Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 4 votes

Has the Detroit diamond lost it's shine?


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
161 replies to this topic

#41 frankgrimes

frankgrimes

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,200 posts

Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:18 PM

To everyone trashing Holland for that one, some questions.

1. What would you have done differently?
Don't give me the excuses like "he should have" its about what you would have done in order to improve this Hockeyclub.

2. How would you have the handled the Suter & Parise situation?
Keep in mind before you answer, they both wanted to play together and in front of their families. They passesd up on an Original Six franchise and also on the chance of playing alongside Malkin, Crosby and Suter being paired with Letang. So this has nothing to do with Detroit's Diamond losing it's shine.

3. Would you be confident with overpaying for at best class B players in order to squeeze into the playoffs and getting our asses handed to us by Vancouver, LA or Nashville?
or maybe just maybe we should pack it in for this season, see what we have in our young-guns, load capspace and offer the world to Getzlaf and Weber next year?

4. What would you have done to prepare for Lidströms retirement?
Save for Burns who went to the Sharks there was absolutely no one outthere, to improve this defense last year!

5. How much more money would you have offered?
Please notice, it wasn't about money for them.

Aside from the obvious questions some of you should ask themselves if you are truely RedWingsFans or fans of winning? Money and tradition aside, you can't win it every year and sometimes you have to go through a reload/tool episode and personally I can't wait seeing our young-guns learning from their mistakes and becoming better players.

Sorry I know I am the new guy here, but some people are acting like the wolrd is coming to an end just because two elite UFAs decided to go elsewhere.

Edited by frankgrimes, 04 July 2012 - 06:21 PM.

kftx.jpg

 

The Offseason of truth ...

Welcome to hockeytown Jonas aka Lundquist 2 Gustavsson!

blank cheque for The Captain or Jim Star Nil please..


#42 FireCaptain

FireCaptain

    This space for rent.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,918 posts
  • Location:Atoka, TN

Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:22 PM

I've seen articles that say both, so who knows (although it does now look like it was 13 years).. You and I are in agreement though, that the difference is negligible.


I guess it went from 12 to 13 years when it went up from $80M to $90M.

I think that our offer was $90M for 13 years and not 12 years... difference of $.6M per season... which is NOTHING IMO.


http://www.canada.co...1835/story.html

http://www.usatoday....uter/56008136/1

http://www.sbnation....illion-contract

http://detroit.sbnat...ed-wings-rumors

Edited by FireCaptain, 04 July 2012 - 06:26 PM.

Most nights, my posts are brought to you by Heineken and sarcasm.
Success has a thousand fathers, failure is an orphan.
We not score, is hard to win. - Pavel Datsyuk #13

#43 wolverine1817

wolverine1817

    Go Blue

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 159 posts

Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:22 PM

The Axe cries more than my 2 year old... god damn

#44 The Axe

The Axe

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,379 posts

Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:29 PM

Holland sucks. Simple as that. Rafalski was signed too long, Holmstrom was a disaster, bertuzzi is a disaster, samuelsson is a disaster, hudler didnt need to be here, etc., etc., etc. Holland doesnt know what hes doing. Scotty Bowman was our success.

#45 Carman

Carman

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,114 posts
  • Location:Riverview, MI

Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:32 PM

Holland sucks. Simple as that. Rafalski was signed too long, Holmstrom was a disaster, bertuzzi is a disaster, samuelsson is a disaster, hudler didnt need to be here, etc., etc., etc. Holland doesnt know what hes doing. Scotty Bowman was our success.


This guy has got to be trolling.

