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#41 Wings_Toledo

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:44 PM

My question is, will Suter and Parise have the patience to stick with this team if they go through 2 or 3 unsuccessful seasons? And by unsuccessful I mean anywhere from not making the playoffs to not making the Cup Finals. It's hard for me to imagine both of them staying with Minnesota for more than 5 seasons, let alone for the duration of their contracts.

#42 LeftWinger

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:50 PM

I also do not understand that. He would be a solid second line center on half (if not more) NHL teams.


Ok, you said it "HE WOULD BE A SOLID SECOND CENTER..." that is what Anaheim wants in return...nobody is s***ting on Filppula. But you are not going to get Bobby Ryan for our 13-16th forwards in trade...geez!

Anaheim wold not take Franzine from us...they want Filppula. Filppula almost guarantees Selanne returns for another year, he has said for awhile now he wants to play with Flip. Filppula is both our trump card and the key to this trade...I too would rather trade Franzine before Flip....or niether at all and just give them five 13th forwards for Ryan, but it doesn't work that way...

Filppulla/Mursak/Tatar/Draft Pick should get it done. Great 2nd line center and two NHL ready prospects...we will not miss those two guys...first of all we'd have Bobby frickin Ryan and our stable is still full of younsters:

Jarnkrok, Pulkkinen, Jurco, Frk, Sheahan, Sproul, Tvrdon, Athanasiou, Bodin, McKee...the future will be fine!

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#43 kipwinger

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:19 PM

While I was ideally trying to turn this thread into something other than a "What's Next for Holland" discussion, I'm pleased that I've finally started a thread that has actually held a discussion for more than a page.

Self high five *******!!!!!!!

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#44 LeftWinger

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:28 PM

My question is, will Suter and Parise have the patience to stick with this team if they go through 2 or 3 unsuccessful seasons? And by unsuccessful I mean anywhere from not making the playoffs to not making the Cup Finals. It's hard for me to imagine both of them staying with Minnesota for more than 5 seasons, let alone for the duration of their contracts.


Honestly yes...Thier team is at it's best point right now...They have most of their lineup from last year and have added the bobsie twins...their window is in the first three years to win a Cup...they have to re-sign Backstrom after the season, Clutterbuck too. Heatley and Gucchi will be in the last year of their contracts and will be looking for hefty raises. Cullen and Bouchard are also due up next July...their team can get way worse in three - four years. I think if they don't win a Cup within 3 years, then team will be in anther rebuild session in 5 years (especially considering the way ownership gives up on young players too soon) and that is when I believe Suter gets divorced and unfriends Parise from facebook because he will blame his wife's family and Parise for his stupid mistake...Parise will hang in there, because he doesn't care to win...if he did he'd be in Pittsburgh right now...

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#45 dat's sick

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:26 PM

I personally think 2-3 years from now is when they'll be a contender, unless they screw up the development and retaining of their prospects. They need to get better defense and probably add a little more scoring depth. They have a pretty good situation but there are no guarantees for success. Lots of times when a team makes a big splash at the trade deadline or in the offseason they'll be hyped up as cup favorites, but it rarely works out so easily.

How will Suter react to being "the guy"? He's had a comfy position in Weber's shadow in front of Rinne. Parise will also be pressured to produce on a team in desperate need for scoring.

Lots of things can go wrong, and with those massive contracts come massive expectations and what if the first half of the season doesn't go so well for them? The fans could quickly turn on them.

Or they win 5 straight cups. Who knows.

#46 vladdy16

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:50 PM

Realistically, what kind of a team can Holland ice these days that will get fans excited? We've been fortunate enough to ice some of the best players to ever grace the NHL, and there was never anywhere to go but down eventually. For those of you fortunate enough to have never seen the Wings struggle before, this is the beginning of a very hard reality. Sorry. We're here for you.
Not to say that the Wings are going to be cellar dwellers, but our lofty expectations are going to come down a notch or two. I'm still extremely grateful for the last 20 years and thrilled I got to see it. Can't wait to see it again!
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#47 GoWings1905

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Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:14 PM

Yea see that's another thing. "Continuing the winning tradition." Ever since the lock-out this team has been cautious in making big changes to the roster. Signing Suter would've been awesome at the right price and term length. And I guess it would've been great if he was signed for 13 years and $90m like Kenny offered. But only because we are desperate for D-men, not because Suter is that good. IMO, these new contracts are getting way out of hand. How the hell does Parise deserve $12m this season while Jimmy Howard gets only $2.25m? It's outrageous.

