Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Ken Holland


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#1 Red Crazy

Red Crazy

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 626 posts
  • Location:Manitoba, Canada

Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:08 PM

Will Ken Holland's legacy be judged on how and what he does this off season? He has never in his time as a GM of the Red Wings had to replace one of the best defenseman to ever play the game, to find a replacement for Brad Stuart, this all after losing Brian Rafalski a great puck moving defenseman just a year ago. When you combine his holes on defense with needing to reload the offense as well this will be a huge off season for the Wings and for Ken Holland. Gone are the pre cap days of simply buying the best team the owner can afford. I think Kenny is a great GM but this could be what he's remembered for. Thoughts?

#2 Dabura

Dabura

    Everydayer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,997 posts
  • Location:In an octopus's garden

Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:18 PM

A thought:

Nick is leaving. Would he leave if it looked like it might very well wreck this team, i.e. if Holland, in their recent talks, gave him no reason to think he's not ready to go balls-out this summer?

As for the specific topic at hand - nah, I don't think this summer will make or break or define his legacy.

Edited by Dabura, 24 June 2012 - 01:22 PM.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#3 ozone923

ozone923

    Top Prospect

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 56 posts
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:25 PM

Will Ken Holland's legacy be judged on how and what he does this off season? He has never in his time as a GM of the Red Wings had to replace one of the best defenseman to ever play the game, to find a replacement for Brad Stuart, this all after losing Brian Rafalski a great puck moving defenseman just a year ago. When you combine his holes on defense with needing to reload the offense as well this will be a huge off season for the Wings and for Ken Holland. Gone are the pre cap days of simply buying the best team the owner can afford. I think Kenny is a great GM but this could be what he's remembered for. Thoughts?


He will be remembered for two decades of awesomeness. A bad offseason this year would result in minor blemishing, a good offseason would keep him held as the league's best.
CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Damien Brunner ($1.350m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.200m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m)
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.775m)
Jay Bouwmeester ($6.680m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)

#4 55fan

55fan

    All mine 'til 2-0-1-9

  • HoF Booster
  • 12,874 posts
  • Location:Fargo, ND

Posted 24 June 2012 - 01:58 PM

Right or wrong, success is measured by lots of people in Cups.

If Holland gets one of Parise or Suter and we get a Cup, he will be hailed as a genius for getting the right one. If we don't get a Cup, many will be second guessing him and saying he got the wrong one.

If both go for insanely high prices and he just failed to overpay, some will say it was a shrewd move and others will decry him for not trying hard enough.

These are not all people, of course, but it seems like a lot of people have a "what have you done for me lately?" mentality.

Look at Rafalski. He was hailed, then scorned, then respected in retrospect.

I don't think that the moves Holland makes this summer will seal his legacy, but he has a good opportunity to add pieces we need to get another Cup or two.

If he does well, and we get at least one Cup, people will use this summer to make a case for his greatness, but I wouldn't say that when we look back it will difinitively make or break him.

EDIT: Unless he gets Parise, Suter, and trades everyone we don't like for someone a jillion times better and signs them cheap. Then it will make him the greatest, but I don't see that realistically happening. Just had to add it for completeness of thought.

EDIT 2: Blast! I miss spellcheck!

Edited by 55fan, 24 June 2012 - 02:01 PM.


#5 Shaman

Shaman

    Die hard Red Wing fan and realist.

  • Silver Booster
  • 3,840 posts
  • Location:Kalamazoo Michigan (WMU)

Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:10 PM

The honest answer is yes, this is the make or break year for his legacy. When he took over the team in 97-98 he was given an amazing team that he had to maintain, but never was faced with any real challenges as a GM. Even when Yzerman retired and Shanny moved on he still have the pieces to make them so much replaceable parts. With Lidstrom gone, and Franzen being a 4 million dollar floater, the team needs certain pieces to be able to stay competitive in a league where the byword is parity.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#6 YougotDatsyuked

YougotDatsyuked

    Top Prospect

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 86 posts

Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:17 PM

The "what have you done for me lately" quote is a slippery slope. That is the era we are in, and why wouldn't a GM go all out to make his team better? Yes Holland has been great for this organization but at the same time if he sits back and does not make major changes this year I think it does blemish his legacy at least a little bit.

#7 haroldsnepsts

haroldsnepsts

    "Classy"

  • HoF Booster Mod
  • 16,868 posts

Posted 24 June 2012 - 02:26 PM

I don't know about make it or break it, but I think this is the biggest test of his career as GM.

#8 Buppy

Buppy

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,980 posts

Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:28 PM

Well, if he lands Suter and Parise and we win the Cup, I think it will cement his legacy as a HoF GM. If he lands neither, and we miss the playoffs or exit early it will tarnish his image in the short term (unfairly), but long term he will still be remembered as one of the best.