#46 Dimaline312000

Dimaline312000

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,182 posts

Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:37 PM

Yes I definetly think the Detroit diamond has lost it's shine. After failing so many times to land big-nam players whether it be Free Agency or Trades or whatever Wings haven't done anything big since the Hossa signing and we saw what happen that season. Maybe we need to start seeing if we can unload some of our less valuable players to eventually get a better draft position or something like that. Of course the Wings need to start doing more during the season to draw good players in again. I hate to say it but perhaps we are entering another time of a Stanley Cup Drought maybe not necessarily a Dead Wings era but a time where we don't win the Cup for a while. I HATE the thought of that but unless we can start doing something to prove we are still a contender we may not see a bunch of great players in Detroit for a bit. It would be great to do something big and prove me wrong becasue Wings definetly need to get another Cup SOON. As of right now I'm not really likeing our team moving forward maybe we can do something big to pull us out of the gutter quick. I think Ken Holland is a big part of our lack-luster rosters over the past few seasons. I've been saying it for a while that I'm constantly losing confidence in him. We all like to play the so called "Arm-Chair GM" and think we know what's best I've done it a lot I mean I love Be A GM Mode in NHL 12. However as someone said Holland has had years to prepare for Liddy retiring at some point and should have had someone solid lined up and already on the roster. I realize there wasn't anyone that was really going to replace the best defenseman and no I wouldn't have been comfortable in over-paying Parise or Suter either but, Holland favors bringing back old talent that hasn't go the necessary spark anymore to be valuable to the team. He admits he likes his prospects "over-ripe" and at this point that's BS becasue we could bring them up a season sooner and have them deveolping well on our NHL roster and giving them a chance to prove they belong. Holland is showing his age and we need to get someone else in here with a younger mind and way of thinking becasue the NHL is growing younger and that may be why we haven't made it past the second round of the playoffs in 3 seasons becasue we don't have a spark on the team to help make us Champions again.

Edited by Dimaline312000, 04 July 2012 - 06:43 PM.


#47 Carman

Carman

    Legend

  • HoF Booster
  • 5,114 posts
  • Location:Riverview, MI

Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:43 PM

We haven't signed any big names since Hossa because we didn't have the cap space to sign any free agents.

Suter/Parise didn't chose Detroit because it's a bad situation, they chose Minnesota because they wanted to play in Minnesota.

Holland is fine, he needs to spend his money wisely, we don't have any terrible contracts(Franzen is the worst, but he's not grossly overpaid in other words.) We aren't in a Calgary situation where we are against the cap. Holland can't make a move here just to please fans, he has to make the right moves. It's not about having a team that's good for one year, it's about having a team that is good for the long haul. We have prospects, we have cap space, we have very good pieces(Z+Dat+Kron+Howard) this is not a bad time for the Red Wings.

#48 pucktividi

pucktividi

    the usual suspect

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,332 posts
  • Location:Croatia

Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:51 PM

Ken is not perfect,but I think his plain was not to spend at the deadline and keep cap space to get Suter via free agency.

The whole hockey world thought Nick won't retire yet,so having suter-lidstrom pair for at least one season sounds like a good preparation for the "after Nick" era for me.


Just my 2 cents...

#49 Barrie

Barrie

    Legend

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,941 posts

Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:57 PM

Carman's correct, it's the Cap. Also Suter Parise wanted to play together, and Parise wanted to play in his home state of Minnesota.

George Costanza said it best, "It's not you, it's me"

Detroit's offer to Suter is pretty same than Wild's.


Right, after I heard that, I'm glad we didn't get him.
Lets Go:
Red Wings
Tigers
Roughriders
Lions
Spartans
Pistons

#50 Wing Across The Pond

Wing Across The Pond

    Gabriel's Wings

  • Silver Booster
  • 744 posts
  • Location:LONDON, UK

Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:07 PM

Hi, I'm Gabriel, and occasionally I like to come on and dish out some logic in the face of illogical statements.

In reality, my post had little to do with the actual Suter and Parise and more with the concept of them. As a free agent, what would attract people to Detroit? The glamour seems to be gone. However, I should have realized that people are too butt-hurt over those two choosing the Wild to be able to think rationally and have an intellectual discussion about such an abstract concept.

$90M for 12 years and $98M for 13 years are ALMOST AN IDENTICAL CAP HIT. $7.5M/yr. vs. $7.538M/yr. Would you still consider it a handcuff if Suter were a Wing for a mere $38,000/yr less?

Never did I say anything about being a second tier franchise. Just because the competition has increased their level through 'parity' does not mean that the Wings have necessarily lowered theirs. However, if there are multiple teams than can be considered legitimate playoff contenders, simply going to Detroit "for a shot at winning" doesn't have the same draw.

