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Has the Detroit diamond lost it's shine?


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#21 chrisdetroit

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:45 PM

I can't believe that people are trying to blame the Wings because their offer was 0.5M less than Minny's. They went to Minny to play for their hometown team. It had nothing to do with the 0.5M or the fact the the Wings lost in the first round.

To try and spin this into being Kenny's fault is ridiculous.
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#22 Dominator2005

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:47 PM

Has it occured to you that maybe Ilitch wasn't ok with that amount of money? Holland doesn't get to unilaterally make these decisions. 90M was them upping their offer, which Ilitch might not have been crazy about to begin with. I know that we just assume that Ilitch's wealth is unlimited, but maybe things aren't going quite as well these days? Just a thought.

Man people are fast to throw Kenny under the bus.



Well original offer was $80M and then someone (I think it was Ilitch) had increased to $90M.

Kenny wasn't prepared to live without Lidstrom. What will be next step... he will bring Lilja back and overpay for Carle...

2 years ago he could have Bogosian for Hudler and Ericsson but he denied that trade because he wants to have veterans... Why Sammy is back? Why we can't give a chance to Nyquist and Brunner on the 2nd line??? I don't care if we are going to win 60 games or 45 games. Time has changed, YOU NEED TO TRUST to your young players. We are looking at Doan as a savior (he's 35) but why Kenny opted for Emmerton instead of a Milan Lučić?! He was supposed to make this team bigger and tougher... "tough addition" is Jordan Tootoo - WTF!!!!!
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#23 FireCaptain

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:48 PM

In reality, my post had little to do with the actual Suter and Parise and more with the concept of them. As a free agent, what would attract people to Detroit? The glamour seems to be gone. However, I should have realized that people are too butt-hurt over those two choosing the Wild to be able to think rationally and have an intellectual discussion about such an abstract concept.

You are talking about 2 players that took well over what they are worth. 98mil for 13 yrs??? If thats what it took would you of really wanted us to do that and handcuff our team for the future??


$90M for 12 years and $98M for 13 years are ALMOST AN IDENTICAL CAP HIT. $7.5M/yr. vs. $7.538M/yr. Would you still consider it a handcuff if Suter were a Wing for a mere $38,000/yr less?

They also made the Finals 3 yrs ago and were 1 game away from another Cup..Sorry but just because 2 over rated and now over paid players decided to join a crappy team In Minni does not mean the Red Wings are all of a sudden a 2nd tier franchise.

Never did I say anything about being a second tier franchise. Just because the competition has increased their level through 'parity' does not mean that the Wings have necessarily lowered theirs. However, if there are multiple teams than can be considered legitimate playoff contenders, simply going to Detroit "for a shot at winning" doesn't have the same draw.

Are you a fan of the Red Wings or are you only a fan of winning? Every franchise faces challenges. Half the fun is seeing how those challenges are overcome.

Are we as prepared for a cup run as we were five years ago? Are we the number one cup contender? No. Things change, players come and go.


Nice personal attack. When you can't, or won't, discuss an issue, feel free to attack another person's fan-ness. My point in the original post was to see what other fans think Detroit can do to possibly change the perception (if there is one) about committing to the Wings. A city in disarray and a team that continually derided as too old and past their prime.

If I were given the choice between two major cities and nearly identical contracts, I'd look at it in a 'numbers' sense as well..
You'll pay 3% more in personal income taxes in Minnesota (Suddenly, your extra $8Mil is $2.94Mil less).
Also, the cost of living is 28% higher in Minneapolis - http://www.bestplace...&city2=52743000

Given factors like that, the dollars make more sense for Detroit.

I realize that Suter/Parise wanted to play together and that is a mitigating factor that you can't place a value on. I just want to discuss the changing dynamics behind the concept.
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#24 Zetts

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:48 PM

It doesnt matter why. Facts are: 1) we dont have either Lidstrom, Shultz, parise or suter, and 2) we have bertuzzi, sammuelson, gustavson, and tootoo. That is crappy general management by definition.

