's elite. People have put huge price tags on his head - $7.5M-8M. Is he worth it? Crosby is rumored to be looking for $9M, Stamkos is locked up at $7.5M, Kovalchuk is locked up long term for $6.7M, etc. How high is too high? When does Ken Holland walk away, and think about pursuing Perry, Getzlaf, Iginla, etc. the following year?

What do you think?

"Worth" is more than just a dollar per dollar comparison to other contracts. There are 21 teams with $20M+ in cap space, and there's not a whole lot to spend it on. Then factor in age, term, what the cap was when other players signed their deals, and that RFAs don't have as much bargaining power. Richards averages $9M over the first 6 years of his deal. The market determines worth more than other player's salaries.

Suter isn't a big hitter at all, and doesn't have that great a shot. But he is a shut-down defender with solid offensive skills. With the loss of Nick and Stuart, we desperately need both. We have a ton of cap space, and few roster spots available. Is Suter "worth" $7-8M, compared to what Keith/Chara/etc. are making? Maybe not. But he'd certainly improve the Wings enough to be worth 25-30% of our available cap space, considering there aren't really any good alternatives. Though if we offer a deal that takes him near 40, I'd expect it to be at the low end of that range...$6.5ish.

Parise isn't nearly as much of a need, but again we do have the space. Many, probably most, of the big names who will be in the final year of their current contracts will be resigned. No guarantees that any impact player will actually hit the market. With Pav, Hank, and Mule all over 30, Parise could be our best shot at a star to help bridge the gap to our next generation.

Of our potential UFAs in the next few years, only Howard and Pav are really that important. Pav will be 36 and his hit won't likely go up. We can probably assume some inflation of the cap. We can likely count on a few young guys to make the team to open up more space. I think we can afford $8M (for short to mid-term, 3-5 years) for both without handcuffing ourselves in the future. Could likely do that, and sign another decent defenseman and still have ~$3M left under the cap.

All of that pending what happens with the CBA. Obviously, that could change everything.

#6 SaCkaveli20

SaCkaveli20

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,085 posts
  • Location:Woodstock, Ontario

Posted 17 June 2012 - 02:57 PM

the big thing with Suter and Parise is not so much that they're the best players on their teams, but that they play the game right. they have that workman attitude that would fit great with the Wings and that's why they're a perfect fit for this organization. i'd rather have guys like them then Semin, Kovalchuk, Green...guys that like to be flashy but provide only that to the team. i'd rather have Parise cause he's works his ass off every shift and forchecks like a bulldog and despite his 15 points in 24 playoff games, he was one of the big reasons they were there cause his work ethic rubbed off on the rest of the guys except Kovalchuk, he's just a prima donna dbag. Suter is the calm dman we need to replace Lids back there to play big minutes with Kronner and maybe with Smith to have a strong D partner to help get him to that top tier as an NHL dman. Those 2 are exactly what the Wings need to be back on top. add in a guy like Prust and things are great for us Wings fans. I still thing Schultz and Garrison are good pickups too if Holland can wrangle up a crew and say, hey...let's win the next 5 cups. K go.


I strongly disagree. Kovalchuk has DRASTICALLY changed his game. I know there were a few games where it looked like he was floating around, but it's been confirmed he had a back injury. And us Red Wing fans can't really throw stones at those who aren't THAT effective nursing a back injury.
He's come along way since ATL.

#7 Crashnburnluder

Crashnburnluder

    Crashnburnluder

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,261 posts
  • Location:Lancater, Pennsylvania

Posted 17 June 2012 - 03:15 PM

I think the hardest part about judging there value is the inflating cap. 7+ million 4-5 years ago was rediculous, now it isn't so bad... If Datayuk was signing a contract now I think he would be in the 7.5-8 area because teams can afford those rates now....

This is why the long term deal is a risk but a risk worth taking... When the cap inflates the deals look even better then they did the year before.

#8 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 17 June 2012 - 03:17 PM

KuklasKorner on Parise, Suter Schultz, UFAs...
http://www.google.ca...ZAe61KAAEA_17tg

Edited by Johnz96, 17 June 2012 - 03:18 PM.