Nice personal attack. When you can't, or won't, discuss an issue, feel free to attack another person's fan-ness. My point in the original post was to see what other fans think Detroit can do to possibly change the perception (if there is one) about committing to the Wings. A city in disarray and a team that continually derided as too old and past their prime.

If I were given the choice between two major cities and nearly identical contracts, I'd look at it in a 'numbers' sense as well..
You'll pay 3% more in personal income taxes in Minnesota (Suddenly, your extra $8Mil is $2.94Mil less).
Also, the cost of living is 28% higher in Minneapolis - http://www.bestplace...&city2=52743000

Given factors like that, the dollars make more sense for Detroit.

I realize that Suter/Parise wanted to play together and that is a mitigating factor that you can't place a value on. I just want to discuss the changing dynamics behind the concept.


Firstly, I'm glad you put 'ALMOST' in there, because they're no where near identical cap hits. 12 years would get both players off the books in the 39th year, 13 years would be 40th. That's an extra year at $7.5 when they'll most likely be crappy shells of their former selves. So whilst similar in yearly numbers, not so in practice. For a GM that's a difference maker.

As for the second point, if Detroit hasn't lowered their standards then there is still the lure of a chance at winning. What you've put out is close to an unfalsifyable statement, in that I can counter it with an equally valid yet opposite statement and neither can be proved right or wrong. If 'parity' means that more teams have a chance of winning, yet Detroit hasn't necessarily lowered their chances, then yes there will be more teams with a good chance of success yet Detroit will still be in the same strong position only with company. That doesn't mean their appeal for players lowers. See my point? I love my iMac, but those nice new Windows laptops have really closed the gap in regards to performance and technology. Still, iMacs haven't got any worse so I'll stick with them. Make sense?

1. I agree with you on this - BUT - he was not prepared to lose Lids.
2. Regarding Schultz - he went to the place where the young players have a chance to develope and play in NHL.

Other than that, I agree with you... and the worst part is that Holland will sign Carle for $25M/5 years and that's even worst than overpaying for Suter...


Unfortunately he went to a place where they only have young players looking to develop. By the time they have done, they'll be priced out of that team and will spend their prime years elsewhere. And who is to say that a whole team of young player will even develop as they should without veteran presence at all levels? I understand his decision, but don't necessarily agree. That being said, also don't mind that he didn't end up here as there is no guarantee he'd have faired well or suffered in the NHL. Could have been a risk.

Regardless of these two guys not coming here, if anyone honestly believes this team is as appealing as it was let's say 5 years ago, you are only fooling yourself. In the last two seasons we have lost two ELITE defensemen and our stars are only getting older. I don't think it's as bad as some people are making it out to be, but we certainly aren't the be all-end all like we once were.


I must be fooling myself then because this team is always appealing to me. But that's only because I support them and will during thick and thin. They may not be as successful in years to come but I'll still love watching them and will still cheer every goal and wish them to do well each and every night. That's what I understand as 'appealing'.

I read a couple of articles today that reference the Wings' inability to land Suter or Parise. I'm beginning to think long gone are the days of the hometown discount and the 'head to Detroit and you've got a shot at a championship' mentality. With the parity that currently exists, any team has a shot at winning.

Yes, there's a tradition of success. Yes, there's 4 Cups in the last 15 years. However, there's just as many first/second round exits and early playoff exits. Other than consistently making the playoffs - what sets Detroit apart as a choice for someone's career? Nothing tangible.

Sure, there are the intangibles - the history, Original Six, 11 Cups, Gordie Howe, etc.. but those have very little to do a person's day-to-day working life or home life.

I was just pondering all this.. what say you?


http://www.freep.com...ise-free-agency


http://www.foxsports...362&feedID=3706


The first point here, you use in reference to the Wings failing to land two players who decided to sign for a team close to their homes. Everyone has a different 'hometown'. Much like we managed to convincce Mike Modano, only the best American-born player in NHL history, to put off retirement for a year and sign for a hometown discount in the state where he was born and raised. Unfortunately due to unforeseen circumstances it didn't pan out as it could have but proves the point that everyone has different homes.

