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Holland comments on Suter & Parise going to Wild


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#41 SaCkaveli20

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:14 PM

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#42 Wingers17

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:21 PM

Honestly, do you really think Suter and Parise are going to put Minn over the top? I am a hockey fan from way back (Mid 70's), and have to admit that i never even heard of Parise until the Stanley Cup (little embarassed about it, lol. People at work come to me for Hockey questions.). I was not aware he was a highly rated forward, until all the talking heads said he was.

Edited by Wingers17, 04 July 2012 - 10:21 PM.


#43 gcom007

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:24 PM

What I have to say to Holland: I hope Yzerman likes your office, I have a feeling he will be occupying it soon.


I said it last week and I'll say it again, if Holland doesn't land Parise and/or Suter, it's going to be viewed as a failure no matter the reason, and it's going to be yet another off-season failure in a string of off-season failures. These were less his fault than '09's for example, but it's no matter, because he's had enough failures that were entirely his fault at this point.

Everyone wants to defend the guy because we've been so successful, but for the last 3-4 years, the guy has dropped the ball again and again and failed to set us up to be in a good position when Lidstrom retired. You can say that it's a different league now and we're not the draw to free agents we were 3-4 years ago, but that was all the more reason why he should've been making the deals then to set us up for this particularily dramatic off-season. But he's made too many emotional decisions in keeping guys (and gambling on guys...) we developed over pursuing better, proven talent at the expense of home-grown guys that had yet to live up to potential or do so consistently. He's played it too cautious and sat on the sidelines while our value as a destination team to players diminished.

You know, everyone's pissed about losing Suter now, but he should've made a deal to bring in a guy like Suter 3 years ago so he could sit next to Lidstrom and LEARN so we'd his replacement in place and more ready than ever to take over Lidstrom's role. The fact that it didn't happen was a supremely regrettable and in my mind inexcusable lack of foresight.

I don't claim to be an expert and I know Ken Holland knows a lot more about the game than I do, but too much of this was obvious even to me and it's been obvious to me since we were winning our last Cup, when things were good. I started to see it and started to worry then. And if a casual fan can start to pick up on this, then there's little doubt that Ken Holland was probably aware of it as well, but again, he failed to act. Why that was is still anyone's guess, but again, I think he simply was too close to the situation and made too many moves for emotional reasons that didn't serve the team well in the long run. That is why in my mind he has failed, and failed quite enough to get many if any more chances to manage this team heading into another off-season.
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#44 ShanahanMan

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:30 PM

I said it last week and I'll say it again, if Holland doesn't land Parise and/or Suter, it's going to be viewed as a failure no matter the reason, and it's going to be yet another off-season failure in a string of off-season failures. These were less his fault than '09's for example, but it's no matter, because he's had enough failures that were entirely his fault at this point.

Everyone wants to defend the guy because we've been so successful, but for the last 3-4 years, the guy has dropped the ball again and again and failed to set us up to be in a good position when Lidstrom retired. You can say that it's a different league now and we're not the draw to free agents we were 3-4 years ago, but that was all the more reason why he should've been making the deals then to set us up for this particularily dramatic off-season. But he's made too many emotional decisions in keeping guys (and gambling on guys...) we developed over pursuing better, proven talent at the expense of home-grown guys that had yet to live up to potential or do so consistently. He's played it too cautious and sat on the sidelines while our value as a destination team to players diminished.

You know, everyone's pissed about losing Suter now, but he should've made a deal to bring in a guy like Suter 3 years ago so he could sit next to Lidstrom and LEARN so we'd his replacement in place and more ready than ever to take over Lidstrom's role. The fact that it didn't happen was a supremely regrettable and in my mind inexcusable lack of foresight.

I don't claim to be an expert and I know Ken Holland knows a lot more about the game than I do, but too much of this was obvious even to me and it's been obvious to me since we were winning our last Cup, when things were good. I started to see it and started to worry then. And if a casual fan can start to pick up on this, then there's little doubt that Ken Holland was probably aware of it as well, but again, he failed to act. Why that was is still anyone's guess, but again, I think he simply was too close to the situation and made too many moves for emotional reasons that didn't serve the team well in the long run. That is why in my mind he has failed, and failed quite enough to get many if any more chances to manage this team heading into another off-season.


Awesome post, agree on all points. He's had ample time to prepare and has simply done NOTHING to improve our team in years.