Remember, he was also assistant GM for 3 years, and director of amatuer scouting for 7 before that. He played a significant role in building the team he "inherited". He's also made some big moves that people consider "failures" just because they didn't result in a Cup. Hossa, Hatcher, Clark/Samuelsson/Ranford, Cujo, Lang... He's also facing an uphill battle. We may need some big signing or trade, but that doesn't make doing it any easier. There's one real impact defenseman who might be available, and about 20 teams with the desire and ability to make a good offer for him. We have some assets to trade, but that doesn't mean any teams with the players we want will make those players available or be interested in what we can offer.

Fact is, if Red Wings fans judged other teams or GMs by the same standard Kenny has to live up to, they'd all be considered abject failures. We just lost the best defenseman of our generation, plus Stu, Rafi last year. Our stars are in their 30s. We haven't had any high draft picks during his tenure. We've dealt with the loss of stars and key roleplayers, like Konstantinov, Hasek, Yzerman, Hull, Fedorov, Robitaille, Shanahan, Chelios, Draper, Maltby, Osgood, Fischer, and more without needing to rebuild. And we are still talking about making moves to keep us a Cup contender rather than about rebuilding. That says alot more about Kenny than anything that might happen July 1st or afterward.

But if we don't make any big moves, and Kenny says, like last summer or the deadline, "We wanted to make some moves, but could find one that fit. But we like our team." everyone will just jump on the "we like our team" bit. As if all the best FAs offered to play here for free and every other GM offered to trade us their best players for our worst and Kenny turned them down. It's like half this board thinks the rest of the league has to get Kenny's permission before they can do anything, and the only reason we haven't done more already is because we didn't want to.

#9 amato

amato

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,620 posts

Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:32 PM

I don't know about make it or break it, but I think this is the biggest test of his career as GM.


This.


I trust him to make this team competitive though and our prospects are only getting better.. We're going to be competitive next year without a doubt and make a good cup run. No worries

Datsyukian

Dat·syu·ki·an [dat-soo-kee-uh n]

adjective

          1. When your moves are so amazing and beyond reason, the only way to describe them is "datsyukian."


#10 joshy207

joshy207

    Black Ace

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,437 posts
  • Location:Berkley, MI

Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:45 PM

I think this off-season will go very far in defining Ken Holland as a GM. It will show whether his inactivity at the last 2 trade deadlines and last summer were smart move (saving cap and roster space for a big free agent push this summer) or if he lacks the ability or desire to make necessary changes to the makeup of his club in order to stay competitive.

I've been pretty critical of Holland's moves (or more specifically, lack thereof) when it appears the Wings are stale and in need of a wakeup call. I feel he's hung on to some players for too long (Chelios, Maltby, Holmstrom, and now Bertuzzi) at the expense of critical NHL development time for some of the younger players, I think he lets prospects sit in Grand Rapids for too long--Brendan Smith should have been with the Wings for most, if not all, of last season and basically been Nick Lidstrom's shadow, playing with him in all situations (what better way to learn??), and I can't take him seriously when he says he expects his team to compete for the Stanley Cup every year, but there are no repercussions for players who woefully underperform when the team falls short (i.e., nobody "essential" gets traded away, which sends a message to all remaining players).

I can't give credit to Holland (as GM) for the '97 or '98 Cups, as he was in the process of being handed that team just as they reached the top of the league. The '98 team was on a mission after the limo accident. The '02 Cup, he'll get credit, but he had Ilitch's open bank vault and fit the right pieces into place. The '08 Cup and '09 final, that's all him. 21 straight playoff appearances is very impressive. But the last 4 Cup champs were teams that missed the playoffs in the first season after the lockout, and 3 of the 4 Conference finalists this year missed the playoffs that season. Those teams have had better chances to restock their systems with higher draft picks.

In my opinion, Holland cannot afford to miss out on the best players available, whether it's through free agency or trade. Time for change, time for improvement.

#11 Seraph

Seraph

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,142 posts
  • Location:Detroit, MI

Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:50 PM

I don't know about make it or break it, but I think this is the biggest test of his career as GM.

Agreed. This off-season is probably one where the impact of his work will be the biggest we have seen in years. His usual "we're happy with what we have" mentality won't apply because there are glaring holes and a ton of cap space to fill it up with.

Just looking at his record, he seems very careful about overspending. Some examples include Bertuzzi (after first stint) or Hossa. It'll be interesting to see if he passes on a big name because he's worried about overpaying. He has always said that his philosophy is to have a dedicated nucleus of players and this is the first time we've seen a spot open up in that core with Lidstrom leaving. That makes me think he'll be more willing to go to the bank on at least one player that he thinks will be a good long-term investment.