#9 LeftWinger

LeftWinger

    42 years in Detroit! Time to spend the rest in paradise!

  • Silver Booster
  • 8,618 posts
  • Location:HART - MI

Posted 17 June 2012 - 03:30 PM

unfortunately what they are worth and what they will get are two different amounts...

Most July 1st's we all are glad that Holland doesn't overpay to get a player (Wisniewski) because for the most part the Wings needs are just a few plugs here and there....BUT this July 1st is going to be the first time Ken Holland has faced this much of a hole to fill on D and for the first time he will be looking to solidify an offensive future that will eventually NOT include Datsyuk or Zetterberg. So with that being said, Holland is going to HAVE TO overpay to get Parise and Suter in order to help secure the transition AND replace the best he can Lidstrom/Stuart.

I am not sure how Holland will structure the cap hit for these guys, BUT I think inorder to make sure they sign here, he may have to front load the contract so they are between $8M-$10M in actually salary for a few years...I wouldn't be angry with Holland if the Cap hit was $8M for each of them. Like I said, usually he doesn't have to outbid other teams because we aren't usually in that much of a need, but today we are in need, big time. I think Holland MUST get Suter first and foremost, he is the #1 priority. Parise is 2nd...and it would be a greater lose if Holland didn't get Suter and only got Parise rather than vice-versa. If Holland doesn't get either then the Wings are in for a ruff season with all the back-up plans out there. Will they be bottom dwellers? No, but it will be a trying season.

So, my answer is both should top out at a cap hit of $8M if Holland has to outbid teams, the cap hit should NOT go any higher. Salaries are different, $10M for a few years is not out of the question and I would not be upset or consider it an over-payment only because Holland has to make these deals and outbid others in the process...


Priority 1: Suter

Don't Be Jealous, But I Live Here...

www.thinkdunes.com

 

Aww You Mad Bro? Are You Butt Hurt?


#10 GSBrooks13

GSBrooks13

    1st Line All-Star

  • Bronze Booster
  • 1,095 posts
  • Location:Halifax, NS

Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:56 PM

the big thing with Suter and Parise is not so much that they're the best players on their teams, but that they play the game right. they have that workman attitude that would fit great with the Wings and that's why they're a perfect fit for this organization. i'd rather have guys like them then Semin, Kovalchuk, Green...guys that like to be flashy but provide only that to the team. i'd rather have Parise cause he's works his ass off every shift and forchecks like a bulldog and despite his 15 points in 24 playoff games, he was one of the big reasons they were there cause his work ethic rubbed off on the rest of the guys except Kovalchuk, he's just a prima donna dbag. Suter is the calm dman we need to replace Lids back there to play big minutes with Kronner and maybe with Smith to have a strong D partner to help get him to that top tier as an NHL dman. Those 2 are exactly what the Wings need to be back on top. add in a guy like Prust and things are great for us Wings fans. I still thing Schultz and Garrison are good pickups too if Holland can wrangle up a crew and say, hey...let's win the next 5 cups. K go.


Is that you, Don Cherry?

"Push the dirt off your jersey then go for the cup or the trophy or the ring, champion no matter what."


#11 Nightfall

Nightfall

    My goal is to deny yours!

  • Gold Booster
  • 3,744 posts
  • Location:Grand Rapids

Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:32 PM

KuklasKorner on Parise, Suter Schultz, UFAs...
http://www.google.ca...ZAe61KAAEA_17tg

This was a good article and pretty much sums it up well. I really don't see a lot of action come July 1st with the CBA talks having not even started yet, but I am hoping for the best.
Christopher Brian Dudek
My Domain

#12 Red Crazy

Red Crazy

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 627 posts
  • Location:Manitoba, Canada

Posted 18 June 2012 - 07:27 AM

What they are worth depends on what the team needs. Suter is more valuable to this team then Parise at this moment. With the loss of both Lidstrom and Stuart this year and Rafalski last year we are starting to look thin on defense. Kronwall has been a touch injury prone over his career as well. Can you imagine if we don't land Suter and Kronner goes down for 20 games? It wont be pretty. Sure there is about 4-5 other players that I would rather have on defense other then Suter but he is maybe the best available and they are not. I'd say a cap hit of 7m should get him.