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#45 Shaman

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:34 PM

I said it last week and I'll say it again, if Holland doesn't land Parise and/or Suter, it's going to be viewed as a failure no matter the reason, and it's going to be yet another off-season failure in a string of off-season failures. These were less his fault than '09's for example, but it's no matter, because he's had enough failures that were entirely his fault at this point.

Everyone wants to defend the guy because we've been so successful, but for the last 3-4 years, the guy has dropped the ball again and again and failed to set us up to be in a good position when Lidstrom retired. You can say that it's a different league now and we're not the draw to free agents we were 3-4 years ago, but that was all the more reason why he should've been making the deals then to set us up for this particularily dramatic off-season. But he's made too many emotional decisions in keeping guys (and gambling on guys...) we developed over pursuing better, proven talent at the expense of home-grown guys that had yet to live up to potential or do so consistently. He's played it too cautious and sat on the sidelines while our value as a destination team to players diminished.

You know, everyone's pissed about losing Suter now, but he should've made a deal to bring in a guy like Suter 3 years ago so he could sit next to Lidstrom and LEARN so we'd his replacement in place and more ready than ever to take over Lidstrom's role. The fact that it didn't happen was a supremely regrettable and in my mind inexcusable lack of foresight.

I don't claim to be an expert and I know Ken Holland knows a lot more about the game than I do, but too much of this was obvious even to me and it's been obvious to me since we were winning our last Cup, when things were good. I started to see it and started to worry then. And if a casual fan can start to pick up on this, then there's little doubt that Ken Holland was probably aware of it as well, but again, he failed to act. Why that was is still anyone's guess, but again, I think he simply was too close to the situation and made too many moves for emotional reasons that didn't serve the team well in the long run. That is why in my mind he has failed, and failed quite enough to get many if any more chances to manage this team heading into another off-season.

Ive made the this argument for years. That Lidstrom will retire and that not having a player waiting in the Wings (joke) and waiting until the last minute would end up biting the Wings in the ass.
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#46 Heaten

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:37 PM

His job is to DO not to TRY. You know you have a cush job when all you gotta do is "try" and its okay.

I dont think Illitch is a TRY type of owner. Holland earned his mulligans but I think hes getting close to or fresh out of them after the last few years of non results.

I am a business owner and if I was in a sector that was as fast moving and cut throat as hockey was, Holland would have one last chance at this point. Otherwise hes costing you money at the risk of no return.

I had to let go our shop foreman for this very reason, he got way to comfortable in his job and finally took advatange of our good graces one too many times. Holland is on borrowed time unless he makes a monster deal to shore up our team.


You are right, Holland should have either A) bashed the players over the head and made them sign, or B) offered $12million per yr cap hit for the next 13 years...because that is how you build a winning team, you overpay.

#47 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:39 PM

What I have to say to Holland: I hope Yzerman likes your office, I have a feeling he will be occupying it soon.


Stevie Y is a legend no doubt. But hopefully he's not signing guys like Carle for 5.5 mill per season unless you have a hard on for Carle. Not mentioning that Sammy's contract is anything great on a somewhat offseason UFA note. But yeah LOVE STEVIE to death but don't think he has proven himself as a GM unless I'm wrong? Seriously though I think at somepoint, Stevie Y will (eventually) be OUR gm. Safe to safe that?

But just thinking the offeseason isn't over and people are judging way too quick. (no pun indeeded) :P

Edited by St. Michael (the Red Wing), 04 July 2012 - 10:43 PM.


#48 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:46 PM

Stevie Y is a legend no doubt. But hopefully he's not signing guys like Carle for 5.5 mill per season unless you have a hard on for Carle. Not mentioning that Sammy's contract is anything great on a somewhat offseason UFA note. But yeah LOVE STEVIE to death but don't think he has proven himself as a GM unless I'm wrong? Seriously though I think at somepoint, Stevie Y will (eventually) be OUR gm. Safe to safe that?

But just thinking the offeseason isn't over and people are judging way too quick. (no pun indeeded) :P

Mainly I just hope that Stevie figures out how to rebuild in Tampa and makes his mistakes and gains experiences there. Then comes back to Detroit as GM for a team that will likely be in need of a serious rebuild.