1. Lidstrom retiring is out of Holland's control. It's ridiculous to blame him for that.
2. Schultz not coming her was out of Holland's control (he wanted to play in Canada).
3. Again, you're blaming Holland for not offering more of somebody else's money. He did what he could, I'm sure. But if, hypothetically, Ilitch said he wouldn't go higher with the offer, that's not Kenny's fault. In fact, I believe it was Ilitch himself who was the last one to visit Suter.
4. Offensively, we're actually ok. So the signings of Bertuzzi and Samuelsson aren't an issue, nor have they impacted our ability to get anybody that might be better. Also, every player won't be a superstar. They're not actually bad players.
5. Gustavsson was a good improvement as a backup. I don't know what your complaint is there.

Maybe Holland could have made better moves or been more aggressive in some ways. But your critisisms of him are way overboard.

#25 Dominator2005

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:51 PM

I can't say how much blame, if any, Holland deserves in the case of Parise and Suter, but I do think he has let this team age badly. I always seem like I'm the only one who doesn't like his "over ripe" theory when it comes to prospects. Just because a prospect who sat in GR or over seas a little longer eventually turns into a success, doesn't mean they wouldn't of advanced quicker if they had been thrown right into the mix. I would of loved to have seen more of Tatar last season, and Smith in the playoffs. And don't even get me started on his anti-enforcer stance.



THIS!!

In reality, my post had little to do with the actual Suter and Parise and more with the concept of them. As a free agent, what would attract people to Detroit? The glamour seems to be gone. However, I should have realized that people are too butt-hurt over those two choosing the Wild to be able to think rationally and have an intellectual discussion about such an abstract concept.



$90M for 12 years and $98M for 13 years are ALMOST AN IDENTICAL CAP HIT. $7.5M/yr. vs. $7.538M/yr. Would you still consider it a handcuff if Suter were a Wing for a mere $38,000/yr less?


Never did I say anything about being a second tier franchise. Just because the competition has increased their level through 'parity' does not mean that the Wings have necessarily lowered theirs. However, if there are multiple teams than can be considered legitimate playoff contenders, simply going to Detroit "for a shot at winning" doesn't have the same draw.



Nice personal attack. When you can't, or won't, discuss an issue, feel free to attack another person's fan-ness. My point in the original post was to see what other fans think Detroit can do to possibly change the perception (if there is one) about committing to the Wings. A city in disarray and a team that continually derided as too old and past their prime.

If I were given the choice between two major cities and nearly identical contracts, I'd look at it in a 'numbers' sense as well..
You'll pay 3% more in personal income taxes in Minnesota (Suddenly, your extra $8Mil is $2.94Mil less).
Also, the cost of living is 28% higher in Minneapolis - http://www.bestplace...&city2=52743000

Given factors like that, the dollars make more sense for Detroit.

I realize that Suter/Parise wanted to play together and that is a mitigating factor that you can't place a value on. I just want to discuss the changing dynamics behind the concept.


I think that our offer was $90M for 13 years and not 12 years... difference of $.6M per season... which is NOTHING IMO.
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#26 Crymson

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:54 PM

2 years ago he could have Bogosian for Hudler and Ericsson


It was confirmed long ago that that offer was never on the table. It was a rumor, and one completely without basis.

We are looking at Doan as a savior (he's 35) but why Kenny opted for Emmerton instead of a Milan Lučić?!


Emmerton was ranked #10 amongst North American prospects going into the 2006 draft. This was a far higher ranking than Lucic carried. You are speaking entirely from hindsight, which is completely unreasonable. More, Lucic was passed over 49 times before the Bruins drafted him. Nobody, the Bruins included, deigned to pick him in the first round.

Edited by Crymson, 04 July 2012 - 04:55 PM.


#27 Zetts

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:56 PM

Well original offer was $80M and then someone (I think it was Ilitch) had increased to $90M.

Kenny wasn't prepared to live without Lidstrom. What will be next step... he will bring Lilja back and overpay for Carle...

2 years ago he could have Bogosian for Hudler and Ericsson but he denied that trade because he wants to have veterans... Why Sammy is back? Why we can't give a chance to Nyquist and Brunner on the 2nd line??? I don't care if we are going to win 60 games or 45 games. Time has changed, YOU NEED TO TRUST to your young players. We are looking at Doan as a savior (he's 35) but why Kenny opted for Emmerton instead of a Milan Lučić?! He was supposed to make this team bigger and tougher... "tough addition" is Jordan Tootoo - WTF!!!!!