Formerly known as The Nephilim.

QUOTE (Amberoonie)
Babs sure hurries himself into the presser, sits down, and f*cks up a bottle of water like no one in the room has had any for days.


#12 Andy Pred 48

Andy Pred 48

    Coming soon,"the slovak line" Marek and 2 Toms!

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,862 posts
  • Location:Peterborough England

Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:20 PM

3 new guys coming in, mark my words!

Not who'd you have thought thou..............but will do a job until Kenny gets Shea next season :colgate:
"What are you guys doing?" Reggie Dunlop
"Putting on the foil coach" Jeff Hanson
"Yeah, every game, you want some coach?" Steve Hanson
"Er, no. No thanks guys." Reggie Dunlop
"Make sure they don't leave the bench!" Reggie Dunlop.

#13 gcom007

gcom007

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,064 posts
  • Location:Nashville, TN

Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:28 PM

If Holland can't make some serious stuff happen this offseason to put a good team on the ice come October, it'll likely be the start of a multi-year skid where we struggle to make the playoffs and/or exit early. If that happens after he also blatantly sat on his hands the last few offseasons likely because he didn't want to make moves for emotional reasons as opposed to hockey reasons, his legacy will be hurt, no doubt about it.

Let's be honest, Scotty Bowman had more say than Holland in putting together the '97 and '98 Cups, in '02 we had the Yankees on ice in the non-cap era and Scotty Bowman influence, and then in 2008, we still had the Scotty Bowman influence and many of the original guys that Scotty Bowman helped bring along. And I can't say that it's not interesting that we haven't done as well in the offseason at signings or during the season with trades since Bowman left the organization. Maybe he had nothing much to do with it at that point, but it's none the less intriguing to me. He goes to Chicago the following season, they sign Hossa long-term (which Holland should've and could've done) and they win the Cup in 2010. (Yes, I know the Chicago argument is a stretch...)

But in any event, Holland is clearly setting up his own legacy at this point and has been since the shadow of Scotty Bowman left for good prior to the summer of 2009 I believe. That was a terrible offseason for us, much like every one since. We've not gotten past the 2nd round since then either. We lost in the 1st round last season! The signing of Franzen long-term (especially considering the Hossa angle) is looking more and more questionable. He has to basically replace the core of our defense, no longer building around one of the greatest players in history, but around Kronwall, who's a good to great player at times no doubt, but he's no Lidstrom. Howard had a great year last year up until injuries (and likely made the skaters look a lot better than they were for much of the season) and he never fully got back to form, but if he struggles this year (you never know with goalies...) coming off that funk hanging around all summer, he's suddenly got a starting goalie issue on his hands too.

Bottom line, he's got a lot to prove this summer, and if he fails to put a competitive team on the ice, we're likely going to be stuck in a rut for awhile. Dats and Z aren't getting any younger either and our young forwards aren't goal scorers. Given the huge likelihood for struggles on D, the mild uncertainty surrounding a younger goalie who still hasn't fully proven himself and an offense that struggled to score goals when it counts most last year, Holland is going to need a miracle to come out looking clean. And if the legend is worth it's while, maybe he'll pull one out of his pocket. But at this point, it's likely that anything less than signing Suter and Parise is going to be viewed as a failure, because you need both of them to come close to making up for losing a guy like Lidstrom at both ends, and Lids only played D! And even if he secures them both, he still needs another 2/3 defensemen and a solid backup goalie with more NHL experience so Jimmy can get some breaks and stay healthy and positive.

I'm hoping for the best, but I wouldn't be shocked if this was an ugly offseason. I also wouldn't be shocked if Ken Holland wasn't the Wings GM in 1-2 years. If he blows it and we don't make the playoffs, I could see him being done. If it happens again the year after, he better be fired.

It's time for Holland to prove he can do more than be the first guy to sign superstars to long-term creative contracts that circumvent the cap. We'll know a lot more by next Monday.
-Elliot...does not panic.

#14 wings1110

wings1110

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,147 posts

Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:40 PM

if we dont get a number one Dman, and a top 3 forward then hes lost his touch. oh and I want prust. Im getting my torch ready for mid july

#15 Nightfall

Nightfall

    My goal is to deny yours!

  • Gold Booster
  • 3,739 posts
  • Location:Grand Rapids

Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:30 PM

I don't know about make it or break it, but I think this is the biggest test of his career as GM.

This right here.

Its not a make or break for him. He really has had more success than any other GM in the last 15 years.
Christopher Brian Dudek
My Domain

#16 pucktividi

pucktividi

    the usual suspect

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,330 posts
  • Location:Croatia

Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:17 PM

It's going to be a huge test for him,no doubt,but don't think he'll fail.
He isn't the aggressive GM,but neither is stupid not to act when he needs to.