As far as trading for Ryan or Yandle, or even Nash...
I think it would be great if we had these guys on our team because we have the cap space. But if you trade Franzen and Filppula and some youth/picks for Ryan or Nash, what have you really added? Same goes for adding Yandle.

Edit: Btw, isn't it time you changed your avatar? :tounge:


Agreed. I really like Ryan Suter, but he also benefitted greatly from the free agent class he was a part of. I'm not sure he is worth that type of money either, but when factoring in the current climate in the NHL and the Red Wings absolute need for a top d-man, it was ultimately a price that at least they attempted to pay. If Suter comes to Detroit, this entire off-season takes a completely different feel when you combine it with the moves Holland had already made. Unfortunately it didn't go in the Red Wings favor and with Lidstrom/Stuart leaving too, not getting Suter feels like a major deflator.

:lol: Yes, the avatar definitely needs a change now. I'm still in a little denial that Suter isn't a Red Wing.
 
 
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#48 Crymson

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:23 AM

$50 sounds fair. Question is, how much will you donate if I'm right?


I'm not the one who is making guarantees.

#49 kipwinger

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:10 AM

Yea see that's another thing. "Continuing the winning tradition." Ever since the lock-out this team has been cautious in making big changes to the roster. Signing Suter would've been awesome at the right price and term length. And I guess it would've been great if he was signed for 13 years and $90m like Kenny offered. But only because we are desperate for D-men, not because Suter is that good. IMO, these new contracts are getting way out of hand. How the hell does Parise deserve $12m this season while Jimmy Howard gets only $2.25m? It's outrageous.

As far as trading for Ryan or Yandle, or even Nash...
I think it would be great if we had these guys on our team because we have the cap space. But if you trade Franzen and Filppula and some youth/picks for Ryan or Nash, what have you really added? Same goes for adding Yandle.

Edit: Btw, isn't it time you changed your avatar? :tounge:


I don't think it's so much that you've added anything, but rather that you've changed. It certainly doesn't work in every case, but if you repeatedly try the same thing and it doesn't work, then there's really no point in sticking with it. Years ago, the Wings traded a first round pick, the best power forward they had, and a sure fire Hall of Famer for Brendan Shanahan, not because they were getting the best player in the world, but because they were getting a quality (and different) look after years of trying the same things without success. I think that the team is in a similar situation now. Obviously, the talent we have now is good. I'd love to keep Flip or Franzen or Cleary or Bert or whomever, if possible. But we keep trying that same lineup, and we keep getting the same results. Maybe we don't have to constantly upgrade, maybe a lateral move (just for the sake of change) is what we really need. I'm obviously not an NHL general manager, but there's a point where you have to admit that the status quo is just not working anymore. Perhaps that time is now.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#50 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:46 AM

You can't compete for real for the Cup when your defense looks like

Suter-Gilbert
Spurgeon-Scandella
Stoner-Falk/Kampfer

They'll be improved, but they are not cup contenders. And as down as everyone is right now, the Wings are still a better team then the Wild. As are, LAK, CHI, SJS, VAN, STL, and PHO(for now). So they'll be in a fight for 6-8th in my opinion.

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#51 The Axe

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:08 PM

Wings need a top 6 fw and a #1 d. Semin and Yandle and they stand a chance next year.

#52 St. Michael (the Red Wing)

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:15 PM

Wings need a top 6 fw and a #1 d. Semin and Yandle and they stand a chance next year.


Wrong thread brah.

#53 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:47 PM

And that's another thing. Holland needs to understand the press and excitement that come with signing new players. He's given us NOTHING to be excited about.

