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Shanahan snubbed from HoF induction

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#61 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:12 AM

This process happens every year.

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#62 13dangledangle

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:20 AM

Sundin over Shanny is really a slap in the face.


Edit: I know it's uber petty but can he snub them when they do induct him? Has anyone ever turned down the hof honor for the politics of it all?

Edited by 13dangledangle, 27 June 2012 - 07:23 AM.

....Ladies and Gentlemen Jimmy "F%$*ing" Howard.

#63 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:25 AM

Shanahan and Lemieux failed to get in on their first attempt? Interesting.

Edited by cusimano_brothers, 27 June 2012 - 07:25 AM.

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#64 StormJH1

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:02 AM

It doesn't make ANY sense to me that Shanny be behind Sundin, but the votes are ambiguous in nature so.. whatever. Shanny should make it next year.

As far as the Wings' organization number retirement and the discussion of specific players:

14: Obviously Shanahan's number is not retired, and I'm ambivalent about whether I think it should or shouldn't be. He was a backbone of the Wings team for several years, second scoring in his position behind Luc, 600+ goals and 3 cups.. hard not to make the case, but he's obviously no Lidstrom or Yzerman, they set the bar very high. I wouldn't mind either way.

91: Sergei Fedorov number not retired, nor should it be. He had a number of great years with the Wings but he had three major issues.. 1) several contract disputes, the last ended his tenure with the team on a very sour note because of the impact it had on the Wings ability to sign other UFA's given how long and drawn out it was, 2) while few would doubt when he tried he was amongst the best players in the league, he would have a tendency to just float around and put out little effort which was an enormous criticism of him in the late 90s/early 2000s, 3) probably more subjective than other two, the impression I got that he was irritated about not being captain, which played into the contract disputes and excessive floating.


First, Shanny is definitely a Hall of Famer, but the voting is messed up (Doesnt Doc Emrick have a vote?) and this was a very strong class. I assume he's in next year and this is all but forgotten.

But on the number retirement, totally disagree. I'm not sure why it's forgotten that Fedorov was an important part of the Wings becoming a dynasty before Shanny was traded here. Shanny was not a "career Red Wing" either, yet people get mad at Fedorov for leaving as opposed to signing what would have invariably been a bad contract for an aging superstar. Wings fan pretend like the '95 Final didnt happen, but Fedorov was an MVP caliber player at that time.

Also, the "floating around" garbage is more based in North American xenophobia than fact. Fedorov was an ELITE defensive player who happened to be one of the most dangerous offensive forces in the league. He even played defense on several occasions (including the Fight Night at the Joe game). Could you imagine Bure or Shanny skating backwards playing D? The guy could do it all.

I'm fine with neither 14 or 91 being retired, but you can't retire 14 w/o also considering 91 and 30.


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#65 toby91_ca

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:33 AM

Before I say what I'm going to say, I will preface it with the fact that I think Shanny is a HOFer and will get in, likely next year (although, I haven't bothered checking who he might be up against).

What I'm trying to do is get in the head of the voters and rationalize why he might not have gotten in. Facts are, if he got in this year (first time eligible no less), he would enter having "one of" the lowest ppg stat in a long time. You can consider a bunch of other little things he brings to the table, but you can say the same about many different players. I know many will mention so many points and so many PIMs at the same time, but I'm not sure how much weight the PIMs carry with the voters.

So, it may come down to him being a goal scorer. If you look at the numbers, 656 goals is a lot, by any standard and he is a lock to get in, eventually, but if you look deeper, was he really a dominant scorer? How many years did he actually finish near the top of the goal scorer race? (I'm not sure he ever did). In his two big years (50+ goals) he wasn't even the goal scoring leader on his team, let alone in the top 3 or 4 in the league.

#66 Shoreline

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 08:38 AM

First, Shanny is definitely a Hall of Famer, but the voting is messed up (Doesnt Doc Emrick have a vote?) and this was a very strong class. I assume he's in next year and this is all but forgotten.

