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Where do we go from here? Let's try a youth movement


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#21 Dimaline312000

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 05:10 PM

I do like the idea of a youth movement. However some of the names that I see that some of you wanted to let go I say give them so more time and for Abdelkader, I really don't get why so many people hate him but he does do a good job physically and would be great on a line with Tootoo (New Grinde Line). Emmerton is young and I admit his development hasn't been what was probably hoped for him but this was his first season. Give Emmerton at least one more season on this roster to see if he can become a better player than he is now. Yes we do need to move some players so a few trades here an there would be good and might improve our cap a little bit. With the new CBA coming soon who knows what's gonna happen so anywhere we can save money but not sacrifice quality players would be a good thing. It would be great to see if we can make a big trade and land a good solid D-Man but maybe that's still in the works. It's odd becasue it seems the older I get the more I favor the youthful players but back when I was 15-20 I felt the type of team to have was a veteran team, it seems I'm going backwards, lol but a youth movement might be just what this team needs to get a little spark and get us past the 2nd round for the first time in 3 seasons. We'll just have to see what happens I guess!!

#22 LeftWinger

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 05:14 PM

it's not Abby hate, it more so acknowledging the fact that he is good in his role and knowing that if we were to get Ryan or Yandle or Nash, Abby would probably be asked for in the return package...we are just being realistic. I hope he isn't asked for and he stays here. But if you are getting one of those three guys in return...I'd have to say goodbye to him.

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#23 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 05:48 PM

Except Abdelkader is the king of terrible penalties and bad defensive play in the last 3 post seasons, thats a good enough reason for me to want to let him get offersheeted.

Other than the San Jose series two years ago, what are you referring to?

#24 newfy

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:07 PM

Except Abdelkader is the king of terrible penalties and bad defensive play in the last 3 post seasons, thats a good enough reason for me to want to let him get offersheeted.


Terrible penalties? He had one series where that was bad. But the defensive play thing is ridiculous and shows you dont know what youre talking about. I remember Abdelkader shutting down Doan when Babcock bumped ABdelkader to the second line in the playoffs just to match up with him. The wings fanbase cries for more toughness and youth and then say get rid of Abdelkader. There was a thread on HFboards where a lot of other teams were saying they wanted him and that he is one of the better fourth liners because of his versatiity and physical play.

Youre all just a bunch of whiners.

Leftwinger: If youre saying you want him in a trade for those guys, thats different than some people suggesting let him walk and to cut him.

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#25 Shaman

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:14 PM

Terrible penalties? He had one series where that was bad. But the defensive play thing is ridiculous and shows you dont know what youre talking about. I remember Abdelkader shutting down Doan when Babcock bumped ABdelkader to the second line in the playoffs just to match up with him. The wings fanbase cries for more toughness and youth and then say get rid of Abdelkader. There was a thread on HFboards where a lot of other teams were saying they wanted him and that he is one of the better fourth liners because of his versatiity and physical play.

Youre all just a bunch of whiners.

Leftwinger: If youre saying you want him in a trade for those guys, thats different than some people suggesting let him walk and to cut him.

Not just 2 seasons ago, he was terrible in both San Jose series and his performance in the post season drops from almost .25 ppg to .13 ppg. 2 seasons ago in the second series against the sharks he was a -4. As for his toughness well he played he played 7 more games last season but had 40 less hits than 2010-2011 season.
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#26 LeftWinger

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:16 PM

Terrible penalties? He had one series where that was bad. But the defensive play thing is ridiculous and shows you dont know what youre talking about. I remember Abdelkader shutting down Doan when Babcock bumped ABdelkader to the second line in the playoffs just to match up with him. The wings fanbase cries for more toughness and youth and then say get rid of Abdelkader. There was a thread on HFboards where a lot of other teams were saying they wanted him and that he is one of the better fourth liners because of his versatiity and physical play.

Youre all just a bunch of whiners.

Leftwinger: If youre saying you want him in a trade for those guys, thats different than some people suggesting let him walk and to cut him.


Exactly...I believe that other teams would want him in return in most trade scenarios...if they don't ask about him, I am keeping him...

Edited by LeftWinger, 05 July 2012 - 06:16 PM.

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#27 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:20 PM

Not just 2 seasons ago, he was terrible in both San Jose series and his performance in the post season drops from almost .25 ppg to .13 ppg. 2 seasons ago in the second series against the sharks he was a -4. As for his toughness well he played he played 7 more games last season but had 40 less hits than 2010-2011 season.