I can't wait to see next season's Red Wings commercial.

"The 2012 Detroit Red Wings.......we got Tootoo!!!".


Wait, so you're advocating Holland mortgages the team's future to provide short term buzz? No thanks.

Realistically, what kind of a team can Holland ice these days that will get fans excited? We've been fortunate enough to ice some of the best players to ever grace the NHL, and there was never anywhere to go but down eventually. For those of you fortunate enough to have never seen the Wings struggle before, this is the beginning of a very hard reality. Sorry. We're here for you.
Not to say that the Wings are going to be cellar dwellers, but our lofty expectations are going to come down a notch or two. I'm still extremely grateful for the last 20 years and thrilled I got to see it. Can't wait to see it again!


Leave it to Vladdy to inject the forums with some realism. Agreed 100% man.
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#54 atodaso

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:55 PM

I also do not understand that. He would be a solid second line center on half (if not more) NHL teams.


It's probably just people feeling like he has peaked and this would be a good time to trade him because you would get the maximum in return. I can understand why some people feel that way. Still, I'd rather have Flip here.

Filppula almost guarantees Selanne returns for another year, he has said for awhile now he wants to play with Flip. Filppula is both our trump card and the key to this trade...I too would rather trade Franzine before Flip....or niether at all and just give them five 13th forwards for Ryan, but it doesn't work that way...


Then he should sign with us. :lol:

Agreed. I really like Ryan Suter, but he also benefitted greatly from the free agent class he was a part of. I'm not sure he is worth that type of money either, but when factoring in the current climate in the NHL and the Red Wings absolute need for a top d-man, it was ultimately a price that at least they attempted to pay. If Suter comes to Detroit, this entire off-season takes a completely different feel when you combine it with the moves Holland had already made. Unfortunately it didn't go in the Red Wings favor and with Lidstrom/Stuart leaving too, not getting Suter feels like a major deflator.


Yea, what can you do. It's just the way the NHL has gotten to be. These long term contracts are ruining the league. Maybe another lockout is looming?

I don't think it's so much that you've added anything, but rather that you've changed. It certainly doesn't work in every case, but if you repeatedly try the same thing and it doesn't work, then there's really no point in sticking with it. Years ago, the Wings traded a first round pick, the best power forward they had, and a sure fire Hall of Famer for Brendan Shanahan, not because they were getting the best player in the world, but because they were getting a quality (and different) look after years of trying the same things without success. I think that the team is in a similar situation now. Obviously, the talent we have now is good. I'd love to keep Flip or Franzen or Cleary or Bert or whomever, if possible. But we keep trying that same lineup, and we keep getting the same results. Maybe we don't have to constantly upgrade, maybe a lateral move (just for the sake of change) is what we really need. I'm obviously not an NHL general manager, but there's a point where you have to admit that the status quo is just not working anymore. Perhaps that time is now.


I agree with everything you said. And if that ends up happening I'm sure the Wings will benefit in some way. But it is a gamble, and even Holland can't win them all. But you're definitely right about something needing to change. Otherwise we're looking at another 100pt season and a 1st/2nd round exit. I just wish it was a signing (Doan, Semin?) rather than a trade.

#55 LeftWinger

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:47 PM

I'd rather have Ryan here than Filppula and Selanne...why? Cost...

Ryan is signed for 3 more years at $5.1M...Flip is UFA next July and will get $5M+ somewhere if not here...Ryan at $5.1M is far better than Flip at $5M+. I like Flip a ton! But if he is the key in getting Ryan....DO IT! Kenny.....Get it DONE!

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#56 The Axe

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 01:53 PM

Z, Dats, and Flip need to stay.

#57 centcougar07

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:38 PM

all the naysayers on here are ending our season already? Holland isn't done... Doan is still there, there was just a report that Holland is in the hunt of Bobby Ryan, so it's not like we have sunk to the deepest depths of the Central division. I would say if Holland got Ryan, Doan and Kubina, other than Suter being better than most of our D, and honestly, I would put Kronwall right up there with him...Kronner had 37 points being on the 2nd pairing, Suter had 46 points on the 1st pairing...when it comes to hitting, Kronwall eats him up all day. I would give Suter the nod defensively, but other than that, pretty equal...except when it comes to pay...

