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Suter Watch: Decision today, down to Wings/Wild

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#381 Shaman

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:07 AM

Doan's 21 goals alone may not be worth 4.5m but his combined leadership, knowledge of the game, work ethic, and durability sure make up quite a bit of that.

We all understand that Semin, Doan, Nash, etc are not on par with Parise. But compared to some of the craptastic performances and efforts put out by some of our forwards last season....anyone mentioned would be an improvement.

To a team like Phx that lack leadership and knowledge of the game hes worth that much, but on a veteran team like the Wings anything over 4 million would be an overpayment. They a legit sniper more than they need an aging veteran these days since Floater Franzen has taken up a lifetime roost in JLA.
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#382 joesuffP

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:08 AM

There's no actual logic in your statements.

First intangibles are nice, but at the end of the day the team that wins has more goals than the team that loses. Therefore you want guys who can score. As for Doan's back/fore checking, its nice, but as he would be playing wing they are not required, so while nice, a winger's #1 attribute is their ability to score and Hudler>Doan>>>>Sameulsson. And as for your logic, look at the mathematical trend of Doan's production over the last 5 seasons. As for the 33% less argument, I don't buy it, if he plays in the top 6. It doesn't matter what hes paid, a top 6 winger on any good team needs to produce at a certain level, and he has never produced as much as Hudler. With the cap increase the difference between Hudlers and Sammy's contract is just a shade over 1% of the overall salary cap (more logic, because a 33% difference is misleading).

PS Doan has only scored 30 or more goals twice, He averages 21 goals a season, which is not worth 4.5 million.


Ya Hudler was a game changer and won us games every time he scored a goal. You look dumb comparing point totals when any idiot can tell you doan is by far a more valuable player than Hudler so just stop

#383 Esquire

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:08 AM

I get that. There are plenty of attractive options out there for these two players, but if they want to be on a good team that can contend for a Cup now and play together, the Wings are the best bet. We're still one of the elite teams in this league and we have tons of cap space to not only sign them, but add even more. Logically, the Wings make the most sense if they are in fact trying to play together and be on a winning team. The Pens would be a great option, but signing both doesn't seem likely without having to take less money and even if they did that, they would be right against the cap. The Wild would be a feel good come home story, but its the Wild. We've made it to the Finals as many times as the Wild have made it to the playoffs (3). Would you feel comfortable signing a life time deal with a franchise that has that kind of track record? Ask Rick Nash how he feels about it now.

While obviously we WANT Parise and Suter here and we'd love to have them here for our own personal reasons, it also makes logical sense to play in Detroit as well.


- There's no such thing as elite teams any more.
- The Pens may not have as much remaining cap, but they don't need to fill as many holes as the Wings.
- Comparing playoff appearances between the two teams is a bit unrealistic. Also, the length of time the Wings have stayed in the playoffs each year has declined since they won the Cup.
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#384 cupcrazy

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:10 AM

I get that. There are plenty of attractive options out there for these two players, but if they want to be on a good team that can contend for a Cup now and play together, the Wings are the best bet. We're still one of the elite teams in this league and we have tons of cap space to not only sign them, but add even more. Logically, the Wings make the most sense if they are in fact trying to play together and be on a winning team. The Pens would be a great option, but signing both doesn't seem likely without having to take less money and even if they did that, they would be right against the cap. The Wild would be a feel good come home story, but its the Wild. We've made it to the Finals as many times as the Wild have made it to the playoffs (3). Would you feel comfortable signing a life time deal with a franchise that has that kind of track record? Ask Rick Nash how he feels about it now.

While obviously we WANT Parise and Suter here and we'd love to have them here for our own personal reasons, it also makes logical sense to play in Detroit as well.


While I agree with all your points, it could be that is why they don't want to come here. It's no secert in Detroit you either win the Stanley Cup or it's a fail season, PEROID. These guys would be under teremendous pressure to take this team to it's 12th Stanley Cup starting day one. If they signed with the Wild they would have a few years before the pressure to go all the way started to mount.

