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Has the Detroit diamond lost it's shine?


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#141 gcom007

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:25 PM

Yes, but it has little to do with Parise and Suter. That being said, had better decisions been made in the preceding years, I think we would've had those guys signed easily, maybe for less than Holland even ended up offering. We overpaid for unproven mid-level talent on the hope that it'd blossom in time, instead of underpaying legit stars (who you could afford to rig up with a long contract for a low cap hit because their declining years would be stronger than most mid-level guy's peaks) when we had the leverage. We were constantly caught scrambling in the off-season, failing to secure talent, left to chase scraps, and if you don't think that that has an impression on how outsiders view our team, you are absolutely kidding yourself. Had we made wiser moves and been more aggressive to replace top-end talent, we still would likely be "chasing scraps" due to cap issues, but the story would be phrasing it as "bargain hunting." And those "bargains" would end up looking a lot more like descent low to mid-level guys while playing alongside a top notch core.

 

We're not a bottom of the barrel team, but we are no longer a top-tier team. It's not like we weren't one of the few remaining teams in the conversation for Suter and Parise, though from what was said after the fact, Parise seemed less interested in coming here than Suter. But I guess at the end of the day, all the more so if nothing happens between now and the deadline, not landing Suter and Parise certainly will be hanging in people's minds more in the future as more people continue to ponder this question. 


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#142 GMRwings1983

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:31 PM

Kenny finishes every deadline with money he could've spent to better the team.  He then lip services the media that "OMFG everything costs too much!"

 

Rinse repeat.

 

esteef

 

And then he overpays for people like Quincey and Samuelsson, like the above poster suggested.

 

I'd rather overpay for stars then for scrubs.   


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#143 gcom007

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:51 PM

And then he overpays for people like Quincey and Samuelsson, like the above poster suggested.

 

I'd rather overpay for stars then for scrubs.   

 

We've gotten a lot more bang for the buck on our cheap deals and high-end deals than our mid-level deals. That's largely because most of our mid-level guys have history with the team. Cleary and Sammy weren't guys we drafted, but there best years were here and they won Cups here. Then you throw in guys like Franzen, Flip, Hudler, and Ericsson. Obviously you can't just eliminate all of these guys, but Flip and Hudler in particular always seemed like bad decisions to me. Hudler just didn't have what it takes to be consistent and he was small and one-dimensional. Flip was a solid two-way guy who was ultimately unnecessary on a team with Dats and Z, and also likely our most valuable trade asset in years past. Some of the stuff we've had to pass on to keep these guys that we hope will end up looking like bargains is just unfortunate to say the least. And I knew the real deal on Franzen when that deal was signed. It was still at a high-point for the guy offensively, and I was as big of a fan as any and excited that we got him at such a low cap hit relative to his recent production, but there was a muted feeling to the excitement. I remember it distinctly. It was worry. And why not? With the long term of that deal and the problems Franzen had with injuries, his one-dimensional play and the fact that there was still potential for his offensive output could likely be a flash in the pan, you had to raise an eyebrow. Franzen was hot at that moment, but he was never a Datsyuk or Zetterberg. Those guys will contribute something valuable at every point in their careers. When Franzen's not scoring, he's useless. That was as true then as it is painfully true the last couple years. 


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#144 e_prime

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:17 AM

*pulls diamond from pocket*

 

*breathes on diamond*

 

*buffs diamond*

 

Welcome DeKeyser!!

 

...oh, wait.  Not the big name you're looking for?  :ninja:

 

*puts diamond back in pocket*


QUOTE
(AtomicPunk @ February 4, 2010 - 12:16AM)

Imma let you finish, and your cap numbers are all good and all that, but imma let Kenny figure it out. Kenny's cap numbers were the best cap numbers this year.

#145 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 06:46 AM

I get the distinct impression that winning another Stanley Cup, in the near future, is not the primary priority right now. In fact, it's been reported by the media.

Focus has been diverted to another prize.


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#146 Playmaker

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:06 AM

If Detroit has lost it's shine, then so too has Boston, Chicago, LA, Anaheim, the NYR, STL, Philly,  Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver  and a number of other teams that Suter, Parise, Iginla, and Schultz didn't choose. 

 

So one free agent, Hossa, called the Wings a few years ago.  So that made the Wings some huge free agent destination and every player was beating the door down to play in Detroit?   What's funny too is that everyone thinks we won sort of bidding war to get Hull and Robitaille back in the day.  There wasn't much of a demand for either one, especially Robitaille.  He sat out there quite a while before the Wings signed him.  Hasek wasn't a free agent, we got him in a trade.  Same with Shanahan and Chelios.  So who are all these other big ticket free agents that we stole from other teams? 