The second point is a bit of an odd one, because being one of the winningest teams in NHL history, there are far more teams that have more 'first/second round exits' than the Wings. In fact there are far more teams that don't even make the playoffs year on year... Calgary would wish for a first round exit after these recent years.

Even if the Red Wings had matched Minnesota's offers to both, it probably wouldn't have mattered.


“You read today where they’re happy to be going as a pair and they’re both going home,'' Holland said. “Those are some of the things we couldn’t compete against because we’re not (their) home.''



Reference for the above point about 'hometown discount'.

Dominator2005, youre the only one who realizes that Holland lost a race. If hes willing to offer 180 mil to 2 guys, why not go the extra mile and offer 8 mil a season to land em both. In 7 years, cap will be 80-90 million and the extra mil a season will be so meaningless. We lost 2 great players and our gm stinks. Those are the facts.


Non-bold: Maybe Holland didn't lose a race here. He simply got to a point that was financially viable and make the decision not to go over the top and risk future money. Hence not offering an extra $8m. Deciding to not throw more money and risk losing a contract is a stronger, more ballsy decision than doing it. People might criticise him for doing it but it makes this team stronger going forward than if we had them for that long. If it was 7/8 years then maybe not as much, but 13 is a long time and I think he made a good choice. Also the cap doesn't simply rise a la inflation. It can very well go down. We'd be boned if it did (as MIN will be if it does).
Bold: Those aren't facts at all. They are opinions. Why they are not facts? I think 1 is a great player and 1 is a good defenceman who can give solid play but is in no way elite. Also I think Holland is a damn good GM. See, not facts. Opinions.

It doesnt matter why. Facts are: 1) we dont have either Lidstrom, Shultz, parise or suter, and 2) we have bertuzzi, sammuelson, gustavson, and tootoo. That is crappy general management by definition.


1) Those ARE facts (see above point). As are those at 2) yet everything else is once again opinion. Not sure how it's crappy management either considering Lidstrom made his own decision (Holland didn't tell him to retire), Schultz is unproven, and Parise and Suter either wanted too much money or wanted to play closer to home. If anything I'm thinking that limiting yourself with money and thinking about the sustained future of the organisation rather than the next 10 years is a good thing. If you're going on age here as well, Gustavsson and Tootoo are both 27, same as Parise and Suter (I only say as people seem to think that Tootoo is old for some reason?!) Yes they're not as accomplished as P & S but one's a goaltender and one's a physical forward. Bert and Sammy also have the experience over all 3 of Parise, Suter and Schultz which can count for everything down the line.

People are acting like we lost Dats, Z, Flip, Helm, etc in all this and that we're falling apart. I think we'll be ok, maybe not as dominating as we've been in the past, but come on, we're not the Thrashers here.

Posted Image



Check out my blog -The Heid-Out- a cynical mans take on everyday life


#51 Jaymister

Jaymister

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,953 posts

Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:15 PM

It's looks to me as if they decided a while ago to play on the same team. Detroit doesn't have enough space for both of them with the money they got. I would give Weber this contract, not Suter or Parise.

Edited by Jaymister, 04 July 2012 - 11:37 PM.

Cujo is a top 5 goalie in the league- Scott Lucidi


#52 irishock

irishock

    Into the sunset

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,837 posts

Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:24 PM

Holland sucks. Simple as that. Rafalski was signed too long, Holmstrom was a disaster, bertuzzi is a disaster, samuelsson is a disaster, hudler didnt need to be here, etc., etc., etc. Holland doesnt know what hes doing. Scotty Bowman was our success.


Posted Image

bringit.jpg


#53 Wing Across The Pond

Wing Across The Pond

    Gabriel's Wings

  • Silver Booster
  • 744 posts
  • Location:LONDON, UK

Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:35 PM

Holland sucks. Simple as that. Rafalski was signed too long, Holmstrom was a disaster, bertuzzi is a disaster, samuelsson is a disaster, hudler didnt need to be here, etc., etc., etc. Holland doesnt know what hes doing. Scotty Bowman was our success.