I read a tweet yesterday (can't remember who from) about Suter wanting to sign with a quite market like Detroit with no scrutiny from fans. I say to anyone that believes that, ask Chris Osgood about fan scrutiny in Detroit.

There WILL be a lot of pressure on these guys in hockeytown, maybe that affects there decision, maybe it doesn't. While I do believe the Red Wings are the premier franchise in the NHL, I also believe players are nervous about signing here because they know what will be expected of them.
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#385 Dabura

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:11 AM

Doan would be infinitely more valuable to us than Hudler was.

If Suter and Parise sign with the Wild, they are living, breathing cheese.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#386 Shaman

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:12 AM

Ya Hudler was a game changer and won us games every time he scored a goal. You look dumb comparing point totals when any idiot can tell you doan is by far a more valuable player than Hudler so just stop

Nice strawman that was not my argument and you look stupid for strawmanning me. I never said that Hulder won us every game, I am saying that what the team NEEDS from their top 6 forwards is a GOAL scorer. Who in the top 6 is the sniper? And Doan isn't a true goal scorer by anyone's definition. Also Detroit needs to stop with stop-gap players like Doan who will only be around a season or two, because it causes drama every offseason when it comes time to replace them. What I want is for them to either trade for or sign a top 6 goal scoring winger who is under 30 for and make sure to keep him for 5 to 8 years.

Edited by Shaman464, 04 July 2012 - 09:14 AM.

Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#387 joesuffP

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:13 AM

To a team like Phx that lack leadership and knowledge of the game hes worth that much, but on a veteran team like the Wings anything over 4 million would be an overpayment. They a legit sniper more than they need an aging veteran these days since Floater Franzen has taken up a lifetime roost in JLA.


The wings have tons of cap room... What's wrong with having a forward that hits everything and plays hard with some intangibles? That's why Hudler was useless 85 percent of the time... He quietly got his points without appearing to be doing anything of use on the ice. Doan does a lot of good things while he's on the ice even when he's not scoring. With your logic there's no reason to have helm on this team either

#388 b.shanafan14

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:13 AM

Doan is worlds better than Hudler. Period.

Hudler benefited from his linemates perhaps more than anyone. He was slow, small, useless in the corners, and defensively ineffective. Good personality from all accounts, well-liked in the locker room, but nowhere near the character, down-in-the-trenches leader Doan is. If you're going to compare production, that's fine, but Doan does more to make his own goals than Hudler has or ever will. Doan is a huge physical prescence along the boards, and drives the net.

Doan gives you Zetterberg determination, Helm forechecking and tenacity, and Hudler's production, with a much better skillset.

#389 Shaman

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:17 AM

The wings have tons of cap room... What's wrong with having a forward that hits everything and plays hard with some intangibles? That's why Hudler was useless 85 percent of the time... He quietly got his points without appearing to be doing anything of use on the ice. Doan does a lot of good things while he's on the ice even when he's not scoring. With your logic there's no reason to have helm on this team either

Because you need a guy who can score 30 to 40 goals in your top 6? Doan is a pass first player, if you ever watched him. The Wings top 6 is ALL pass first guys save for Franzen who floats and hasn't been near 30 goals in next to forever. I would be all for Doan if the Wings had a legit goal scorer, but because they don't I don't feel a pass first player like Doan would be the right piece.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#390 xtrememachine1

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:17 AM

- There's no such thing as elite teams any more.

I would disagree with that. There are teams that are consistently near the top and a threat to win a championship every year. Vancouver, Boston, Washington, Pittsburgh, Chicago, San Jose and Detroit to name a few.

- The Pens may not have as much remaining cap, but they don't need to fill as many holes as the Wings.