#147 Johnz96

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:41 AM

A diamond in the rough



#148 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:14 AM

It's still shining strong.



#149 Crymson

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:18 AM

There wasn't much of a demand for either one, especially Robitaille.  He sat out there quite a while before the Wings signed him. 

 

Robitaille had scored 38 goals and 88 points the year before. There was plenty of demand for him. He chose the Red Wings almost immediately because he wanted to win a Cup before he retired, and because picking up Hasek had made them a clear favorite on that count.



#150 Playmaker

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:14 PM

I stand corrected.  It was Hull who didn't sign until late August.  The Wings of 2001-2002 were not all that different from the Wings now.  Aging stars, seemingly no good young players, trying to make one last run at the Cup.  The only thing that differentiates this years team from that team was that there was no salary cap.  Sure, other teams wanted Luc, but most teams didn't have the funds or didn't want to spend the money on him like Mike Ilitich did.



#151 Yeti

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:23 PM

Just remember this...  It is our rebuilding year, and we are still in good shape on getting into the playoffs.  Not too many teams can do that.  The shine may not be as bright this year as it has in past, but after seeing our younger guys play, I think there is a good chance we will be shining just as bright as usual (assuming no idiotic trades or sudden retirements).


Edited by Yeti, 30 March 2013 - 03:24 PM.


#152 GMRwings1983

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:40 PM

I stand corrected.  It was Hull who didn't sign until late August.  The Wings of 2001-2002 were not all that different from the Wings now.  Aging stars, seemingly no good young players, trying to make one last run at the Cup.  The only thing that differentiates this years team from that team was that there was no salary cap.  Sure, other teams wanted Luc, but most teams didn't have the funds or didn't want to spend the money on him like Mike Ilitich did.

 

:lol:

 

Except for having Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Chelios and Larionov already on the roster.  

 

Even if the 2001 offseason signings didn't happen, the Wings would have still had a much better team than this current crap.  Detroit isn't that attractive a team to come to anymore.     


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#153 Number19

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:52 PM

I stand corrected.  It was Hull who didn't sign until late August.  The Wings of 2001-2002 were not all that different from the Wings now.  Aging stars, seemingly no good young players, trying to make one last run at the Cup.  The only thing that differentiates this years team from that team was that there was no salary cap.  Sure, other teams wanted Luc, but most teams didn't have the funds or didn't want to spend the money on him like Mike Ilitich did.

LOL

Except that team had 8 aging stars (+ Prime Lidstrom) while this team has... two? Not to mention prime Grind Line, Homer, Jiri Fisher, a young Datsyuk, at least 3 players with Helm speed (Drapes, Boyd, Dan), etc. That team had the perfect blend of role players to go along with 9 possibly 10 future hall of famers. This current Detroit team is not even close. :lol:

.
Oh I see you mean before Hull and Luc signed? Still not true. We were 3 seasons removed from back-to-back cups with the best goalie and defensemen in the world on our roster.


Edited by Number19, 30 March 2013 - 04:06 PM.


#154 Carman

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 03:56 PM

Well good thing we have the best OHL defenseman, best college defenseman, leading scorer in the AHL waiting in the wings. It could be worse.



#155 FireCaptain

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 07:50 PM

For those that are arguing that signing this Dekeyser kid (who I know nothing of) are proof that this theory is wrong.. consider this. 

 

He signed an entry level contract - money was going to be the same no matter where he went. So, the next two consideration to make are family and hometown. 

 

Just getting out of college with a chance to live near home and family while starting your NHL career with the team that you grew up watching? No brainer. 

 

However, that doesn't mean that the shine is back on the diamond.

 

1.) He's too green. Truthfully, no one knows what he'll do in the NHL. He's not a proven free agent looking for a new town.

2.) The contracts were equal - who's to say if this were an actual free agent signing that Nashville (or any other team) wouldn't have thrown the kitchen sink at him and signed him?


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#156 FlashyG

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:06 PM

For those that are arguing that signing this Dekeyser kid (who I know nothing of) are proof that this theory is wrong.. consider this. 

 

He signed an entry level contract - money was going to be the same no matter where he went. So, the next two consideration to make are family and hometown. 

