62 replies to this topic

[Wing Across The Pond]

Dats busts his ass every night

Hank busts his ass every night

Flip busts his ass every night

Helm busts his ass every second of every shift of every night.

They might not always score, they might not always be the best player, they might not always win - but they will always give their all. They might be playing injured, lacking confidence, not getting the bounces - but they will still try.

Throw Dan Cleary in there as well. Dude plays on busted knees but seemingly doesn't want to cause a fuss so keeps playing through the pain every night and doesn't stop.

[Seraph]

I don't have a problem with his contract as much. I think what annoys people is that we've all seen how much potential he has and he doesn't always fulfill it. I mean if I had the dude's size, I'd be running around like a wrecking ball out there. Instead we haven't seen much growth and his production has remained streaky.

[JasonNewEra]

what the f***....

Hell yeah you wouldn't get rid of Zetterberg. I don't care how big that contract is. Guy took us on his back right to the 08 cup.

...and since then? Yeah. But still Franzen hasn't done anything and that is who this thread is about.

[haroldsnepsts]

IMHO, Franzen "floats" a lot less than people here say who "watch the games". He is not paid for speed. He is paid to be a power forward.

If he's paid to be a power forward, that only bolsters the argument that he's not working hard enough.

Lucic is a power forward. Simmonds is developing into a power forward. Franzen is big and can score, but he's not nearly physical enough to be called a power forward.

[Johnz96]

tl;dr below the stat-headedness.

The two biggest knocks on Johan Franzen are his streakiness and perceived laziness. Franzen also currently has the fourth highest salary on the team. While the Red Wings are well below the cap floor - spending money isn't a problem - what, exactly is Franzen's value to the team and what should be done with him?

Franzen lead the team with 29 goals, beating fellow whipping-boy Jiri Hudler by 4. His 56 points were good enough for fourth on the team. Franzen essentially paced himself to score a goal once every third game and had .683 ppg. Using this, it is possible to gauge how streaky Johan really is.

I am going to break Franzen's season into 2 week segments, examining goals, points, and pace for both,

Oct 7-Oct 21
GP G A P GPG PPG
5 4 3 7 65.6 114.8
Oct 22-Nov 6
GP G A P GPG PPG
7 1 2 3 34.1 68.3 All of Franzen's points this week came from one game on November 5th, the last of the week.
Nov 7-Nov 21
GP G A P GPG PPG
7 5 5 10 43.1 86.2
Nov 22-Dec 6
GP G A P GPG PPG
7 3 3 6 40.9 81.9
Dec 7-Dec 21
GP G A P GPG PPG
7 1 3 4 34.7 74.4
Dec 22-Jan 5
GP G A P GPG PPG
6 2 1 3 33.6 69.4
Jan 6-Jan 20
GP G A P GPG PPG
8 2 5 7 31.3 69.6
Jan 21-Feb 4
GP G A P GPG PPG
6 1 1 2 29.3 65.0
Feb 5-Feb 19
GP G A P GPG PPG
7 4 1 5 32.4 66.3
Feb 20-Mar 5
GP G A P GPG PPG
6 1 2 3 29.9 62.1
Mar 6-Mar 20
GP G A P GPG PPG
5 2 1 3 29.9 61.2 This is the beginning of the 5 games that Mule missed.
Mar 21-Apr 3
GP G A P GPG PPG
3 0 0 0 28.8 58.7
Apr 4-Apr 7
GP G A P GPG PPG
3 3 0 3 30.8 59.6

So is Franzen statistically streaky? Oh yes. If you expect one goal every third game, you would expect to see about 2 goals every two weeks, give or take. Franzen missed that mark (counting 1-3 goals per week) more than 1/3 of the time. If you count scoring one goal in two weeks as poor, as I would, that count rises to more than 1/2 the time.

Also telling is the changing rate at which Franzen scored. There was no way Mule would continue the pace he set over the first five games, but discounting that, Franzen's PPG pace varied by around 2.7 per two weeks. That indicates a good deal of instability.

tl;dr: Mule is wildly inconsistent. He's only costing about $4M in cap space, but I don't know if I'm comfortable with Franzen being part of the solution moving forward.

Thoughts on Johan?

You can do that for just about anybody and find them inconsistent.

[Carman]

You can do that for just about anybody and find them inconsistent.

Yeah but other players provide a two way game.