#13 Z Winged Dangler

Z Winged Dangler

    Part 3: Return of the Hammer Hands

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,198 posts
  • Location:Winnipeg, MB

Posted 18 June 2012 - 07:48 AM

Is that you, Don Cherry?

:lol:
I guess all those years of watching coaches corner rubbed off on me. i just am not a big fan of Kovalchuk. I know he had a back injury in the playoffs, but in general, he reminds me alot of Kovalev. All the talent in the world, but not the heart of a champ. Z has had chronic back issues, but still competes every shift, and when Dats went down earlier this season Z played through injuries and was a point per game while doing so. And thank god his back is getting better by the looks of it.

Once again, this is why i want Parise and Suter here. They'ref****** gladiators. High compete level and work ethic. That's why the Kings won the cup with guys like Brown leading the way. Even Penner decided to earn his $4 mil. I don't want to have to settle for a lazy ass like Semin.

"I play hockey, but I am not very good.  Can someone please tell me what it would take to sign with the Wings ? I can use a million or two."  ~ arag

 

Dan Cleary is an Xbox 360.  While good for a while, it's time for the new generation to take over.


#14 StormJH1

StormJH1

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 702 posts
  • Location:Twin Cities, MN

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:08 AM

I like both of those players, but we need to remember that this isn't July 2001. We can't just single out two guys from anywhere in the league and say "We'll take those two, thanks". Yes, Detroit has a great organizational reputation and that Original Six "mystique", but they also have a slight reputation as a once-dominant power on the decline. Ryan Suter, after years of playing against (and likely building up some distaste for the Wings) may decide he doesn't want to have to deal with being Lidstrom's replacement. This is a guy who wasn't even the most celebrated defenseman on his team, and never scored more than 8 goals in a season. It's unlikely he could ever be "good enough" for this fanbase, unless we stumbled into a Cup Final again. But given our needs (and our cap space), yes, I absolutely want him on the team.

Parise - I have similar questions about him wanting to come here. It's still possible he resigns in New Jersey (they did retain Kovalchuk when nobody thought they would). Also, I live in Minnesota, and there's been a careful "assumption" all year that he would come back home to play here. I actually don't agree with that, I think he wants to play for a winner. But there are other "winners" apart from Detroit.

Parise has a lot of "grit" for a superstar - he does have that Yzerman-esque leadership quality to him. But he also had that knee injury that will give him problems again into his mid-30's, and he doesn't really stand out (to me) as an elite scorer. The numbers are there, but I feel like we'd be the same Detroit team we've been - immensely talented with veterans, but lacking that real explosiveness that you see from the younger Philadelphia, LA, etc. teams where it seems like anyone can score at any moment.

I think if they want to come here, it will be more about that than it is about pure money. But it's dangerous to ASSUME that both guys will choose here over all other places.

#15 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

St. Michael (the Red Wing)

    Heavenly With the Puck

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,822 posts
  • Location:Mankato, MN

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:33 AM

unfortunately what they are worth and what they will get are two different amounts...


this.

imo without going into an autobiography on this...

both are getting around 7 million give or take.

Honestly I think both are worth around 5 million. :P

#16 xtrememachine1

xtrememachine1

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,427 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:41 AM

Maybe age had something to do with it, but Brad Richards is a $6.67 mil cap hit with the Rangers and he was the most sought after free agent last year. He's 5 years older than Parise, but he's also experienced no major injuries and scored way more points than him. Throw in the higher cap and the annual inflation of prices, the highest Parise should get is about $7.5 mil, although it wouldn't surprise me to see someone throw a ton more, torpedo their own team in the salary cap, just to show that they "did something".

#17 Nightfall

Nightfall

    My goal is to deny yours!