 

Just getting out of college with a chance to live near home and family while starting your NHL career with the team that you grew up watching? No brainer. 

 

However, that doesn't mean that the shine is back on the diamond.

 

1.) He's too green. Truthfully, no one knows what he'll do in the NHL. He's not a proven free agent looking for a new town.

2.) The contracts were equal - who's to say if this were an actual free agent signing that Nashville (or any other team) wouldn't have thrown the kitchen sink at him and signed him?

 

If someone throws the kitchen sink at a free agent to lure him away from Detroit, then their signing has nothing to do with the "Shine" on "Detroit's Diamond".

 

If he were to sign with the other team when both contracts are equal we should be concerned.



#157 Playmaker

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:41 PM

LOL

Except that team had 8 aging stars (+ Prime Lidstrom) while this team has... two? Not to mention prime Grind Line, Homer, Jiri Fisher, a young Datsyuk, at least 3 players with Helm speed (Drapes, Boyd, Dan), etc. That team had the perfect blend of role players to go along with 9 possibly 10 future hall of famers. This current Detroit team is not even close. :lol:

.
Oh I see you mean before Hull and Luc signed? Still not true. We were 3 seasons removed from back-to-back cups with the best goalie and defensemen in the world on our roster.

How many of those players were still around when the Wings won the Cup in 2008?  So what the Wings did was completely revamp their team while still making the playoffs each season with having a salary cap and no high draft picks. 



#158 Buppy

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 11:20 PM

Kenny finishes every deadline with money he could've spent to better the team.  ...

 

By "every deadline" you mean "last year", when practically nothing was available. Prior to that, the only year we had any significant cap space was the year we won the Cup.

 

 

Yes, but it has little to do with Parise and Suter. That being said, had better decisions been made in the preceding years, I think we would've had those guys signed easily, maybe for less than Holland even ended up offering. We overpaid for unproven mid-level talent on the hope that it'd blossom in time, instead of underpaying legit stars (who you could afford to rig up with a long contract for a low cap hit because their declining years would be stronger than most mid-level guy's peaks) when we had the leverage. We were constantly caught scrambling in the off-season, failing to secure talent, left to chase scraps, and if you don't think that that has an impression on how outsiders view our team, you are absolutely kidding yourself. Had we made wiser moves and been more aggressive to replace top-end talent, we still would likely be "chasing scraps" due to cap issues, but the story would be phrasing it as "bargain hunting." And those "bargains" would end up looking a lot more like descent low to mid-level guys while playing alongside a top notch core.

 

.... 

 

I think you too are letting past seasons blur together rather than accurately remembering the situation. The only top-end talents we've lost since winning the Cup were Hossa, Rafi, and Nick. You say "preceding years" but you're mostly talking about the last two summers.

 

Yes, we had to scramble for bargains the two years prior to that, and almost all of them have worked out well. Bert, Eaves, Miller, almost all the kids we've promoted. You can nitpick a few ways in hindsight that may have let us keep Hossa instead of Franzen or Flip, but I think that pretty dramatically overstates any potential improvement Hossa would bring. Chicago found plenty of ways to struggle the past two years, even with loads of talent.

 

Furthermore, you could say it has everything to do with Suter and Parise. In a sense, losing out on them is in large part what dropped us from among the elite. As good as we've been without them, I don't think it's a stretch to say we'd be at least on the heels of the top contenders with them, depending on who we get rid of to make room. Something of a self-fulfilling prophecy, if you assume they didn't sign with us because we were no longer a top team (though I don't think that had anything to do with it).

 

Having Hossa and Wisniewski instead of Franzen and White isn't really that much of a difference. Less so looking at it on paper (as a UFA would do when evaluating how the team looks) considering the extra salary we'd have to cut to leave the same room for Parise and Suter.



#159 Son of a Wing

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 02:00 PM

It's threads like these that give Wing's fans a bad name....

 

There's 29 other teams and the talent level between the top and bottom has closed greatly since the institution of the salary cap.

 

You all should get used to not landing every marquee player. In fact it's an incredibly naive view to have. The wealth of the league gets more distributed now than ever.

 

This "spoiled child syndrome" mindset is getting really old.


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#160 Crymson

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 03:14 PM

Yes, but it has little to do with Parise and Suter. That being said, had better decisions been made in the preceding years, I think we would've had those guys signed easily, maybe for less than Holland even ended up offering.

 

Seriously, how many times does it need to be said that Parise would have stayed in NJ had Suter signed in Detroit?







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