But on the number retirement, totally disagree. I'm not sure why it's forgotten that Fedorov was an important part of the Wings becoming a dynasty before Shanny was traded here. Shanny was not a "career Red Wing" either, yet people get mad at Fedorov for leaving as opposed to signing what would have invariably been a bad contract for an aging superstar. Wings fan pretend like the '95 Final didnt happen, but Fedorov was an MVP caliber player at that time.

Also, the "floating around" garbage is more based in North American xenophobia than fact. Fedorov was an ELITE defensive player who happened to be one of the most dangerous offensive forces in the league. He even played defense on several occasions (including the Fight Night at the Joe game). Could you imagine Bure or Shanny skating backwards playing D? The guy could do it all.

I'm fine with neither 14 or 91 being retired, but you can't retire 14 w/o also considering 91 and 30.


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lol..

1) It was never "forgotten" that Fedorov was an important part of the Wings' dynasty from the 90s and early 2000s, this is simply a terrible assumption I can only guess made by someone excessively in love with Fedorov and can't stand to read him being criticised, but you one-upped terrible with..

2) .. North American xenophobia.. :lol: So criticism of Fedorov and his floating, which he was highly criticised for by the media (your memory must be shot if you forget the attention he received for this, if you even followed the team), is now xenophobia against Russians? I fully expect Godwin's law next to follow that sheer brilliance.

3) He signed a contract that was for less than offered by the Wings. The Wings offered him 5y/50m and 4y/40m, he turned both down for 5y/40m.. so "would have invariably been a bad contract for an aging superstar" is flat out made-up bulls***, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.. at all, and I doubt you even followed this mess.

You realize in your post that we're talking about criteria for retiring a Red Wings number right? Osgood and Shanny didn't have the type of disputes with the Wings organisation that Fedorov did, and in the end, the organisation decides which numbers to retire.. Fedorov pissed up the wrong rope, obviously, but I guess stating the obvious is xenophobia again.

Lastly, I never iterated Shanny was a career Wing, in fact I was distinguishing a characteristic of Osgood's career versus Shanny's. Shanny didn't leave on bad terms with the Wings, so the comparison of this to Fedorov's departure is hilarious, but given the rest of your post, hardly surprising.

Edited by Shoreline, 27 June 2012 - 08:38 AM.


#67 F.Michael

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:04 AM

Agree, but apparently it also says great over 700 games is better than less great over 1500 games. Shanahan and Bure played in the same era, with Shanahan being a dominant goal-scorer, changing his game to add defense, playing more physical, dropping the gloves (more than 600g/2000pim), and having more team success (not to mention what he did for the sport off the ice during the lockout), and Bure being a dominant offensive player in his time in the league.

I've thought Bure, and perhaps even Oates have deserved to be in for a while now. What's very odd is that after two years of what might be considered softer classes (2010, only Dino; 2011, former pass-overs Howe and Gilmour) where the two didn't get in, they wait for a very strong class to get them ahead of what the majority of people thought would be a lock in Shanahan. The voting committee has made statements in the past, I wonder with Shanny being in the position he is today, if we didn't see one with his snub?

Its not that the players inducted didn't deserve it, but in my (quite biased) opinion, none but Sakic deserved it more than Shanahan.

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#68 kook_10

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 09:13 AM

Before I say what I'm going to say, I will preface it with the fact that I think Shanny is a HOFer and will get in, likely next year (although, I haven't bothered checking who he might be up against).

What I'm trying to do is get in the head of the voters and rationalize why he might not have gotten in. Facts are, if he got in this year (first time eligible no less), he would enter having "one of" the lowest ppg stat in a long time. You can consider a bunch of other little things he brings to the table, but you can say the same about many different players. I know many will mention so many points and so many PIMs at the same time, but I'm not sure how much weight the PIMs carry with the voters.

So, it may come down to him being a goal scorer. If you look at the numbers, 656 goals is a lot, by any standard and he is a lock to get in, eventually, but if you look deeper, was he really a dominant scorer? How many years did he actually finish near the top of the goal scorer race? (I'm not sure he ever did). In his two big years (50+ goals) he wasn't even the goal scoring leader on his team, let alone in the top 3 or 4 in the league.


Maybe its the discount many people put on the Wings players for having great teams and team play. He did lead two stacked Wings teams (one full of legends) in scoring in two of their cup years though.