And he was still the Wings top hitting forward last year. I don't understand how you can complain about offense and hitting in the same post. Abby had the reputation of going out of position to make a hit, and he corrected that mistake while adding offense.

No one on the Wings forward group was within 40 hits of Abby last year. If you're going to complain about hittting, you're looking at the wrong player.

#28 Shaman

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:29 PM

And he was still the Wings top hitting forward last year. I don't understand how you can complain about offense and hitting in the same post. Abby had the reputation of going out of position to make a hit, and he corrected that mistake while adding offense.

No one on the Wings forward group was within 40 hits of Abby last year. If you're going to complain about hittting, you're looking at the wrong player.

I'm complaining not only was he less physical last year but he also gets worse come playoff time. The second part is a deal breaker for top 6 players, let alone a 4th liner. I'll say it again, HE PLAYS WORSE IN THE PLAYOFFS. Why retain a player who can't at least be consistent in the playoffs?
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#29 WorkingOvertime

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:59 PM

I'm complaining not only was he less physical last year but he also gets worse come playoff time. The second part is a deal breaker for top 6 players, let alone a 4th liner. I'll say it again, HE PLAYS WORSE IN THE PLAYOFFS. Why retain a player who can't at least be consistent in the playoffs?

Was Miller good in the playoffs? Cleary? Mule? Bert? Was anyone better in the playoffs this year than last year?

Further, what fourth liner making less than 2m is a consistent scorer in the playoffs?

#30 VM1138

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 07:59 PM

The Red Wings don't have "youth."

Smith is our highest end prospect, and realistically he's not going to suddenly be a star rookie. We have decent depth at forward, but no forwards who have shown an ability to take over a game at a high level. Everyone is high on Nyquist but in all likelihood he'll be a Hudler at best. And beyond that, everyone is a question mark. As Wings fans we naturally overrate our prospects, just like everyone does. But there's no way the 6 or so prospects we have that we all like all make the NHL on a consistent basis. If we're lucky Smith, Nyquist and Tatar will become decent stars 5 years from now.
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#31 Hey man nice shot!

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 07:59 PM

So now that Suter and Parise are signed to life-time contracts with shockingly high average cap hits relative to their abilities (remember when people did 13 year contacts just to keep the cap hit low?) it's time to think hard about where the team should go next. I see three options:

1.) Sign the remaining FA scraps and try to stich a competitive team together.
2.) Make trades to acquire a young #1 dman (think Keith Yandle)
3.) Push forward with an internal youth movement and let the chips fall where they may. If the kids can't step up next summer will be very interesting. If they can step up we'll see just what this team has in terms of the next generation. One benefit of this plan is it will leave the Wings with a lot of cap space that could be useful if the new CBA drops the cap by an appreciable amount (in which case you'll see some serious panic from the teams who are up against the temporary cap).

Personally, I'd take option #3. I'd rather gamble on the kids and get them minutes to grow than wash out in the 1st round again. At least we'd be in line for a decent 1st round pick for the first time in more than 20 years.

With that in mind here's my proposal:

Sign:
Quincey (if and only if a better player can't be had for his spot and he's willing to take 4 mil or less, otherwise release him)

Release:
Abdelkader (Tootoo does everything he does but better and Abs is a terrible face-off guy)
Holmstrom (only so many roster spots left, it'll be a shame to see him go)
Emmerton (let him pass through waivers)

Trade:
Miller (no room, need the roster spot for one of the kids)
Joey Mac (find him a legitimate back-up job, trade him for future considerations if necessary)

Conditional:
Eaves (if he's ready in training camp and earns his spot keep him as the 4th line center since he's got NHL experience in the circle and is fast as hell, otherwise slot Andersson or Sheahan up into his spot)
Mursak (he's the 13th forward in my mind)

On deck:
Tatar, Andersson, Sheahan. All three should get an extended look through the entire pre-season and if any of the three beat an NHLer on the roster for his job make the trade that brings them onto the team. It's time to give the kids a chance to drive.