The Pens entire defense was exposed badly this past postseason. Now they've lost Staal, their best defensive forward and Michalek, one of the few defensive defensemen they had. They have plenty of holes and plenty of free agents next offseason.

- Comparing playoff appearances between the two teams is a bit unrealistic. Also, the length of time the Wings have stayed in the playoffs each year has declined since they won the Cup.

That seems to be the trend in recent years, win the Cup, get knocked out in the first round or miss the playoffs the next year, so its not just the Wings. Also, the Wings have been in this position before. After back to back Cup appearances, they got knocked out in the 2nd round by the same team two years in a row and then got knocked out in the first round. It didn't deter Hull and Robitaille signing with Detroit then. Anyways, my point there was, if I'm signing a long term contract somewhere, I'd want to go somewhere that has a long history of success.

#391 Hairy Lime

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:18 AM

So what's the deal? Are we expecting to hear anything from Parise and Suter today, or can we just enjoy our 4th of July. Has either player said anything? I thought I heard that Suter would not announce 'till Friday?? What about Parise?

#392 joesuffP

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:18 AM

While I agree with all your points, it could be that is why they don't want to come here. It's no secert in Detroit you either win the Stanley Cup or it's a fail season, PEROID. These guys would be under teremendous pressure to take this team to it's 12th Stanley Cup starting day one. If they signed with the Wild they would have a few years before the pressure to go all the way started to mount.

I read a tweet yesterday (can't remember who from) about Suter wanting to sign with a quite market like Detroit with no scrutiny from fans. I say to anyone that believes that, ask Chris Osgood about fan scrutiny in Detroit.

There WILL be a lot of pressure on these guys in hockeytown, maybe that affects there decision, maybe it doesn't. While I do believe the Red Wings are the premier franchise in the NHL, I also believe players are nervous about signing here because they know what will be expected of them.


Signing with the Wild isn't a hockey decision or even a good career move. It's for personal reasons an for fun. These two aren't made of the same stuff as an yzerman or lidstrom. They were professional hockey players in everything they did

#393 GoWings1905

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:18 AM

If both are deciding today at/near the same time, I don't think that looks too promising. Unfortunately, that screams to me both are going to the Wild like reports suggest.

I wasn't going to be too bummed if the Red Wings didn't land Parise, but not getting Suter is going to sting a lot. Suter was an absolute necessity IMO. There were some nice fallback options still available at forward without getting Parise. There is nothing on defense close to Suter.

If they do both go together, I will be interested to see the terms of the deal.
 
 
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#394 Dabura

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:21 AM

Nice strawman that was not my argument and you look stupid for strawmanning me. I never said that Hulder won us every game, I am saying that what the team NEEDS from their top 6 forwards is a GOAL scorer. Who in the top 6 is the sniper? And Doan isn't a true goal scorer by anyone's definition. Also Detroit needs to stop with stop-gap players like Doan who will only be around a season or two, because it causes drama every offseason when it comes time to replace them. What I want is for them to either trade for or sign a top 6 goal scoring winger who is under 30 for and make sure to keep him for 5 to 8 years.


We need more than pure goal-scoring ability. Moreover, goals aren't all the result of pure skill. Case in point: our top-6 has a lot of talent, and more than a little acumen in the goal-scoring department. However, it (i.e. both lines) have a very hard time cracking the box when the opposing D throws up the fence and forces us to the perimeter. In this case, pure goal-scoring ability (as in, say, a sniper) might be of secondary importance to physical presence, tenacity, size, grit.

I get what you're saying, and I'm not trying to say you're flat-out wrong. But it - especially in our case - is about more than just pure goal-scoring ability.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#395 Shaman

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:26 AM

We need more than pure goal-scoring ability. Moreover, goals aren't all the result of pure skill. Case in point: our top-6 has a lot of talent, and more than a little acumen in the goal-scoring department. However, it (i.e. both lines) have a very hard time cracking the box when the opposing D throws up the fence and forces us to the perimeter. In this case, pure goal-scoring ability (as in, say, a sniper) might be of secondary importance to physical presence, tenacity, size, grit.