Yes, that was exactly my point. Perhaps Ilitch initially indicated to Holland that he would only go to 80M, then decided to try to stomach 90M. To go to 98M (for BOTH players, who wanted to play together it seems), people are so sure that Ilitch must have been fine with what would amount to another 16M between the two.

I'll wait to see what happens on defense before throwing him under the bus. There's plenty of time to go.

Lucic was drafted 50th overall. Plenty of teams passed him up. Just as is the case every year. Holland has also had some great steals in the draft. This particular point is just ridiculous to even argue. Scouts give the GMs most of their information. And at that, it's a GUESS. Get over it.

Hey, if GMs were perfect, NY would have already had Parise, taking him at #12 overall in 2003 instead of Hugh Jessiman. See how ridiculous it is to say things like that?

#28 Dominator2005

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:56 PM

1. Lidstrom retiring is out of Holland's control. It's ridiculous to blame him for that.
2. Schultz not coming her was out of Holland's control (he wanted to play in Canada).
3. Again, you're blaming Holland for not offering more of somebody else's money. He did what he could, I'm sure. But if, hypothetically, Ilitch said he wouldn't go higher with the offer, that's not Kenny's fault. In fact, I believe it was Ilitch himself who was the last one to visit Suter.
4. Offensively, we're actually ok. So the signings of Bertuzzi and Samuelsson aren't an issue, nor have they impacted our ability to get anybody that might be better. Also, every player won't be a superstar. They're not actually bad players.
5. Gustavsson was a good improvement as a backup. I don't know what your complaint is there.

Maybe Holland could have made better moves or been more aggressive in some ways. But your critisisms of him are way overboard.



1. I agree with you on this - BUT - he was not prepared to lose Lids.
2. Regarding Schultz - he went to the place where the young players have a chance to develope and play in NHL.

Other than that, I agree with you... and the worst part is that Holland will sign Carle for $25M/5 years and that's even worst than overpaying for Suter...
"Some guys dream about scoring goals, or making big saves... I swear to God I dream about kicking ass in a hockey fight - no other way to say it than I love to do it, its who I am"... Brian McGrattan

#29 Yzermania

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:56 PM

Regardless of these two guys not coming here, if anyone honestly believes this team is as appealing as it was let's say 5 years ago, you are only fooling yourself. In the last two seasons we have lost two ELITE defensemen and our stars are only getting older. I don't think it's as bad as some people are making it out to be, but we certainly aren't the be all-end all like we once were.

#30 Jericho613

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:03 PM

I think another reason why Suter and Parise wanted to play together in Minnesota because its a special place to American hockey players.

Regardless of these two guys not coming here, if anyone honestly believes this team is as appealing as it was let's say 5 years ago, you are only fooling yourself. In the last two seasons we have lost two ELITE defensemen and our stars are only getting older. I don't think it's as bad as some people are making it out to be, but we certainly aren't the be all-end all like we once were.


I wouldn't say we lost 2 Elite defenseman, 1 yeah but your not gonna find another Lidstrom. I agree with the stars getting older, but maybe its time the Red Wings just take a chance with our young guys and see where it goes, its the fans that are spoiled that are fooling themselves. Wings just have to go about building the team a different way. I admit getting guys like Sammy and Tootoo, or signing Bert isn't the way to go, but we have Nyquist and Brunner to go along with Helm, Smith etc, lets see what they bring.

#31 Dominator2005

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:03 PM

It was confirmed long ago that that offer was never on the table. It was a rumor, and one completely without basis.



Emmerton was ranked #10 amongst North American prospects going into the 2006 draft. This was a far higher ranking than Lucic carried. You are speaking entirely from hindsight, which is completely unreasonable. More, Lucic was passed over 49 times before the Bruins drafted him. Nobody, the Bruins included, deigned to pick him in the first round.



When specific player is chosen in the 1st round - then everybody is saying: that we couldn't trade down, when he's chosen lately - then everybody is saying: well there are 29 other teams which decided not to pick him...