Ken Holland is the GM. Scotty Bowman was the Head Coach. I have no idea what you're suggesting.

It's like saying, what has The Colonel done for me recently? He sucks, his herbs and spices suck. It's been around for too long with no change. The Twister didn't work, etc, etc, etc. He doesn't know what he's doing. The manager in KFC Tokyo branch is their success.

They do completely different jobs, which neither could swap and do half as well.

Posted Image



Check out my blog -The Heid-Out- a cynical mans take on everyday life


#54 xtrememachine1

xtrememachine1

    1st Line All-Star

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,434 posts
  • Location:Pittsburgh

Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:38 PM

I don't think their decisions were an indication of Detroit not being the "in place", I think it had more to do with the fact that they wanted to be close to home and play together. There's really nothing we could have done in this situation since that was their plan. I'll be interested to know what their plan will be in 5 years when the team has only made the playoffs twice, Parise is barely reaching 30 goals a year, and they feel the way Rick Nash feels now. Maybe signing a long term deal with a franchise that hasn't done anything in the last 10 years wasn't such a good idea after all.

#55 Yzermania

Yzermania

    In it to win it like Yzerman.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 950 posts

Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:42 PM

I must be fooling myself then because this team is always appealing to me. But that's only because I support them and will during thick and thin. They may not be as successful in years to come but I'll still love watching them and will still cheer every goal and wish them to do well each and every night. That's what I understand as 'appealing'.
I think we'll be ok, maybe not as dominating as we've been in the past, but come on, we're not the Thrashers here.


Way to take things out of context, man!
In this thread, it was obviously meant as being appealing to free agents and players. The way I view the team is no different and never has been and never will be.

#56 Wing Across The Pond

Wing Across The Pond

    Gabriel's Wings

  • Silver Booster
  • 744 posts
  • Location:LONDON, UK

Posted 04 July 2012 - 08:27 PM

Way to take things out of context, man!
In this thread, it was obviously meant as being appealing to free agents and players. The way I view the team is no different and never has been and never will be.


Apologies! Very difficult to gain context on these sorts of things. Reading it back now, I completely see where you are coming from with regards to free agents finding the Wings appealing. My bad.

Yet I do think we're still an appealing team for players to come to as we're incredibly well run, not simply from a business standpoint but also from one that means at every level within the organisation it's a pleasure to work at. I think that means a lot to the majority of players, but of course other teams will hold that special extra something for other players.

Posted Image



Check out my blog -The Heid-Out- a cynical mans take on everyday life


#57 13dangledangle

13dangledangle

    1st Line All-Star

  • Silver Booster
  • 1,825 posts
  • Location:Port Hope, Ont.

Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:17 PM

I know the fans have. The comments I saw on the Parise and Suter threads after they picked the Wild were way offside, they were free agents who owe us nothing for gosh sakes.
....Ladies and Gentlemen Jimmy "F%$*ing" Howard.

#58 StormJH1

StormJH1

    2nd Line Scorer

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 702 posts
  • Location:Twin Cities, MN

Posted 04 July 2012 - 09:28 PM

4. What would you have done to prepare for Lidströms retirement?
Save for Burns who went to the Sharks there was absolutely no one outthere, to improve this defense last year!
.

More about Burns? Really!?

Why aren't people seeing the irony of people ripping the Wild left and right today, while praising Burns, who was their #1 defenseman for years while the team did nothing for years? Burns' concussion problems were as severe as Crosby's! He's an exciting player, but he pinches and gets caught constantly.

There was nothing more Kenny could have done to get Parise and Suter. Let's talk about the next move and evaluate it after we know what it is.


Sent on iPhone using Tapatalk

#59 marcaractac

marcaractac

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,344 posts
  • Location:St. John's, newfoundland

Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:23 PM

It isn't all doom and gloom like some think it is. Will there be growing pains this season? Most certainly. But the Wings are still a team that will make the playoffs. With the right moves along the way, anything can happen. There is a long summer ahead of us yet.