I get what you're saying, and I'm not trying to say you're flat-out wrong. But it - especially in our case - is about more than just pure goal-scoring ability.

Except the best goal scorers in the game right now aren't huge girtty guys. Players like Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, while they have abit of an edge have a lot more skill than physical presence, tenacity, etc. Even a player like Semin who has 40 goal talent would be worth a shot because he makes the rest of the top 6 more dangerous, it takes pressure off of Zetterberg and Dats because the other team will have to focus on Semin and not just Z and D. The reason why Zetterberg and Datsyuk have been less productive in the playoffs is because other teams have figured out if they focus on them the rest of the team will be shut down. So while I do think size and grit are nice, I'd rather have Semin in the top 6 and find a gritty #6-7 D-man.
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#396 Dabura

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:27 AM

And let's be realistic: 20 goals on the 'yotes =/= 20 goals on the Wings. I'd expect Doan to crack 30 if given a whole season with Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Of course, again, it's about more than goals. What Doan would give us, putting point totals aside for a moment, is a physical, tenacious presence - a dimension that our top-6 is sorely lacking. Our scoring lines were insipid against the Preds.

Don't Toews me, bro!


#397 ogreslayer

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:27 AM

If both are deciding today at/near the same time, I don't think that looks too promising. Unfortunately, that screams to me both are going to the Wild like reports suggest.

I wasn't going to be too bummed if the Red Wings didn't land Parise, but not getting Suter is going to sting a lot. Suter was an absolute necessity IMO. There were some nice fallback options still available at forward without getting Parise. There is nothing on defense close to Suter.

If they do both go together, I will be interested to see the terms of the deal.

And if both do sign with the Wild, to add insult to injury, the NHL's realignment plan once it's done will probably put them in the same division as the Wings. If that happens, wind up Helm, Tootoo, Abby, Smith, & Kronner and set them loose on those two every time we face them. I'm usually a "glass half empty" guy but it's starting to feel like the only thing left in the glass with these two is backwash.

Edited by ogreslayer, 04 July 2012 - 09:27 AM.


#398 HelmFan

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:28 AM

I can't blame them for wanting to live and work close to home.

If we can't get them, then I'd rather they go to Minny than to Pittsburgh or Chicago.

Also, if we miss out on Suter,we can make the same pitch for Weber next year. We just might have a tough go of it this year, though.

#399 Shaman

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:30 AM

Reports on twitter are starting to all come together that Suter and Parise are going to the Wild. So who should the Wings pick first overall?
Feuer und Wasser kommt nicht zusammen
Kann man nicht binden sind nicht verwandt
In Funken versunken steh ich in Flammen
und bin im Wasser verbrannt
Im Wasser verbrannt

#400 Dabura

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:30 AM

Except the best goal scorers in the game right now aren't huge girtty guys. Players like Crosby, Malkin, Stamkos, while they have abit of an edge have a lot more skill than physical presence, tenacity, etc. Even a player like Semin who has 40 goal talent would be worth a shot because he makes the rest of the top 6 more dangerous, it takes pressure off of Zetterberg and Dats because the other team will have to focus on Semin and not just Z and D. The reason why Zetterberg and Datsyuk have been less productive in the playoffs is because other teams have figured out if they focus on them the rest of the team will be shut down. So while I do think size and grit are nice, I'd rather have Semin in the top 6 and find a gritty #6-7 D-man.


We're talking about the Wings, more specifically our top-6. We have goal-scoring power; what we're really lacking, I think, is the other things that make a truly formidable top-6 truly formidable. Do I think we could use a sniper? Yes. But let's not kid ourselves - the reason the Wings couldn't score against the Preds goes way beyond the opp. D pressuring Datsyuk and Zetterberg.

Don't Toews me, bro!






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