Filpulla goes into a scoring slump? You can at least throw him out their on the PK and he can be reliable defensively. Same with Cleary.

Not even going to bring up Zetter/Dats

Fact is when Franzen isn't producing he's not providing anything for this team, he is a terrible forecheck/backchecker, he doesn't hit(Drew Miller has more), he just isn't consistent winning battles. Now sure this is all my opinion on watching games, but it's what I see.

Babcock sums it up well,

The roller-coaster ride that has been the production end of Johan Franzen’s game is beginning to grate on Detroit Red Wings coach Mike Babcock, who believes it’s time that the veteran right-winger became a more consistent presence on the scoresheet.
“He’s like this,” Babcock said of Franzen, who has recorded 6-7-13 totals in his last eight games. “When he feels it, it goes in. To me, he should be one of the best power forwards in the league because of his hands, because of his skating, and he knows how to play. The challenge for him every night is to skate and be physical. If he skates and is physical, the rest looks after itself.
“He’s got one of the best shots in the league, and can wire it like nobody. Mule’s one of those guys that has to decide if he’s going to be a great player in the league, or a good player in the league for a long, long time. If he wants to be a great player, then you have to call on yourself every single night. The great players dig in every night.”

People that complain about Franzen's consistency are not crazy.

[2probert4]

Need a break down to how bad Zetterberg was to start the season. He was god-awful bad. Also Lidstrom was pretty bad at the end of the season/playoffs.

If Franzen was consistent like very few NHL players are (like Crosby), would Franzen's cap hit be under $4 million? I don't think so.

In essence, Franzen is a bargain right now and will be extremely difficult to replace his offense for under $4 million per year. I would only consider trading Franzen if it's for a younger, tougher, more proven offensive power forward (NOT CHRIS STEWART OR PENNER TYPE GUY)

Lidstrom had a reason for his level of play, its called he took a puck off the inside of the foot...

[rrasco]

Why do I keep hearing the terms 'Franzen' and 'Not Producing' used in the same sentence? I'm pretty sure he led the team in GOALS with 29. He's doing what he is paid to do. This thread sure does have an appopriate title. Be thankful we're getting what we're getting out of him for what we're putting in him. The grass always is greener on the other side eh?

[Carman]

Why do I keep hearing the terms 'Franzen' and 'Not Producing' used in the same sentence? I'm pretty sure he led the team in GOALS with 29. He's doing what he is paid to do. This thread sure does have an appopriate title. Be thankful we're getting what we're getting out of him for what we're putting in him. The grass always is greener on the other side eh?

Most of us are waiting for him to play hard 100% of the time.

He could be so much better than what he is, and it's not a skill issue, it's a mental issue and it's something that is very frusterating for fans.

[Rivalred]

It does seem that the 3rd grader next door's art project that is made out of Popsicle sticks and elmers glue is sturdier than Johan.

[Nightfall]

If he's paid to be a power forward, that only bolsters the argument that he's not working hard enough.

Lucic is a power forward. Simmonds is developing into a power forward. Franzen is big and can score, but he's not nearly physical enough to be called a power forward.

Lucic and Franzen both have 4 million dollar cap hits. Lucic is $100,000 more, but I digress.....

Lucic: 26 goals and 35 assists in 81 games
Franzen: 29 goals and 27 assists in 77 games

Interesting how they have the same numbers from production, and get paid the same. Would I rather have Lucic? I have a feeling the drones on this forum would ***** about him as well.

As for Simmonds, he is paid $3.5 million for lower numbers, but he has a high upswing if things continue to go his way.

Point is that you haven't shown me a "power forward" that is doing better than Franzen for the same cap hit.

[Carman]

Lucic and Franzen both have 4 million dollar cap hits. Lucic is $100,000 more, but I digress.....

Lucic: 26 goals and 35 assists in 81 games
Franzen: 29 goals and 27 assists in 77 games

Interesting how they have the same numbers from production, and get paid the same. Would I rather have Lucic? I have a feeling the drones on this forum would ***** about him as well.

As for Simmonds, he is paid $3.5 million for lower numbers, but he has a high upswing if things continue to go his way.

Point is that you haven't shown me a "power forward" that is doing better than Franzen for the same cap hit.

Hockey isn't just about scoring goals, I'm sure Howard would love not having the puck in his zone 70% of the game.
Franzen is just not consistently winning battles along the boards, using his body, and backchecking. I don't see why people are trying to defend Frazen, it's clear as day that his effort level is not always there.