Sure we need some luck on our side. But we are by no means on the way out. Go for an above average shut down defenseman, and trade for a high end top 6 winger, and we'll be fine. Healthy seasons from Eaves, Cleary, and Sammy can possibly each get the Wings 20+ goals. Give Smith a chance to log 20+ minutes and let him grow. Other teams give their kids a chance and it pays off. Why can't it for us? Quincey will be better starting with us right from camp. Ericsson will be better. Kronwall has been known to step it up in Lidstroms absence, so he'll need to be great for us to. Sure a lot of things need to go right, but it isn;t the end of the world. Kronwall/Smith/White will be on the PP. Let E/Quincey/Sammy duel it out for that final PP point man. Focus on the PK for now. MAybe the Monster will settle in nicely and have a breakout year in the NHL. IF not, a healthy Howard playing like the first half of last year will steal us games. I like our tandem there.

Tootoo as a wreckingball will rub off on guys like Abby, Ericsson and Eaves. It will make us tougher to play aginst. Has the team gotten worse than last season? Yes. But we'll be a different team. And as long as they are tougher to play against, things can work out fine.

If guys stay healthy, we'll have a lot more depth up front than last season. The D did take an obvious hit. With Suter they wouldn't fully recover from that. The focus now should be one guy who can log a lot of PK minutes to improve us there. Landing a Nash or a Ryan will make us deadly up front. A couple moves and we'll have no trouble being in the playoff picture. Wait until the trade deadline to pick up that defenseman to put them over the top.

There is a lot of talent on this team, and a lot of pride. They will not just roll over and die. Kronwall, Filppula, Ericsson, Nyquist, Eaves, Cleary, and Smith will all need to have bigger impacts this coming season. And there is also a whole lot of summer to go yet.

Look at LA. they were barely in it all season long, made a couple moves at the deadline, and cruised their way to the cup. I'm never gonna give up on the Wings. And I am confident that come the end of the season, the pieces will be in place to make a decent run of it. Sure a lot of things need to go their way. But this is the Detroitf****** Red Wings we're talking about here. End rant.

#60 gcom007

gcom007

    Hall-of-Famer

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,149 posts
  • Location:Nashville, TN

Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:34 PM

(I posted this in another thread about Holland, but it might be more relevant here.)

I said it last week and I'll say it again, if Holland doesn't land Parise and/or Suter, it's going to be viewed as a failure no matter the reason, and it's going to be yet another off-season failure in a string of off-season failures. These were less his fault than '09's for example, but it's no matter, because he's had enough failures that were entirely his fault at this point.

Everyone wants to defend the guy because we've been so successful, but for the last 3-4 years, the guy has dropped the ball again and again and failed to set us up to be in a good position when Lidstrom retired. You can say that it's a different league now and we're not the draw to free agents we were 3-4 years ago, but that was all the more reason why he should've been making the deals then to set us up for this particularily dramatic off-season. But he's made too many emotional decisions in keeping guys (and gambling on guys...) we developed over pursuing better, proven talent at the expense of home-grown guys that had yet to live up to potential or do so consistently. He's played it too cautious and sat on the sidelines while our value as a destination team to players diminished.

You know, everyone's pissed about losing Suter now, but he should've made a deal to bring in a guy like Suter 3 years ago so he could sit next to Lidstrom and LEARN so we'd have his replacement in place and more ready than ever to take over Lidstrom's role. The fact that it didn't happen was a supremely regrettable and in my mind inexcusable lack of foresight.

I don't claim to be an expert and I know Ken Holland knows a lot more about the game than I do, but too much of this was obvious even to me and it's been obvious to me since we were winning our last Cup, when things were good. I started to see it and started to worry then. And if a casual fan can start to pick up on this, then there's little doubt that Ken Holland was probably aware of it as well, but again, he failed to act. Why that was is still anyone's guess, but again, I think he simply was too close to the situation and made too many moves for emotional reasons that didn't serve the team well in the long run. That is why in my mind he has failed, and failed quite enough to get many if any more chances to manage this team heading into another off-season.
-Elliot...does not panic.





Similar Topics Collapse

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users