Obligatory line-up from cap geek:

FORWARDS
Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m)
Damien Brunner ($1.350m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)
Danny Cleary ($2.800m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Jan Mursak ($0.550m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Kyle Quincey ($3.750m)
Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m) / Brendan Smith ($0.875m)
Ian White ($2.875m) / Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $55,746,212; BONUSES: $462,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $14,453,788

Notes: Subtly probe the market to see if there's interest in Cleary from one of the Canadian teams. Float the idea of a trade with Cleary. He's got the NTC (assuming it came back after the window that opened this past trade deadline) but there's always a chance he'd be excited to come home to Canada.

Longterm outlook:
Give Smith, Nyquist, Tatar, Sheahan and Andersson every opportunity to make the team and earn a perminant spot. If they can bump an NHL player off the roster who is performing at or very close to their level then so be it. The #1 priority should be to fully evaluate just what the team has in the cupboard. If the kids are found lacking it's time to make some bold moves.
This plan very well may reduce the chances this team has to make the playoffs but I believe that it is in the long-term interests of the team.

Edit: seriously, can we please have spell-check functionality with this new UI? My normal Firefox spellcheck doesn't work here anymore.

I don't like the idea of doing this, but it may very well be in the cards.

#32 Andy Pred 48

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:31 AM

i watched nearly all of the WC this year and my take on it is this;

Tatar was great for the Slovaks on their 3/4 lines. he ave just under 14 mins a game and had 2+3 in 10 games AND a silver medal. deserves a roster spot in my opinion.

Brunner ave just under 19 mins a game for the Swiss and was a point a game guy over the 7 games. Was great against the Canadiens in his countrys 2-3 loss where he was a constant threat and had a 1+1 game. Has already been given the #96 so make what yoou will of that. Great pick up by Wings

Semin was an absolute beast when he got there and played on Pasha's wing. 5 points in the 3 games he played and just over 17mins ice per game. I would love to see him alongside Pav, but i would also like the Wings try and get either Nikulin on D or Popov Fwd from the Russia side.



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#33 Richdg

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:08 PM

Youth movement yet get rid of one of our better young players. Odd to me. He has played 2.5 seasons and has gotten better each year. In the minors he has had better numbers than Helm, Mursak, Emmerton etc.... he is one of the top 3 or 4 fastest skaters on the team. Not sure where the slow stuff comes from. Mickey raves about his speed during the broadcasts.
When dealing with young players, it is the 3/4th years that truely start to see what you have. Same was true with big E. Go back and watch Chelios rave about him at Nickeys retirement PC. fact is it takes time for guys to adjust to the higher level. It hasn't helped that the RW haven't settled on a position for Abby either. Is he a wing or a center. They need to make up their minds and let him play. The best guy to compare Abby to is cleary. No he doesn't have the most talent on the team. But he works hard and gives you everything he has. That is perfect from 3/4 line guys.

#34 GoWings1905

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 12:14 PM

The Red Wings don't have "youth."

Smith is our highest end prospect, and realistically he's not going to suddenly be a star rookie. We have decent depth at forward, but no forwards who have shown an ability to take over a game at a high level. Everyone is high on Nyquist but in all likelihood he'll be a Hudler at best. And beyond that, everyone is a question mark. As Wings fans we naturally overrate our prospects, just like everyone does. But there's no way the 6 or so prospects we have that we all like all make the NHL on a consistent basis. If we're lucky Smith, Nyquist and Tatar will become decent stars 5 years from now.


Excellent post. I couldn't agree more. The Red Wings can't embrace a youth movement and expect to still contend at the same time. They just don't have the resources to do so -- picking in the 20's every year for two decades isn't going to get you the talent necessary to pull a Pittsburgh or Edmonton maneuver.

I believe there has to be a level of "internal development" for any team, just given the structure of the salary cap in the NHL today. However, the Red Wings still overwhelmingly have to rely on free agency/trades to obtain better talent now because they don't pick high enough in the draft ever. We're incredibly lucky the scouting department found gems in Zetterberg and Datsyuk in the later rounds, but that is hardly commonplace.

The worst place to be in the NHL is a fringe team and the Red Wings are sitting there with this roster. Certainly not a championship contender, but definitely haven't fallen off enough either (yet) to pick top five. Holland is in an extremely delicate position -- maybe they believe still a couple pieces (Semin/Doan) puts the Red Wings back in the contender conversation. Or do you give up what few true assets the team has to get someone like Nash or Yandle? If the intention is to remain competitive for the Stanley Cup, then Holland has no choice but to take some risks now. This is maybe a borderline playoff team as we speak.
 
 
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