[Dabura]

In the top-6:

Parise - Datsyuk - Franzen/Doan
Filppula - Zetterberg - Doan/Franzen

OR

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Franzen/Doan
Parise - Filppula - Doan/Franzen

On the 3rd line:

Parise - Datsyuk - Bertuzzi
Filppula - Zetterberg - Doan
Franzen - Helm - Cleary

In a package for Dan Girardi:

Franzen + blahblahblah FOR Girardi

[haroldsnepsts]

Lucic and Franzen both have 4 million dollar cap hits. Lucic is $100,000 more, but I digress.....

Lucic: 26 goals and 35 assists in 81 games
Franzen: 29 goals and 27 assists in 77 games

Interesting how they have the same numbers from production, and get paid the same. Would I rather have Lucic? I have a feeling the drones on this forum would ***** about him as well.

As for Simmonds, he is paid $3.5 million for lower numbers, but he has a high upswing if things continue to go his way.

Point is that you haven't shown me a "power forward" that is doing better than Franzen for the same cap hit.

The exact point was that they put up similar production to Franzen and are two actual power forwards.

Both Lucic and Simmonds play physical, fight, and score. Franzen floats and scores. He is in no way a power forward.

And Simmonds is 23 years old and Lucic is 24 years old, so they're likely not at their full potential. Remind me how was Mule at 23?

Hockey isn't just about scoring goals, I'm sure Howard would love not having the puck in his zone 70% of the game.
Franzen is just not consistently winning battles along the boards, using his body, and backchecking. I don't see why people are trying to defend Frazen, it's clear as day that his effort level is not always there.

Exactly.

I don't think anyone is saying we don't need the goal scoring he does provide. It's the lack of effort he displays some nights.

The babcock quote earlier in the thread sums it up well.

[GoWings1905]

Lucic and Franzen both have 4 million dollar cap hits. Lucic is $100,000 more, but I digress.....

Lucic: 26 goals and 35 assists in 81 games
Franzen: 29 goals and 27 assists in 77 games

Interesting how they have the same numbers from production, and get paid the same. Would I rather have Lucic? I have a feeling the drones on this forum would ***** about him as well.

As for Simmonds, he is paid $3.5 million for lower numbers, but he has a high upswing if things continue to go his way.

Point is that you haven't shown me a "power forward" that is doing better than Franzen for the same cap hit.

This has done nothing to prove Franzen is a power forward. We all know he can score goals -- that isn't the debate here. It's the manner in which Franzen scores those goals and what he isn't willing to do to establish himself as a real power forward. Stats aren't going to prove the argument. All you need to do is watch Franzen's effort on the ice.

[F.Michael]

If he's paid to be a power forward, that only bolsters the argument that he's not working hard enough.

Lucic is a power forward. Simmonds is developing into a power forward. Franzen is big and can score, but he's not nearly physical enough to be called a power forward.

Calling Franzen a power forward is an insult to true power forwards.

[Bring Back The Bruise Bros]

Calling Franzen a power forward is an insult to true power forwards.

If Franzen is comparable to Lucic, then Hudler is comparable to Pat Verbeek.

[Nightfall]

This has done nothing to prove Franzen is a power forward. We all know he can score goals -- that isn't the debate here. It's the manner in which Franzen scores those goals and what he isn't willing to do to establish himself as a real power forward. Stats aren't going to prove the argument. All you need to do is watch Franzen's effort on the ice.

So if Franzen fought, drove to the net, and scored the same amount of goals, there would be no issue?

[GoWings1905]

So if Franzen fought, drove to the net, and scored the same amount of goals, there would be no issue?

Those things would ultimately lead to more goals. Franzen isn't going to fight ever, nor should he. There are other ways to be physical, including using your size to forecheck hard and wear on an opponents defense. Franzen doesn't drive the net enough to complement his great shot.

The point is if Franzen did more of the things most people here feel he is capable of on a consistent basis, there is potential for him to become a more well-rounded player. He scored 29 goals, but he also plays with Pavel Datsyuk. That helps cover up even more for Franzen's lackadaisical efforts most nights.

[Rivalred]

So basically if we got another top forward and moved people around, not only will Johan score more goals, the others will also?

Edited by Rivalred, 01 July 2012 - 06:53 AM.