#49 Heaten

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:01 PM

I said it last week and I'll say it again, if Holland doesn't land Parise and/or Suter, it's going to be viewed as a failure no matter the reason, and it's going to be yet another off-season failure in a string of off-season failures. These were less his fault than '09's for example, but it's no matter, because he's had enough failures that were entirely his fault at this point.

Everyone wants to defend the guy because we've been so successful, but for the last 3-4 years, the guy has dropped the ball again and again and failed to set us up to be in a good position when Lidstrom retired. You can say that it's a different league now and we're not the draw to free agents we were 3-4 years ago, but that was all the more reason why he should've been making the deals then to set us up for this particularily dramatic off-season. But he's made too many emotional decisions in keeping guys (and gambling on guys...) we developed over pursuing better, proven talent at the expense of home-grown guys that had yet to live up to potential or do so consistently. He's played it too cautious and sat on the sidelines while our value as a destination team to players diminished.

You know, everyone's pissed about losing Suter now, but he should've made a deal to bring in a guy like Suter 3 years ago so he could sit next to Lidstrom and LEARN so we'd his replacement in place and more ready than ever to take over Lidstrom's role. The fact that it didn't happen was a supremely regrettable and in my mind inexcusable lack of foresight.

I don't claim to be an expert and I know Ken Holland knows a lot more about the game than I do, but too much of this was obvious even to me and it's been obvious to me since we were winning our last Cup, when things were good. I started to see it and started to worry then. And if a casual fan can start to pick up on this, then there's little doubt that Ken Holland was probably aware of it as well, but again, he failed to act. Why that was is still anyone's guess, but again, I think he simply was too close to the situation and made too many moves for emotional reasons that didn't serve the team well in the long run. That is why in my mind he has failed, and failed quite enough to get many if any more chances to manage this team heading into another off-season.


How can you say that Holland should have signed a Suter-type player 3 years ago when the money wasn't there; they were up against the cap and had injured players. They didn't have much stock in the prospect pool until the last 3years.

Who could Holland trade for they could afford without hurting the team? Heck, I don't remember what defensemen were available 3 years ago. I didn't pay much attention because there was no money, the cap was so low at the time.

What is hurting Red Wings now is the cap increase. Had it stayed the same or went down, they'd been in better position to aquire talent. These guys are getting seriously overpaid. Personally, I think the cap is gonna go down soon.

#50 KrazyGangsta

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:07 AM

I said it last week and I'll say it again, if Holland doesn't land Parise and/or Suter, it's going to be viewed as a failure no matter the reason, and it's going to be yet another off-season failure in a string of off-season failures. These were less his fault than '09's for example, but it's no matter, because he's had enough failures that were entirely his fault at this point.

Everyone wants to defend the guy because we've been so successful, but for the last 3-4 years, the guy has dropped the ball again and again and failed to set us up to be in a good position when Lidstrom retired. You can say that it's a different league now and we're not the draw to free agents we were 3-4 years ago, but that was all the more reason why he should've been making the deals then to set us up for this particularily dramatic off-season. But he's made too many emotional decisions in keeping guys (and gambling on guys...) we developed over pursuing better, proven talent at the expense of home-grown guys that had yet to live up to potential or do so consistently. He's played it too cautious and sat on the sidelines while our value as a destination team to players diminished.

You know, everyone's pissed about losing Suter now, but he should've made a deal to bring in a guy like Suter 3 years ago so he could sit next to Lidstrom and LEARN so we'd his replacement in place and more ready than ever to take over Lidstrom's role. The fact that it didn't happen was a supremely regrettable and in my mind inexcusable lack of foresight.

I don't claim to be an expert and I know Ken Holland knows a lot more about the game than I do, but too much of this was obvious even to me and it's been obvious to me since we were winning our last Cup, when things were good. I started to see it and started to worry then. And if a casual fan can start to pick up on this, then there's little doubt that Ken Holland was probably aware of it as well, but again, he failed to act. Why that was is still anyone's guess, but again, I think he simply was too close to the situation and made too many moves for emotional reasons that didn't serve the team well in the long run. That is why in my mind he has failed, and failed quite enough to get many if any more chances to manage this team heading into another off-season


1- First of all we all knew that Parise was our second option all along, meaning that our only chance to land him was for Suter to convince him to come along which worked the other way around ... Parise convincing Suter to join him in the wild. We offered 3 million less then the Wild, if Parise was a FA next year, Suter would of been a Red Wing on July 1. Well tough luck for us, we just go to develop and keep our own players. It can't be Hollands fault, he was actually the only GM that flew to see Suter in person and gave his best shot at the end of the line it's there decision to come or not but Holland did his part.