You can't replace Lidstrom,that's obvious,but all this situation reminds me a bit on Schneider's departure.
Did Ken act then?Yes by signing Rafalski so I'm optimistic he'll do the same with Suter :)

#17 StormJH1

StormJH1

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 697 posts
  • Location:Twin Cities, MN

Posted 24 June 2012 - 09:49 PM

Some very insightful comments in here...

I think that Holland's "legacy" was already cemented by the '08 Cup. To me, that Cup was so essential in shaking the label that the Red Wings were the Yankees of the NHL. To replace a generation of players like Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanny, etc. without the aid of high draft picks or limitless spending proved that there was more to the Wings than just money.

I get a little annoyed when people refer to any move that doesn't result in a Cup as a failure. Like Hossa in '09. Hossa carried the team through an inconsistent regular season, then played through a significant injury in the playoffs, while Datsyuk did the same, but only scored 1 goal in 16 games (IIRC).

The fact is that Cup winning teams like PIT, CHI, and LA could NOT have been built if those teams drafted from the position the Wings have from the early 90's to the present. Holland's ability to find and replace talent against those odds may not last forever, but don't ever forget that it worked for a damn long time.

Edited by StormJH1, 24 June 2012 - 09:49 PM.


#18 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,738 posts

Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:23 PM

I think his legacy is set, the 08 cup and 09 cup finals showed, that we are more than just a big spending team able, to find gems in the later rounds. Kenny was the best GM for almost a decade and I will always respect him for that, but having said that this summer will be a big test for him and our organization going forward:

1. Team Has Gone downhill (2 round exist twice and 1 round exit)

Are big UFAs still willing to come here seeing, how we are tied between retooling and building? This offseason will answer that.

2. Can he change his philosophy?

Its nice we finally added size through the draft, but we do need immediate help come July 1, so he will have to adress that too.

I am extremely looking forward to it because some moves will give us a clear picture on that questions. Personally I think Shero is damn close.

kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#19 Konnan511

Konnan511

    #FreePulkkinen

  • HoF Booster
  • 10,295 posts
  • Location:Traverse City, Mi

Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:30 AM

No. Every GM is going to try and get Parise and Suter. It really boils down to who they want to sign for plain and simple. Everyone is going to offer them around the same deal, so like I said, it really comes down to the mindset of the player. Whether Holland gets one of these big names won't diminish his legacy one bit and he is already a HHOF GM. Multip,e cups and international success does that.
The Best Of BC
HankthaTank
- Squirrels, they hate to be thrown. / Why is the magical unicorn named Brian... Jedi - I just downloaded the "kids" book, "Go the F--k to Sleep" as narrated by Samuel L. Jackson on my kindle. I am now ready to be a daddy. / *Checks Router* No, I'm positive I didn't hit the "Wings Defense Sucks" button. Electrophile - I'm just glad the Wings were able to win despite the Curse of Brian. ACallToArms - I think Trey needs to put something about payroll tax and deferred income in his sig... Edicius - I'd rather [have] a soundbite of me saying "I like (man sausage)" rather than "I like Crosby".

#20 FlashyG

FlashyG

    1st Line All-Star

  • HoF Booster
  • 1,143 posts
  • Location:Canada

Posted 25 June 2012 - 01:03 AM

I think his legacy is set, the 08 cup and 09 cup finals showed, that we are more than just a big spending team able, to find gems in the later rounds. Kenny was the best GM for almost a decade and I will always respect him for that, but having said that this summer will be a big test for him and our organization going forward:

1. Team Has Gone downhill (2 round exist twice and 1 round exit)

Are big UFAs still willing to come here seeing, how we are tied between retooling and building? This offseason will answer that.

2. Can he change his philosophy?

Its nice we finally added size through the draft, but we do need immediate help come July 1, so he will have to adress that too.

I am extremely looking forward to it because some moves will give us a clear picture on that questions. Personally I think Shero is damn close.


Shero isn't even in the same stratosphere as Ken Holland.

That's not to say he's not a good GM, but he took over a team that had drafted in the top 5, 4 years in a row, and had an elite young core already assembled for him. His only real responsibility is to keep it together and he already lost his first ever draft pick with the team leaving Dustin Jeffrey as the only Ray Shero draft pick currently playing for the Penguins.

When he transitions the Pens from the Crosby/Malkin era into their next without missing the playoffs or falling below the 100pt threshold then maybe we can start to compare him to Holland.

Edited by FlashyG, 25 June 2012 - 01:03 AM.






Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users