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#69 55fan

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:01 AM

I have to ask. John Davidson is on the selection committee. They say that hockey players have long memories. Some speculate that Dino's entrance was delayed due to ethical questionability.

Could ethical issues from his days with the Blues be responsible for the delay? I think we're all agreed that all who were selected deserved it to one degree or another. Might this have been the deciding factor in having him be the odd man out?

For what it's worth, "character" is listed as one of the requirements for election.

I realize that there is no proof that he was nominated, but I think that's a given.

Edited by 55fan, 27 June 2012 - 10:03 AM.


#70 ogreslayer

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:40 AM

I have to ask. John Davidson is on the selection committee. They say that hockey players have long memories. Some speculate that Dino's entrance was delayed due to ethical questionability.

Could ethical issues from his days with the Blues be responsible for the delay? I think we're all agreed that all who were selected deserved it to one degree or another. Might this have been the deciding factor in having him be the odd man out?

For what it's worth, "character" is listed as one of the requirements for election.

I realize that there is no proof that he was nominated, but I think that's a given.

I wouldn't be surprised if that, plus how he basically forced his way into a trade when he was in Hartford, entered its way into the conversation. Plus there's speculation that he never got along all that well with Scotty (who did really?) who is on the committee. Ultimately though, we'll never know the true reasons.

#71 Ram

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:41 AM

Shanny is a lock for the Hall of Fame, and to be honest, don't think it is a major deal he didn't get in in his first year of eligibility. Sure he probably should have got in before Mats, but does that taint his hockey legacy or his longstanding career in the NHL? I really don't think so. So he waits one more year. No big.

As far as him being in the rafters, don't think it will happen, simply because it is an honor bestowed on few and far between. He meant a lot to the organization, but will never hold a candle to what Steve and Nick did, IMO.

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#72 Number19

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 10:45 AM

Man it would've been nice to see Bure join the russian 5.

#73 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 11:37 AM

lol..

1) It was never "forgotten" that Fedorov was an important part of the Wings' dynasty from the 90s and early 2000s, this is simply a terrible assumption I can only guess made by someone excessively in love with Fedorov and can't stand to read him being criticised, but you one-upped terrible with..

2) .. North American xenophobia.. :lol: So criticism of Fedorov and his floating, which he was highly criticised for by the media (your memory must be shot if you forget the attention he received for this, if you even followed the team), is now xenophobia against Russians? I fully expect Godwin's law next to follow that sheer brilliance.

3) He signed a contract that was for less than offered by the Wings. The Wings offered him 5y/50m and 4y/40m, he turned both down for 5y/40m.. so "would have invariably been a bad contract for an aging superstar" is flat out made-up bulls***, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.. at all, and I doubt you even followed this mess.

You realize in your post that we're talking about criteria for retiring a Red Wings number right? Osgood and Shanny didn't have the type of disputes with the Wings organisation that Fedorov did, and in the end, the organisation decides which numbers to retire.. Fedorov pissed up the wrong rope, obviously, but I guess stating the obvious is xenophobia again.

Lastly, I never iterated Shanny was a career Wing, in fact I was distinguishing a characteristic of Osgood's career versus Shanny's. Shanny didn't leave on bad terms with the Wings, so the comparison of this to Fedorov's departure is hilarious, but given the rest of your post, hardly surprising.

Discuss the content of the post and not the person, please.

Also, this thread is about Shanny and the HHoF. I understand how some discussion of former players is relevant to talk of HHoF and retiring player's numbers, but if we start re-hashing the mess that was Fedorov's departure, it's gonna take this thread way off topic.

(That last part was directed at everyone in the thread. I was about to jump into the Fedorov discussion as well).

#74 Konnan511

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 01:22 PM

Shanny will get in, but this wasn't his year. It's the hockey hall of fame, not the NHL hall of fame. Bure and Sundin had marvelous international success and damn good NHL careers. I had those four getting in over Shanny (who will be a HHOF next year) so its not really much of a snub.

As for numbers getting retired, Feds has a much better chance of getting his number retired than Shanny. Shanny was never THE man here while Sergei was. Plus, Sergei wouldn't be the first player to leave the Wings on bad terms and get his number retired.
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