2- Of course I will defend my GM that got us 3 stanley cups and assisted for another one! We have never missed the playoffs in his reign as manager, so technically he hasn't been doing anything wrong. How has he actually dropped the ball in the past 3-4 years, you are aware what a salary cap is right and you do know that losing 2-3 players from your current roster is not worth signing one free agent?

3- Trade for Suter, you are not actually serious are you? Suter would be 24 if I'm not mistaking meaning his price would of been very high and you actually think Nashville would of traded to us, a division team. I mean the things you guys come up with is really weak. Here's a reality check everyone YOU WILL NEVER EVER FIND A REPLACEMENT FOR LIDSTROM, even if there was someone tagged along side him. Kronwall has been under Lidstrom so if we go by what your suggesting, we all ready have Kronwall & Ericsson that have been on the team and could of learned by Lidstrom all this time together. Unofortunently it just doesn't work out that way, some people just have that superstart status like Lidstrom and some people just don't. Even if Suter had came year ago and was trained under Lidstrom, there's nothing guaranteeing me that he would be at his level.

4- The way your thinking is very immature, you think by grabbing all quality free agents it would guarantee your chances to win a cup or be competitive. How many times did we see the Rangers fall in that trap?

Let me put you another scernario, if we had Suter and Parise signed each at 7.5m / year as they are now with minny the way your suggesting.

That would be about 15 million in cap space, which we currently have 16 if I'm not mistaking. That would mean we need to clear cap space to sign Quincey Abdelkader ... meaning we need to get rid of some roster players. Filpulla / Franzen are the most obvious choices ... Let's say we trade, Franzen ... 4 million off the books (Don't forget we can't be getting anything in return because our cap is full).

Resign 2 for Abdel, 2 for Quincey " I'm being cheap here " = Cap Room = 0

Following year = 12 million in cap space ... Ian White (3 - 4 milion) - Jimmy Howard (4-5 million) - Valteri Filppula (4 - 5 million) - Jakub Kindl (1 million) - Brendan Smith (1 million). So where's the money to sign our own players or any money to sign free agents? You would be here next year and complaining about how Ken Holland dropped the ball by wasting our cap, losing our own free agents.

Even if sign Jimmy Howard and Valteri Filpula ... We still lost 2-3 players without adding any new. Assuming you only sign Howard and go for a quality free agent which would want 7-8 million a year as well. You are still a loser. Think smart, Holland doesn't just think for today but for tomorrow as well.

I'm so glad we didn't get Parise at that price, sure I would want Suter but come on ... his not even top 5 D in the league and is almost getting Crosby money. Wake up Red Wing Fans, Datsyuk Zetterberg Lidstrom aren't free agents they are homegrown.

It disgust me to see our own fans bashing the #1 manager in the league.

#51 CaliforniaWingsFan

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 12:46 AM

Maybe Suter was overpaid, but we now have Kronwall and White as our top two D-men absolutely forget a cup run, let alone playoffs.

#52 esteef

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:12 AM

I said it last week and I'll say it again, if Holland doesn't land Parise and/or Suter, it's going to be viewed as a failure no matter the reason, and it's going to be yet another off-season failure in a string of off-season failures. These were less his fault than '09's for example, but it's no matter, because he's had enough failures that were entirely his fault at this point.

Everyone wants to defend the guy because we've been so successful, but for the last 3-4 years, the guy has dropped the ball again and again and failed to set us up to be in a good position when Lidstrom retired. You can say that it's a different league now and we're not the draw to free agents we were 3-4 years ago, but that was all the more reason why he should've been making the deals then to set us up for this particularily dramatic off-season. But he's made too many emotional decisions in keeping guys (and gambling on guys...) we developed over pursuing better, proven talent at the expense of home-grown guys that had yet to live up to potential or do so consistently. He's played it too cautious and sat on the sidelines while our value as a destination team to players diminished.

You know, everyone's pissed about losing Suter now, but he should've made a deal to bring in a guy like Suter 3 years ago so he could sit next to Lidstrom and LEARN so we'd his replacement in place and more ready than ever to take over Lidstrom's role. The fact that it didn't happen was a supremely regrettable and in my mind inexcusable lack of foresight.