Parise actually had better centers in NJ. Koivu is really good, but there is only room for one leftwing on his line and Heatley will start bitching if he gets bumped off of it...he is the f***in allstar you know...

It's not like I am saying they aren't any better, of course these two makes them tons better, but I think Parise scores less in Minny than he did in NJ...I could be wrong, but we will see. I am more afraid of the Blues (:puke: oh....excuse me that just snuck up on me) than I am of the Wild... They are not in the central so we won't see them as much as I'd like, but no, I am not afraid. As long as Holland isn't done. Ryan, Doan, Kubina and I think Holland is ready to roll...

FORWARDS
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Bobby Ryan ($5.100m)
Shane Doan ($5.750m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Damien Brunner ($1.350m)
Gustav Nyquist ($0.875m) / Darren Helm ($2.125m) / Mikael Samuelsson ($3.000m)
Todd Bertuzzi ($2.075m) / Justin Abdelkader ($1.500m) / Jordin Tootoo ($1.900m)
Drew Miller ($0.838m) / Patrick Eaves ($1.200m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Niklas Kronwall ($4.750m) / Pavel Kubina ($3.000m)
Kyle Quincey ($3.550m) / Ian White ($2.875m)
Brendan Smith ($0.875m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($3.250m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m) /
GOALTENDERS
Jimmy Howard ($2.250m)
Jonas Gustavsson ($1.500m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $70,200,000; CAP PAYROLL: $65,383,712; BONUSES: $462,500
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $4,816,288

It's not as pretty as having Parise and Suter on there, but it's still a very VERY good roster...


Well the list of times you have been right is certainly not long or distinguished, especially when it comes to the Wild lol

But let me ask you this? What if Holland gets nobody? What if Doan and Ryan don't end up in Detroit? What if he only signs mediocre bottom line/bottom pairing type players? That roster would look pretty pathetic if you ask me with the only notable acquisition being that of Jordin Tootoo.

Or conversely, what if he DOES get Doan and trade for Ryan? You're getting a guy who is turning 36 soon and who hasn't topped 60 points since 2008. He's a leader, sure. But not the answer offensively. Ryan would be a considerably better option. He's pretty much a lock for 30 goals and 60-75 points. That would really help, no doubt, but what are you going to have to give up to get him? Letting go of Bobby Ryan would blow a hole through Anaheim's already abysmal roster and they won't give him away. They hold all the cards on him. He still has a few years left on his deal so if the Ducks don't like the packages they are offered for him then they can just hold on to him and he can either play or rot on the bench if he refuses. Point is, the Ducks are going to need A LOT in return. 2 NHL players, 2 prospects and a pick will likely be the demand. At least something like that. So the Red Wings would need to give up probably Filpula and Abdelkader along with a couple of top prospects. The Ducks just lost Schultz to Edm. so they would probably need Smith to be included and then they would also ask for either Nyquist, or any two of Tatar, Jarkrok, Jurco, or Pulkkinen. Plus a high pick, probably a second rounder.

Obviously that is a lot but you can bet your ass that Anaheim won't do any deal for Ryan where they don't make out like bandits because, like I said, they hold all the cards and are in a sort of rebuild. I fail to see how a deal anything like what I mentioned would benefit the Red Wings.

#58 Crymson

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:50 PM

I fail to see how a deal anything like what I mentioned would benefit the Red Wings.


You'd prefer that there be nothing anywhere that could benefit the Red Wings. You have made this clear.

Edited by Crymson, 08 July 2012 - 04:50 PM.


#59 Ekmanc

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:54 PM

They do have some really nice young talent in Granlund and Brodin so if they can keep developing their prospect they might be really dangerous in a couple of years.

#60 Crymson

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:23 PM

Wait, so you're advocating Holland mortgages the team's future to provide short term buzz? No thanks.


That's exactly what he's advocating. He advocates it at every single trade deadline, too.





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