  • Gold Booster
  • 3,744 posts
  • Location:Grand Rapids

Posted 18 June 2012 - 08:44 AM

Maybe age had something to do with it, but Brad Richards is a $6.67 mil cap hit with the Rangers and he was the most sought after free agent last year. He's 5 years older than Parise, but he's also experienced no major injuries and scored way more points than him. Throw in the higher cap and the annual inflation of prices, the highest Parise should get is about $7.5 mil, although it wouldn't surprise me to see someone throw a ton more, torpedo their own team in the salary cap, just to show that they "did something".

The good news is that this isn't an auction with Parise. I get the impression that he will select a city where he can win. The chances of him going to Winnepeg or some other crap franchise is slim to zero. My gut tells me he will go to the Wings, Flyers, Devils, or maybe even the Kings for less money.
Christopher Brian Dudek
My Domain

#18 xtrememachine1

xtrememachine1

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,427 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh

Posted 18 June 2012 - 09:49 AM

The good news is that this isn't an auction with Parise. I get the impression that he will select a city where he can win. The chances of him going to Winnepeg or some other crap franchise is slim to zero. My gut tells me he will go to the Wings, Flyers, Devils, or maybe even the Kings for less money.


I hope your gut is right. If that's the scenario, he'll be a Wing. He won't go to a division rival, he won't pull a Hossa and join the team that just beat him in the Finals and the Devils are having financial problems. Leaving just us. :thumbup:

#19 rick zombo

rick zombo

    Grit

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,950 posts

Posted 18 June 2012 - 10:06 AM

The good news is that this isn't an auction with Parise. I get the impression that he will select a city where he can win. The chances of him going to Winnepeg or some other crap franchise is slim to zero. My gut tells me he will go to the Wings, Flyers, Devils, or maybe even the Kings for less money.


I think Minnesota has to be included in that list. I know it's obvious, but the "home town" angle shouldn't be overlooked. Plus, his dad played there during the North Stars days. He's 27. Maybe he envisions them winning in the next 5 years.

To be honest, if Suter signs in Detroit, then Parise is either a Red Wing, or a Wild <- looks funny.

My darkhorse Parise teams: St Louis, Carolina, Boston, San Jose.

edit
If you google "zach parise" these are the top three results:
zach parise
zach parise contract
zach parise red wings
:cool:

Edited by rick zombo, 18 June 2012 - 10:10 AM.

"In Detroit, every day is a good day to win"

#20 Johnz96

Johnz96

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,423 posts

Posted 18 June 2012 - 11:20 AM

Due to the desperation around the board to obtain Parise and Suter, really the only two high profile UFAs this year, I've seen figures all over the place on how high Holland should go. Realistically, what are they worth? When should Holland just walk away?

Ryan Suter has never finished top three (or even top five) in Norris voting. Maybe he's just underrated, but last year, for example, he finished 15th in Norris voting. The most points he's ever had in a season is just 46 - one might say he's similar in offensive capabilities to Kronwall or Wideman, both of whom are around ~$5M. He's also largely considered to be the second best defenseman on his own team (which isn't necessarily a knock on him). With that said, he's a big hitter, has a great shot, and is only 27 years old. If push comes to shove, what is he worth? Is he worth the $7M+ that is being thrown around? Is he worth more than Chara, Keith, or Weber?

Zach Parise is three seasons removed from scoring in the 40-goal/90-point range. He had 69 points last year in the regular season (his first after a huge knee injury), and just 15 points in 24 playoff games. His 31 goals are just 6 more than Hudler's 25, and 2 more than Franzen's (the LGW scapegoat) 29. Parise has a great work ethic, and is also known for his two-way game. However, one might argue (again) that he's not even the best forward on his own team, and his accomplishments to date don't rank him up with the league's elite. People have put huge price tags on his head - $7.5M-8M. Is he worth it? Crosby is rumored to be looking for $9M, Stamkos is locked up at $7.5M, Kovalchuk is locked up long term for $6.7M, etc. How high is too high? When does Ken Holland walk away, and think about pursuing Perry, Getzlaf, Iginla, etc. the following year?

What do you think?


I think they are worth a lot less than what they will probably get.
We have enough smaller, finesse forwards and enough left-handed non physical d-men.

Edited by Johnz96, 18 June 2012 - 11:23 AM.






Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users