I don't claim to be an expert and I know Ken Holland knows a lot more about the game than I do, but too much of this was obvious even to me and it's been obvious to me since we were winning our last Cup, when things were good. I started to see it and started to worry then. And if a casual fan can start to pick up on this, then there's little doubt that Ken Holland was probably aware of it as well, but again, he failed to act. Why that was is still anyone's guess, but again, I think he simply was too close to the situation and made too many moves for emotional reasons that didn't serve the team well in the long run. That is why in my mind he has failed, and failed quite enough to get many if any more chances to manage this team heading into another off-season.


I wish we still had +'s cuz I would plus this every day for a week.

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#53 Cali-Wing-Nut

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:19 AM

You are right, Holland should have either A) bashed the players over the head and made them sign, or B) offered $12million per yr cap hit for the next 13 years...because that is how you build a winning team, you overpay.


C) you sit down with Ken and tell him that his total pooch screwing fest the last few years is coming to an end or hes out of a job..

Hes had more than a few years to take care of our defense situation and hasnt. In the mean time he overpaid for Mule and Erricson. Spending money on Quincey was even worse.

I hope you cant say with a straight face that Holland has been making the transac tions of a top tier GM. If so, go back to playing NHL 12

Edited by Cali-Wing-Nut, 05 July 2012 - 02:21 AM.

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#54 Salviaman

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:25 AM

NHL 12 is fun!!!!!!
Think for yourself. Question authority. Throughout human history as our species has faced the frightening, terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are or where we are going in this ocean of chance, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open mindedness, chaotic, confused vulnerability to inform yourself.

#55 Lamen

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:38 AM

Holland have to sign Semin now!! We need a top-six forward, and Semin would be great.
Also trade Nash or Ryan, offer Franzén and Cleary. Those two are the only forwards that I´m ok with leaving. And that probably wont be enough for either Nash or Ryan, so maybe they´ll have to throw in some more, but NO ONE else from our top lines.

#56 LeftWinger

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:11 AM

Filppula and some prospects will get us Ryan..... I say do it. You then sign Mueller to give us 4 legit centers.... Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Helm & Mueller.

Trade a Franzen package for Yandle, sign Doan, sign Semin..... I think that lineup is very, very competitive. Playoffs for sure....better than Minny's lineup...

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#57 Hatethedrake!

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:30 AM

Try to convince Lidstrom to come out of retirement.
Jordan Tootoo will wreck shop.

We need someone like Parise that can penetrate the box.-blueadams

#58 Nightfall

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:45 AM

How can you say that Holland should have signed a Suter-type player 3 years ago when the money wasn't there; they were up against the cap and had injured players. They didn't have much stock in the prospect pool until the last 3years.

Who could Holland trade for they could afford without hurting the team? Heck, I don't remember what defensemen were available 3 years ago. I didn't pay much attention because there was no money, the cap was so low at the time.

What is hurting Red Wings now is the cap increase. Had it stayed the same or went down, they'd been in better position to aquire talent. These guys are getting seriously overpaid. Personally, I think the cap is gonna go down soon.

I stopped trying to talk reason with this group a long time ago.

Remember the "What have you done for me lately" mentality? That is what the LGW forum is all about. Forget the fact that they won 4 cups in the last 15 years. Forget the fact that they routinely spend to the cap. Forget the fact that the management and owners want to win. This is all about everything that could be viewed as a failure at this stage. Holland's fault seems to be the line right now, and that is really sad.

Just do yourself a favor and do what I did, just back out of the thread. Your posts make total sense to me, but to the whining entitled Wings fans who have this negative attitude, its not going to work unless you post a big "Fire Holland" at the end of every post you make.

This kind of entitled buffoonery is just what I would expect to see right now though. When the Wings do have have a couple down seasons, these entitled buffoons will be rooting for Chicago, LA, or some other team because they can't stand rooting for a losing team more than one or two seasons.
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#59 cusimano_brothers

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:32 AM

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28/02/2010: Oh, the irony.

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#60 joesuffP

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 08:50 AM

We're better off w/o those two. If they really cared about winning they wouldn't have forced the team, that's going to employ them for the rest of their career, to give out contracts that would handcuff their franchise as long as they are on the team. These two aren't even cornerstone players to model your team after.





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