Maybe 29 other teams have another needs to adress... Like Detroit need to adress TOUGHNESS but Kenny doesn't want to draft those kind of players, he want's to pick him through waivers...

Emmerton was (in best case) supposed to be 3rd line center - nothing more... unless we have problems with development of young players...
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#32 The Axe

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:04 PM

Exactly, Harry. One or the other. Sign the bigs at any cost or let the prospects play. I dont want to see Bertuzzi, Holmstrom, and Samuelsson suck.

#33 Zetts

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:12 PM

When specific player is chosen in the 1st round - then everybody is saying: that we couldn't trade down, when he's chosen lately - then everybody is saying: well there are 29 other teams which decided not to pick him...

Maybe 29 other teams have another needs to adress... Like Detroit need to adress TOUGHNESS but Kenny doesn't want to draft those kind of players, he want's to pick him through waivers...

Emmerton was (in best case) supposed to be 3rd line center - nothing more... unless we have problems with development of young players...

What needs were addressed by Anaheim in taking Mark Mitera? Or by Montreal in taking David Fisher? Or Sanguinetti, Persson, Vishnevsky, Summers, Corrente, Kana, Sneep, Alexandrov, Swan, Holzapfel, etc, etc, etc being taken by their respective teams. All of these were taken prior to Lucic and have never and will never come close to his impact. Maybe Boston just did a great job of scouting this one particular player among thousands. Or maybe they got lucky. Either way, this is a ridiculous argument - many teams dropped the ball in passing over Lucic.

You draft for talent, not needs. That's a common philosophy. If it was known how good Lucic was, he would have gone prior to the Wings ever making a pick.

Edited by Zetts, 04 July 2012 - 05:15 PM.


#34 Yzermania

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:13 PM

I think another reason why Suter and Parise wanted to play together in Minnesota because its a special place to American hockey players.



I wouldn't say we lost 2 Elite defenseman, 1 yeah but your not gonna find another Lidstrom. I agree with the stars getting older, but maybe its time the Red Wings just take a chance with our young guys and see where it goes, its the fans that are spoiled that are fooling themselves. Wings just have to go about building the team a different way. I admit getting guys like Sammy and Tootoo, or signing Bert isn't the way to go, but we have Nyquist and Brunner to go along with Helm, Smith etc, lets see what they bring.


Raf was quite the D-man, though he struggled his last season here.

#35 Dominator2005

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:19 PM

How do you even know how much they offered Parise? IT's pretty clear that offer was less than what was offered to Suter because he was our bigger need.

So our GM stinks because PArise and Suter wanted to go play BFF on a s***ty team? Please. Suter was all but signed with the Wings until Parise talked him out of it. Holland wasn't gonna criiple the team in the future cap-wise to bring in above average players. If you wanna go all out with money, you wait for Weber, not Suter.



Sorry - I wasn't speaking about Parise
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#36 Barrie

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:19 PM

Those are horrible contracts, we're a lot better off without them.
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#37 Dominator2005

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:23 PM

Those are horrible contracts, we're a lot better off without them.


Detroit's offer to Suter is pretty same than Wild's... Let's hope he's not going to overpay for Carle.
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#38 evilmrt

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:04 PM

Kenny wasn't prepared to live without Lidstrom.


This says it all. We all knew when Lids was turning 40, and he had another possible year, max. Holland had YEARS to prepare for this, and what did he do? He seems a little lost in the salary cap era, now that the Wings' stars from the pre-cap days are gone.

#39 Bring Back The Bruise Bros

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:06 PM

We kicked the tires. I like our team. Our power play is our enforcer.

Prices were a little too steep, too.
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#40 Dominator2005

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:07 PM

This says it all. We all knew when Lids was turning 40, and he had another possible year, max. Holland had YEARS to prepare for this, and what did he do? He seems a little lost in the salary cap era, now that the Wings' stars from the pre-cap days are gone.



This!!!!!
"Some guys dream about scoring goals, or making big saves... I swear to God I dream about kicking ass in a hockey fight - no other way to say it than I love to do it, its who I am"... Brian McGrattan





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